Author Topic: .30-30 Lee die questions (Read 1617 times)

GH1 · « **on:** July 28, 2011, 08:50:01 AM »

I bought a 3 piece die set sunday consisting of a sizing/decapping, seating/crimp, and factory crimp. I'm surprised to find no flaring die, do necked cartridges not use these?
I loaded a couple of dummy rounds yesterday and I got the bullet to go into the case, but I shaved of some lube in the process. Is this normal?
This is my first go around with necked cartridges and I'm finding them to be a bit foreign.
GH1

OR-E-Gun Bill · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2011, 09:29:22 AM »

If ya need a wee bit more flair on the case mouth here's one option:
LEE Universal Expander Die

fastchicken · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2011, 10:12:57 AM »

Correct, no flaring is required with bottleneck rifle cases but it sounds like you're loading cast bullets in which case you will get a little shaved off time to time. I get the same thing when I load cast bullets in my 30-30 but I don't worry about it. You'd probably never notice a difference in performance.

GH1 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2011, 10:32:11 AM »

You're right chicken, I'm loading cast. Tell me, what powder & bullet weight do you use in yours? I'm going with a 165 g RNFP from Meistercast & AA5744.
If loading becomes troublesome I'll look into an expander die but for now I'll try it without one.
Thanks for the info guys,
GH1

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2011, 10:47:13 AM »

Quote from: fastchicken on July 28, 2011, 10:12:57 AM

Correct, no flaring is required with bottleneck rifle cases but it sounds like you're loading cast bullets in which case you will get a little shaved off time to time. I get the same thing when I load cast bullets in my 30-30 but I don't worry about it. You'd probably never notice a difference in performance.

Another thing is to make sure you have a good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth .

stimpy

fastchicken · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2011, 11:25:46 AM »

I'm loading a 165gr flat point from Grafs. Don't recall what make, I'm at work now but I'll check when I get back home. I'm using H4895 and used the reduced load instructions from Hodgdon's website under their youth loads. Shoots around 1500 If I remember correctly.

BCB · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2011, 01:34:06 PM »

IF you are going to reload cast boolits more than just casually, you really should get some type of expanding system for cast boolits…

RCBS makes a die and you change stems and expander plugs. You purchase the expander plugs for the size you wish to make the neck inside. This is the setup I use for my cast boolits…

Lyman makes the “M” die which I am not familiar with, but it serves that purpose…

I have the Lee Universal expander and it only expands the case mouth; you get no expanding inside the neck. It is O.K. but not the best for cast boolits…

As I said, if you are going to reload considerable cast, get he expanders meant for cast…

I shoot the 311041 (170+ grains) and I have used 5744 with limited success--not the best. 23.5 grains @ 1801 fps...

Don't forget the slow burners, I have had good luck with WC-852 (4350 to 4831 burn range). Very good accuracy from a Model '94 @ approximately 1800 fps...

Trail Boss was also acceptable @ 1058 fps...

Good-luck…BCB

GH1 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2011, 02:20:23 PM »

Thanks for all the advice everybody.
GH1

huntducks · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2011, 07:07:18 AM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on July 28, 2011, 10:47:13 AM

Quote from: fastchicken on July 28, 2011, 10:12:57 AM
Correct, no flaring is required with bottleneck rifle cases but it sounds like you're loading cast bullets in which case you will get a little shaved off time to time. I get the same thing when I load cast bullets in my 30-30 but I don't worry about it. You'd probably never notice a difference in performance.

Another thing is to make sure you have a good chamfer on the inside of the case mouth .

stimpy

+1 here

fastchicken · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2011, 07:52:33 AM »

The 165s I have are Suters Choice, they were $8 for 100 last year. They look like the Missouri Bullet co. 165s now on Graf's website but I got mine at a different Grafs. Both in Mo. but not sure how or if they're related.

Bob A · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2011, 03:35:19 PM »

I have the lee universal expanding die and still use it for some cartridges - BUT - I use my Lyman M die for cast bullets in the 30-30. It is really slick.

Bob A

BBF · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2011, 06:53:13 AM »

GC bullets will eliminate the lead shaving as well

Sensai · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2011, 07:31:58 AM »

GH1, the difference between the neck expansion on the bottle necked cartridge and straight wall cartridge is when it's done. If you look at the de-priming stem on the bottle neck sizing die you'll see a larger portion near the de-priming pin. That's the expander ball, and expands the neck when it's drawn out of the case. Since a straight wall case is basically the same diameter all the way down, this wouldn't work with them. There has to be a seperate neck expanding step. This works well on both types of cartridges for jacketed bullets, but the opening of the neck needs even more expansion to prevent shaving or lube scraping with cast bullets. To differentiate this from normal expansion, it's sometimes called flaring the neck. That's where the M die, universal flaring die, closed needle nosed pliers and other implements come in. The selection is vast, and there are advocates for each of them. I think that I've used most, and they all work. You pays yo' nickel and you takes yo' chance.

res45 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2011, 09:30:07 AM »

As many have mentioned bottle neck rifle cases don't need to be flared when using jacketed bullet a good chamfer will do just fine. Jacketed bullet are smaller in dia. and have a harder copper jacket so seating those with the standard 30-30 die set is never an issue.

Cast bullet on the other hand are softer and larger in dia. general .001 to .002" flaring the case mouth on bottle neck rifle case when using a cast bullet is the common practice with both plain base and gas check bullets especially with a plain base bullets. Shaving lead off the base or sides of a cast bullet just opens you up to several opportunities for leading to occur by imparting defects in the bullet and reducing it's dia.

For low velocity plinking loads where high pressure and high velocity isn't an issue you may not notice anything but if your shooting both high pressure and high velocity 30-30 plain base cast bullet load those defects can open the door for gas cutting and loss of the lube seal which can cause leading.

I flair all my bottle neck rifle cases that I load cast bullets in using the Lee Universal flaring die,flaring the case allows the bullet to seat easier without shaving any lead off the bullet. I also use the appropriate size expander ball to resize the case neck so as not to downsize the softer cast bullet. The .311 dia. espander ball from my RDBS 54r resizing die works perfectly fine for neck expansion in all my 30 cal. rifle cases when using both plain base and gas check bullets.

I use two primary loads in my 30-30 using the Lee gas check 170 gr. RNFP I cast myself,the first is my general purpose plinking and small game load,bullets are cast from straight WW alloy BHN 12 bullets drop form the mold at just a hair over .310 dia. they get two light coats of Lee Alox/JPW lube no gas check is applied and I push them at 1200+ fps. with 8.0 grs. of Alliant Red Dot Lyman Cast Bullet manual data.

For my full house hunting loads I cast the same bullet from a 30:1 Lead/Tin alloy BHN 9,gas check are applied with a little imperial sizing wax on my fingers and a .311 Lee sizer then ranched dipped in Alox/JPW lube to fill the lube grooves. After drying overnight the bullets are push back through the sizer gas check first to clean off the excess lube which also leaves the nose nice and clean and doesn't gum up the bullet seater die. I push these bullets at just a little over 1900 fps. using 28 grs. of H335 both loads are as accurate as you can hold them and cost about 8 to 12 cents each to produce.

A few of my ranch dipped and sized bullets.
L Lee 170 gr. GC RNFP .310 M Lee 160 gr. GC TL RN .314 R Lee 158 gr. GC SWC .359

GH1 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2011, 02:39:59 PM »

More great info, thanks guys. It looks like a universal expanding die is on my shopping list.
I've already loaded 75 rounds without the expander die, I'll have to shoot them to see what happens. I've measured the area of the bullet near the lube grooves and it's .310", so hopefully I don't lead. My load is 20 gr of 5744, which I think should get me around 1900 FPS or so. Not hot by any means. My intended use for this round is in heavy brush at close ranges, around 50 yards or less. I can probably run it a little slower and be fine.
When I get my rifle back from H&R I'll be sure to post my range results.
Once again, thanks for all the pointers everyone.
GH1

Dand · « **Reply #15 on:** August 14, 2011, 07:34:02 PM »

I really like the Lyman M die for expanding my case necks for cast bullets. I think it works the case mouth less and lets me set the bullet in the neck before running up to the seater - but any system to gently flare the case mouth will work.

GH1 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2011, 12:37:29 AM »

I just ordered the Lee Universal Expander from Midway, it should be here sometime this week.
GH1

GH1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2011, 12:40:05 PM »

I just cam back from the range and it was pretty diappointing. My rounds were all over the place and I'm not sure why. Could my improper neck expanding, and the resulting lead/lube shaving, be my problem?
The good news is when I inspectred my bore after 20 rounds I didn't see any leading, I just need to figure out why it's so inconsistant.
Any ideas would be appreciated.
GH1

spinafish · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2011, 01:24:06 PM »

I would be more concerned with powder choices and different charge weights..

Westwindmike · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2011, 01:57:20 PM »

Have you slugged your barrel yet? You may be shooting cast boolits that are too small.

GH1 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2011, 03:30:28 PM »

No, I haven't slugged it yet, I probably need to. As far as powder goes, I'm using 25 gr of 5744. I can certainly adjust my loads, I'm kind of regretting loading all my brass with the same charge.
I won't be so hasty the next time, but in the meantime I'll probably just shoot up the loads I have. It's much more fun that pulling and reloading 50 rounds.
I found a source of .311 bullets so I'll probably buy those next. I'll be talking to H&R regarding my .50 sight so I'll ask them what their bore specs are on the .30-30.
GH1

tacklebury · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2011, 04:23:36 PM »

I've heard several boards and members here stating that the Lyman M-Die lets you control the expansion a lot more accurately and maybe something to look into. I know Track of the Wolf and several other places I've seen different size expander plugs for Lee dies also that drop in, although I couldn't locate any .30 cal versions. If I see them I'll update the post.