steel bullets and grass fires

[ratdog]

  here in utah there has been a rash of crass fires caused by shooting steel bullets target practicing they have closed several areas that i used to shoot at.

[powderman]

Why would steel jkts start more fires than copper jkt?? THere have been a lot of fires in the past at Ft Knox from tracers but I've never heard of this. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

Why would steel jkts start more fires than copper jkt?? THere have been a lot of fires in the past at Ft Knox from tracers but I've never heard of this. POWDERMAN. 

Steel will strike sparks, copper won't.  Think of old time fire starters - flint and steel.

[Graybeard]

They all spark on TV and in the movies even on wood.

I sure can't say it doesn't happen cuz I really never shoot steel bullets but I think I'm gonna be frum Missouri on this one. Makes me think someone slipped some tracers in there or maybe they just wanna blame gun owners for fires.

[subdjoe]

They all spark on TV and in the movies even on wood.

I sure can't say it doesn't happen cuz I really never shoot steel bullets but I think I'm gonna be frum Missouri on this one. Makes me think someone slipped some tracers in there or maybe they just wanna blame gun owners for fires.

I've seen it.  A friend got hold of some surplus 30-06 with steel core (AP M2).  When it hit granite it did throw off sparks.  Not quite Hollyweird quality, but enough that in dry grass it could possibly ignite it.  I suspect that punching through a steel target holder could also cause some sparks, but that one I can't say for certain.

[woodsie57]

Starting a fire w/ flint and steel on purpose is so difficuly that the chances seem almost zero.

[BUGEYE]

Starting a fire w/ flint and steel on purpose is so difficuly that the chances seem almost zero.

true,  but one cigarette butt will burn down half the state.

[subdjoe]

Starting a fire w/ flint and steel on purpose is so difficuly that the chances seem almost zero.

true,  but one cigarette butt will burn down half the state.

It is amazing how little it can take to start a grass fire.  In So. Calif. identified causes have been shards of glass from a broken bottle, the foot peg of a dirt bike scraping a rock, skid plate on a dirt bike or Jeep scraping a rock, and even an arrow with a heavy field point glancing off a rock.

[Pat/Rick]

 I'm thinking that alot of this is waaaaaaay over reported, and blame placed to coincide with an agenda. Steel jacketed or cored ammo starting fires?? Absolutely possible/probable, but in the escelated proportions reported?  Color me sceptical.
 
After seeing large amount of live sparks issued from some muzzleloaders its a wonder Lewis and Clark's expedition didn't burn and denude all that was west of the Mississippi.
 
Range fires in the military are generally started from tracers, and have seen many as well as helped put out many (Ft Campbell,KY). Have also seen fires started with mortar and artillery fire, as well as flares. Have also seen smoke grenades start fires on an LZ when a helicopters (CH-47)downdraft "fanned the blaze".
 

[subdjoe]

There are records of fires being started by gunfire in the Civil War** and the westward expansion.  I suspect that many were just stomped out. People can be reasonable about things.  I've read accounts of spilled powder catching fire from sparks in the Rev. War and Napoleonic Wars and causing stoppage of the shooting as men stomped out the grass fires it caused.

At a reenactment a few years ago we had our artillery sited on a ridge.  After our first fire by file we were reloading and someone yelled "FIRE!" We all started looking around, and yelling "Cease fire!" because we were all in various stages of reloading.  Again the person yelled "FIRE!" and we all again looked around and didn't see any guns ready to fire so we yelled "Cease Fire!" "No, no! There, in front of that gun, the grass is on fire!"  So we dumped water on it. 

We then put our heads together and decided that in the future the call for a grass fire would be "GRASS!"


** about the Wilderness

. Due to the discharging of weaponry in the dense forest, the surrounding woods caught fire and blazes roared throughout the battle. Many of the wounded died horrible deaths as the indifferent fires consumed them. Soldiers reported hearing the discharge of personal firearms as soldiers perhaps resorted to taking their own lives to avoid the slow agonizing death which the conflagration promised. General Grant offered a description of this tragedy in his memoirs. "Fighting had continued from five in the morning sometimes along the whole line, at other times only in places. The ground fought over had varied in width, but averaged three-quarters of a mile. The killed, and many of the severely wounded, of both armies, lay within this belt where it was impossible to reach them. The woods were set on fire by the bursting shells, and the conflagration raged. The wounded who had not strength to move themselves were either suffocated or burned to death. Finally the fire communicated with our breastworks, in places. Being constructed of wood, they burned with great fury. But the battle still raged, our men firing through the flames until it became too hot to remain longer."

[powderman]

SUBJOE. Never thought of that, bet it was confusing.  We enjoy seeing and hearing those old cannons roar. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

SUBJOE. Never thought of that, bet it was confusing.  We enjoy seeing and hearing those old cannons roar. POWDERMAN. 

Confusing, and scary as hell because of the confusion.  The good thing is when things got confusing everyone on the line STOPPED.  Ammo chests were slammed shut if people were reaching into them, gunners haversacks were held tight shut, everyone stood clear of the muzzles.   

[Cottonwood]

In the back country when fire danger is high, horse shoes must be covered as they spark off on rocks.  Mil surp ammo ie 762x39, etc chicom ammo for you AK, SKS and the such have a much harder jacket and bullets can be picked up by magnets.  These do spark on rocks, and have caused many fires so they figure to cut the losses caused, to close off those areas prone for fires.

[powderman]

COTTONWOOD. What in the world would you cover horses hooves with that wouldn't wear right through?? You mean like a rubber boot or something similar?? POWDERMAN. 

[jhm]

     The fires started during the civil war was from the patches used in the black powder guns.   We set the gunshop range on fire several times shooting BP guns, care is to be used when shooting BP and patched ball.   Jim

[powderman]

JHM. YEP. A friend caught a ripe wheat field on fire shooting his old bp 12 ga, flaming wadding and dry wheat and, whoosh. POWDERMAN. 

[subdjoe]

COTTONWOOD. What in the world would you cover horses hooves with that wouldn't wear right through?? You mean like a rubber boot or something similar?? POWDERMAN. 

There have been on the market for a number of years polyurethane shoes that wear well.  Also, there is a growing movement to just have horses go barefoot.  The Mongols didn't shoe their horses, and look at how well they did over all sorts of ground. And look at how well horses hooves do in the wild.  Some police departments with mounted units have gone "barefoot" the past few years with no harm to the horse's hooves.

[Gun Runner]

Every year we have a fire on the open shooting range outside of Beale AFB.  Range goes out to about 400 yds with a good rise and lots of rocks in the brush. That area burns and about a 5 acre area next to it before forest service gets their trucks there and puts it out. This has been going on for the 31 yrs I have been back in this area.

Gun Runner

[rockrat]

We had a fire at our range due to steel cored ammo.  I was there when it happened

[Farrier Matt]

As far as horse shoes, the pack mules in the mines back in the day were shod with shoes made from copper or brass, so that they wouldnt spark. It doesnt wear as well as steel, and the bar stock costs a little more, but it forges a little easier, and doesnt spark. Oh, and the Mongols were one of the first to recognize the need for hoof protection, and used woven sandals for their horses feet, so they werent totally bare footed.
I havent seen it in person, but I can believe a steel bullet could spark enough to start a fire, though it seems the conditions would have to be very dry.

[gstewart44]

I'm thinking that alot of this is waaaaaaay over reported, and blame placed to coincide with an agenda. Steel jacketed or cored ammo starting fires?? Absolutely possible/probable, but in the escelated proportions reported?  Color me sceptical.
 

Yup - sounds to me like subterfuge in order to have an "Executive Order" from the EPA or Dept of Interior, saying that steel core/jacketed rounds (ie: milsurp) will no longer be available to civilians for plinking or any other purpose.     

[subdjoe]

I havent seen it in person, but I can believe a steel bullet could spark enough to start a fire, though it seems the conditions would have to be very dry.

In the western US it DOES get very, very dry.  Weeks on end of temps 90+ and humidity under 10%.  In So. Calif, during a Santa Ana, 100 degrees and 0% humidity is not uncommon.  Throw in a good wind with that and it doesn't take a lot to get a fire going. 

[BAGTIC]

A steel is not necessary to make sparks. Striking two pieces of chert/flint together will make sparks. I suspect the same could be done with other mineral also. A bullet of any kind that stiles a rock and causes a secondary impact, like in a game of billiards, could cause a spark.
A steel bullet alone is no more like than any other kind to cause a spark by striking wood, grass, etc.
In the example of the Battle of the Wilderness we must consider what kind of guns were being shot, mostly black powder muzzleloaders. Black powder is much more likely to produce sparks and the paper patches would be susceptible to spreading sparks all withouth any regard to the kind of bullet being fired.
I suspect most rangeland fires are caused by cigarettes and matches, hot auto exhausts. We could ask Johhny Cash if he were still alive. Someone is just looking for a scapegoat.

[BAGTIC]

"In So. Calif, during a Santa Ana, 100 degrees and 0% humidity is not uncommon.  Throw in a good wind with that and it doesn't take a lot to get a fire going. "
It is still going to take a hot spark of over 400 degrees.

[subdjoe]

"In So. Calif, during a Santa Ana, 100 degrees and 0% humidity is not uncommon.  Throw in a good wind with that and it doesn't take a lot to get a fire going. "
It is still going to take a hot spark of over 400 degrees.

Yep, and a steel core glancing off a rock can provide it.  I'm not saying that it happens every time, but then, throwing a lit cigarette out a car window doesn't start a grass fire every time. But why chance it?

[Pat/Rick]

Even steel cored ammo has to rupture a usually copper jacket before the "flint and steel" effect can happen. I doubt after the first impact there is enough energy left to produce a second spark unless the secondary strike is very close to the first. I have seen many many range fires again, mostly caused by tracer rounds. Many times artillery and mortar fire would not start a fire. BP era, often saw paper and cloth going downrange as well as lead, the tinder was already carrying a spark. Just how I see it, I would still venture to say that an agenda is trying to be met. BTW, I shoot ALOT of steel cored 7.62x54R in my mosins, after more than a few thousand rounds, I guess I should never shoot another one the odds may be creeping up on me.