Low tech, non-scientific test of c/c guns

[Mike in Virginia]

My brother and I frequently argue about carry guns.  He likes .45acp, I like .44 Special and 9mm.  Today we went to the range with several handguns:

  Glock .45acp
  Charter Arms .44 Special (2 ½”)

• Ruger SP101 .357 Magnum (3”)
• Sig Sauer .357 Sig
• Ruger SR9c, 9mm

Ammo tested:
  45acp – 230 grain Remington Golden Saber

• 44 Spl. -  Hornady XTP 180 grain, DoubleTap 180 grain, and 200 grain Speer Gold Dot
• .357 Magnum – 125 grain Speer Gold Dot
• .357 Sig – 125 grain Speer Gold Dot
• Ruger SR9c – Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+

Targets were water soaked phone books at about 15 feet.

Results:
  The Glock .45acp penetrated the least of all rounds tested.  However, the size of the mushroomed Golden Sabers exceeded any round tested.

• Of the 3 .44 Special loads, DoubleTap penetrated the most.  All 3 expanded perfectly.  All 3 went significantly further into the phone books than the .45.
• Ruger .357 Magnum – unbelievable penetration.  Perfect expansion.  It went through a huge stack of phone books and stopped at last page, probably because the books were resting against a gravel embankment. 
• Ruger SR9c – 2^nd only to the .357 Magnum in penetration.  Good expansion, but not nearly so huge as the .45acp.
• .357 Sig – several tests revealed exactly the same penetration and expansion as the 9mm Winchester +P+.  Ballistic charts say the +P+ 9mm is somewhat less than the .357 Sig, but in my test, they are the same.  Exactly the same.   

Steel plate review:
These plates are very heavy, about 12” square.  The only rounds that consistently knocked them over were the .45acp and .44 Special.  The DoubleTap 180 grains were better than the 200 grain Gold Dots.  (We didn’t have enough ammo to test the Ruger .357 Magnum on the plates.) 

Quirks:
Due to shoulder surgery, I hadn’t shot a handgun for about 3 months before today.  When drawing the Ruger 9mm, I twice failed to disengage the safety.  (That will get me killed if I don’t master it.)

Of all the 5 guns tested, I like the cheap Charter Arms best.  It’s simple and powerful.  Although expansion didn’t match that of the Golden Saber .45’s, they do expand reliably to almost the diameter of the fired .45 rounds.  I think all the rounds tested are adequate for self-defense, except for the Golden Saber’s limited penetration.  It stopped in the second phone book every time, whereas all other rounds stopped in the 4^th or further.  It makes me wonder how effective the 230 grain jhp would be against an assailant wearing heaving clothing.  The downside of the favored Charter Arms is that reloading in combat is very slow because the spent shells will not fall out even when the ejector is forcefully applied, because the ejector is too short, and because two of the empties catch on the rubber grip.  The shooter must pick the shells out.  Once that’s done, reloading is quick with a rubber speed strip, but not near as quick as ejecting and replacing a magazine in an auto.  The Ruger SR9c’s downside is that once a fresh magazine is inserted, you must pull the slide back a little to get it to slide home.  It’s impossible to get it to go forward by pressing the slide release. 

Regarding the Charter Arms.  It’s one of the new ones.  I’ve had it 2 years and fired it extensively with all kinds of ammo, including 240 grain Skeeter Skelton loads.  It’s as tight as the day I bought it.  The action is not smooth like a Smith and Wesson, and it looks cheap from the left side, but boy does it get the job done.  When they finally produce the Son of Sam 3” model, I’ll be first in line.   One final note on the Charter Arms: It kicks like the devil with DoubleTap ammo, which is advertised at normal pressure loads.  The recoil is similar to a .357 Magnum, but without the muzzle blast.
I think the Gold Dots, Silver Tips, and XTP’s are purposely loaded to lower pressure than most .44 Specials can stand.  The DoubleTap 180 grain jhp’s are 1050 fps from a 2 ½” barrel.  For me, that’s about as perfect a self-defense load as you can get in the size package that Charter Arms offers.  The dimensions of a .44 Bulldog are almost exactly the size of a Colt Detective Special.  Holsters are interchangeable.  If you ain’t got one, get one.   

[Mike in Virginia]

Measured the spent projectiles with a dial caliper. 
 
9mm +P+ expanded to .58
 
.44 Spl. DoubleTap to .60
 
.45acp Golden Saber to .65

[spruce]

Trim that grip panel down so the empties will clear and polish the chambers a little and you should be good to go!
 
Interesting test even if it was "unscientific".

[Graybeard]

I'm of the opinion the .45acp is grossly over rated. That is partly cuz I can't stand its hero but is also based on my own personally acquired empirical data shooting critters.

I don't carry defensive handguns that require a safety. All mine are point and shoot. The last thing I need if I were to ever have to fire one in anger is something to think about like where is the safety on this thing.

[Brett]

I agree with GB on both counts.  The old .45 has been surpassed by more modern rounds.

I also prefer simplicity when it comes to self defense sidearms.  When the SHTF I want to get my gun into play ASAP.   I love the look of and  historical significance of the old Governmet 1911 but I don't care to carry one for self defense.   When push comes to shove I don't want to be concerned with snicking off safeties or is my grip just right so that it activates the grip safety.   Draw, point, squeeze, bang is quicker than draw, point, snick off safety, squeeze (oops) adjust grip squeeze again bang. 

[williamlayton]

HUMMMMM.
If you don't like semi then get a .45 revolver----irregardless it should start with a .4---IMO.
If its got to start with a .3/9mm then get a 9x23.
If you don't like a semi--get a .357 roller and have it reamed to a 9x23.
Big is good---if it has to be fast for your appitite then make it as fast as you can get it going.
Blessings
 

[SHOOTALL]

I like the 357 mag , stats is stats .
 
It is best to always rack the slide on an auto . Why ? Because if the gun jams its the first thing to do , if you reload it also works , if you are loading it works and you do it to clear and check. In other words just about everything you need to load and keep running can start with racking the slide . If you do it this way you will never stop to think what needs to be done. And every so often the lever jams or breaks .

[Dand]

Sure wish OP could have at least approximated inches of penetration.  In my area the phone books are about 3/8 in thick and I have no idea what his are. Otherwise thanks for the post. Renews my faith in my sp101.

[Mohawk]

I am leary of any ammo tests on anything but "actual" breathing targets. The load attached penetrated the width of a deer's chest cavity plus two shoulder muscles, dropping it with in 30 yds. By "testing through accepted ballistic gelatin" I have read it should have broken into 3 or more pieces, deeming it unacceptaple for large game. Bullet worked much, much better in real life. I trust field game results and autopsies, not gelatin, wet newsprint, milk cartons filled with water, duct-seal, etc. They may be developed to be a "measure of performance" but I think that is stretching it a bit. 

[shot1]

Bottom line is that any of those rounds applied to the proper spot means threat has been stopped.  The problem with some rounds it OVER PENETRATION. You don't want it going through your assailant and taking out some innocent person behind them. I would not worry about the 45 Golden Saber against someone wearing heavy clothing unless it was Kevlar they were wearing. 
I hate manual safeties especially the de-cockers. Safeties will get you killed. A safety is a mechanical device that MAY FAIL. GET A GLOCK if you want a semiauto it will save your life. Or else use a revolver. 

[Mohawk]

Glocks are good, but a Smith or Ruger revolver is much more reliable. I ran Glocks in a commercial rental gun range and you may need to watch the mag springs and feed ramps. This is with the 17, 19, 22, 23, and 27. To be honest, round for round, an original '44 Thompson Machine gun was more reliable, as was the MP5, MP5K, Browning High Power, and the champ....Beretta M92. But, back to the point. Ballistics is nothing but a guess. Overpenetration is a strange animal. I would be more worried about the 10 rnds I fired that didn't hit anything than the 2 that hit a target. My round in my above post, gello'd at near 15" of penetration, while separating into 3-5 parts??? In real life it penetrated about 9" and held together stopping just under the outgoing hide, as this was the design of a good SD cartridge(Buffalo Bore .38 Spl, .158 gr, Standard Pressure, LHC-HP, 20-C load, Basically the old FBI load but without the plus P pressures). It took a deer, and provided really delicious sausage, but it did exactly what is was supposed to do. If I had to give an overview, I would suggest Gold Dot to the dedicated auto user as a good blanket load. Glass, sheet rock, heavy clothing, etc. all test out fine to a good bullet for all events, expansion and penetration.

[handi243]

10mm auto

[SHOOTALL]

10mm auto

 
 
 
that would work

[Empty Quiver]

. If I had to give an overview, I would suggest Gold Dot to the dedicated auto user as a good blanket load. Glass, sheet rock, heavy clothing, etc. all test out fine to a good bullet for all events, expansion and penetration.

As I understand it the reason Speer developed the Gold Dot was so all the which bullet questions could end.

[John R.]

I can't understand 45 acp bashing, if it were an inferior cartridge it wouldn't have been around for so long. I'm not saying it's the best deer killer or hog killer, but over the years (a bunch of them) it has done quite well killing people. I have 1911's, but these days I tend to carry a XD 45 Compact (point and pull). I'm not quite sure which round has surpassed the 45 acp, maybe close, but NOT surpassed.

[SHOOTALL]

As a people stopper the 357 mag. beat it. Not sure about others but some do.
 
It was around for so long because our military stocked up on it guns and ammo for two world wars and it took quite a while to use it all up. When they had to re equipt they went with different gun and round. After 50 years of M-16 they are looking for a replacement , and many ideas were tried to fix that system.
 

[John R.]

The 357 is a good round (I have several), but is much harder to control in rapid fire with full house loads. They replaced the 45 with the 9mm, and I definitly don't think that was the way to go, especially if we're comparing hardball to hardball. The last I heard on the M4 replacement was the SCAR, and I think they have tanked that idea.

[mcwoodduck]

As a people stopper the 357 mag. beat it. Not sure about others but some do.
 
It was around for so long because our military stocked up on it guns and ammo for two world wars and it took quite a while to use it all up. When they had to re equipt they went with different gun and round. After 50 years of M-16 they are looking for a replacement , and many ideas were tried to fix that system.

No matter what the system you are going to have people that like it and people that don't.
Look at the argument between ford, dodge, and chevy that has carries on for 60 years.
Basically a pick up is a pick up and will haul the same amounts.
Battle rifles and handguns are battle rifles and handguns.   As long as they proform do we really need the latest or the newest gadget?
The AK 47 is a low tech, not very accurate gun that is the standard in simplicity, duability, and reliability.  To get that you give up accuracy.  I think the same goes for hand guns.  The more gadgets, the more accuracy the more problems.
I have two SIG handguns, one a plain Jane model and it will flat out go.  I have the target model of it, all tuned and really tight tolarances.  Will make one big ragged hole at 25 Yards, but at 500 rounds the gun is so dirty it stops running.  The plane jane model has go9ng 2500 rounds over 5 months before I cleaned it and no problems.
While there is a lot to be said about bullet size and shape, being able to draw and make hits is more important than anything else.
In street stoppers real world shooting show shot placement is more inportant than caliber.  In one story a 45 vs 22 the 22 one with one hit and the 45 made 7 hits and the guy took 2 busses to the hospital.

[John R.]

I agree shot placement is king. The 22 went in the right spot, the 7 45's obviously did not.

[Empty Quiver]

As a people stopper the 357 mag. beat it. Not sure about others but some do.
 
It was around for so long because our military stocked up on it guns and ammo for two world wars and it took quite a while to use it all up. When they had to re equipt they went with different gun and round. After 50 years of M-16 they are looking for a replacement , and many ideas were tried to fix that system.

Just to be contrary here.


 I'm betting you used the oft touted FBI stats.  I'm gonna bet the U.S. Army could post some pretty good numbers to prop up the old .45ACP.   Lots of WWII vets with hands on experience might just explain the popularity.


 Now I will admit the family legend has it that both the .45 Auto and the M1 carbine were nearly useless, an M1 Garand being the only suitable weapon in a fight.

[John R.]

Well there is no doubt in my mind, if I knew I was going to be in a fight, I would definitly choose an 8 shot 30-06 semi-auto over a 30 carbine or 45 acp.

[SHOOTALL]

How would the Army know in most situations if the 45 slug came from a thompson , M3 , 1911 , 1917 revolver etc.
what happens when a 230 gr ball passes thru. a target ? in a military it might be good as it might hit another enemy . At any rate the shooter is not held liable for the extra wounded like a citizen protecting theirself would be. Besides it may suprise you the number of police that have used 45acp.

[John R.]

Our police and sheriff's depts. use XD 45's. I use 230 gr. hollow points, either Ranger Talons or Gold Dots.

[SHOOTALL]

One point is clear not one gun/round is 100% effective , none.

[mcwoodduck]

One point is clear not one gun/round is 100% effective , none.

Isn't this why they teach the tripple tap.
If a bullet is 75% one shot stop and you hit him three times isn't that a 225% stop? 
 

[John R.]

One point is clear not one gun/round is 100% effective , none.

Isn't this why they teach the tripple tap.
If a bullet is 75% one shot stop and you hit him three times isn't that a 225% stop? 

My sentiments exactly mcwoodduck! If the 1st one don't get it done, shoot em again and as many times as necessary.

[coyotejoe]

Thanks to Mike in Va. for the low tech but informative test. I too like the CA .44 Bulldog as a carry weapon. I load 180 grain hard cast full wadcutters to 1050 fps actual chronographed velocity from my old model 3" bulldog. Mine has the old style walnut grips which I find much more comfortable in recoil over the rubber grips which are very thin at the top. The wider walnut grips spread the recoil over a greater area of the hand and allow the grip to slip a bit in recoil, whereas the rubber grips stick to the skin and after 10 or 12 shots with warm loads I have a blister at the web between thumb and forefinger. The walnut grips don't work with speed loaders but I never carry one anyway. Personal defense, as opposed to police action, occurs at very close range and if I can't get it done with five I really can't imagine the goon standing around while I reload.

[5knives]

Hmmm,


Seems to be a little misunderstanding about the 1911 and it's clones.


I'm talking strictly about personal self defense here, not target ranges, hunting or just bumming around in the woods.


You don't draw, point and 'snick off the safety' , any more than you draw a Peacemaker point and cock. Less it's a range rule or something.


Been playing with both Peacemakers and 1911's for just short of 60 years and I don't claim any great expertise with either, but you cock a peacemaker 'on the draw' that's basic!


And you carry a 1911 cocked and locked, and the safety comes off on the draw!


There's no waste of time with either action, they're part of the draw.


There really isn't anything to discuss or argue over, if a body isn't 100% comfortable carrying a 1911 that way they should NOT be carrying a 1911 at all, get a revolver or a DA auto.


BTW, the 45 acp doesn't NEED to expand, it was designed to kill critters and people just the way it is, FMJ and all.


Everyone has an opinion, this is just mine!


Regards

[m-g Willy]

Well now you did it ,,
I been carrying a 2" 357 and after hearing you praise the 44 Charter Arms revolver.
I think I'm gonna have to put the squeeze on the old piggy bank and try to find a stainless model Bulldog!
btw-great post.
 

[williamlayton]

Personally, I carry Semi's most of the time because I like the way they carry without a scabbard.
You can do better--speed wise---than a .357 with a 9x23.
10mm is great but for the recoil, I would go larger.
45's are not designed to penetrateas much as others but to dump energy into the wound---I like this.
.44's do penetrate more---I prefer the .41 mag for a better results of both thoughts.
None of the above, or the ones posted, including the 10mm, shoot flatter at distances and still penetrate and expand properly than the 9x23.
Blessings