New to board, looking for help with a high school cannon.

[Marauder Cannon]

Hello all-


I am seeking help in reducing he amount of wadding that ends up flaming on the ground after a shot.


I shoot this hybrid "cannon" for the local HS football team and they have installed a new track and field that they don't want to have damaged by any flaming debris.


This cannon is actually a small stainless steel barrel that is surrounded with a foam and fiberglass shell. 


We use about 2.25 oz. of powder- either Pyrodex triple fg or similar and ignite it with a shotgun primer on a nipple over the powder. I normally use about 2-3 sheets of paper towel for wadding.


The reload process is as follows, tip cannon up to vertical, pour premeasured powder in then follow with a wad and pack it standing up, then lower it back down to it's wheels and then add a little more wad and pack again. the tighter the pack the better the pop usually.


We shoot on kickoff, TD and end of game. We have had 78 point games... that is about 13 shots over 2 hours.


So is there a better material or method that will reduce the amount of or chance of flaming wadding? we are looking at some large tarps as well.


here is a clip of a couple shots... thanks in advance for any advice or questions...

[dominick]

Hello Marauder Cannon,  Welcome to the board!  Can you tell us how your cannon is made?  What size bore is it?  If you use real black powder [I use Goex brand] instead of a substitute, then wadding would not be necessary.  Dom

[Marauder Cannon]

I will do my best to answer and thanks for the welcome.


It is a stainless steel barrel about 1.25" in diameter and 3/16ths to .25" thick wall. I am trying to get some pics of it from the builder but none yet.


i think it has a plug welded into the end and then the nipple for the primer caps is welded into that.


to fire it we have a 1/2" bolt with the end bored out to fit a primer cap- then that is placed over the nipple and we strike it with a mallet.


I realize this is more like a glorified cap gun than a real cannon but it's all i have known so far.


We normally use either pyrodex fffg or shockeys fffg powder. i get about 7 shots per 16 oz. jug.


so no- not real black powder.


I am not sure i understand how you don't need wadding with black powder.


Thanks for your time-

[subdjoe]

Hello Marauder Cannon,  Welcome to the board!  Can you tell us how your cannon is made?  What size bore is it?  If you use real black powder [I use Goex brand] instead of a substitute, then wadding would not be necessary.  Dom

Right there is your answer.  Make foil cartridges just a bit smaller than your bore diameter, use real black powder and you have no need for any wadding.  And you won't need to beat the snot out of it with the rammer.  Push it to the back of the bore, give two sharp raps to give a little compression and you are golden.

You should also think about making some sort of lock that you trip with a lanyard rather than using a hammer.  Dixie has one for about 23 bucks.  Uses a standard percussion cap.  Safer and looks a lot better.

[subdjoe]

I missed this in the initial post:

This cannon is actually a small stainless steel barrel that is surrounded with a foam and fiberglass shell. 

Add that to this from the second post:

It is a stainless steel barrel about 1.25" in diameter and 3/16ths to .25" thick wall. I am trying to get some pics of it from the builder but none yet.

If I'm reading that right, the bore is 1.25" and you have a maximum of a .25" wall., more like .1875".  You have a pipe bomb waiting t happen, Marauder.  Please read the sticky about safe construction.

I realize this is more like a glorified cap gun than a real cannon but it's all i have known so far.

I'm sorry, but that kind of thinking gets people injured or killed. The powder charge you are using, to put some perspective on it, is a quarter of an ounce more than the bursting charge on a US MKII grenade.  It has the potential to cause serious harm.   

We normally use either pyrodex fffg or shockeys fffg powder. i get about 7 shots per 16 oz. jug.


so no- not real black powder.


I am not sure i understand how you don't need wadding with black powder.


Thanks for your time-

Black powder basically burns the same unconfined as confined.  If you take a percussion shotgun, pour the loose powder into it, hold it muzzle up and fire it you get a boom about the same as if you had a fiber wad over it.  It just needs to be contained enough to all burn at effectively the same time.   I think there is something in the stickys about it.

I'm not trying to beat you up about it, really.   You have a real safety hazard on your hands.  Get the boosters to invest in something that will be safe.

[Cat Whisperer]

Marauder Cannon  --

WELCOME to the board.

subdjoe is spot-on!  We don't want to read about you in the national news.

The MINIMUM safe design would be to have a wall thickness equal to the bore diameter AND NO welding that would be exposed to the corrosive products of combustion.

The cracks start small and when it breaks it does so all at once (unless you're lucky and it's bronze  - but I've SEEN one of those come unglued - from 15' away).

You HAVE to KNOW whether it's a cannon or a bomb when you light the fuse!

[Marauder Cannon]

after quizzing the builder i think i was amiss...


the bore dia is about 1.25" but the area where the powder ignites (breech?) has a wall that is about 1.25" as well. it is sleeved etc. and there are no welds in contact with powder.


If you wrap the powder in foil will the primer cap be able to ignite it? i guess i can try it.


does the foil sort of atomize? if it provides a better pop i would try to reduce the volume fired.


Is it harder to get black powder that the pyrodex etc?


thanks for the help and i appreciate the concern. it is noted and will be discussed.


did anyone watch the clip of the firing so you could see what i am dealing with? i tried to embed it but the link was all that showed up.


thanks again.

[Double D]

Absolutley we can help, but you may not like what we tell you or maybe you will.  But bear with us we will help you do this safely.   The Touchdown guns have been a source of a number of needless accidents that could have easily been avoided.

First tell us some more about you cannon.

What is the bore diameter?  What is the outside diameter of the steel barrel? How was your barrel constructed.  Is it a bored barrel or is it a tube with  breech plug?  How is that breech plug attached.  What we are looking for here is to see if your gun meets minimum safe construction standards.

Next get rid of the synthetic powders.  Get real black powder. All the synthetic are corrosive and can attack you barrel, even stainless. The synthetics all produce  higher working pressures than black powder and will not require as much wadding pressure to bang.  If you are having problems  with finding black powder in your area we can help you with that also.  Real black can be order in in lots of  5 lbs.

Load the powder in a foil cartridge. Ypou can learn how to make a cartridge here.  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,19438.0.htm.html

You will need to change your loading procedure and suggest you look at the 10 step procedure posted here. National Safety Rules and Procedures for Shooting Muzzleloading Artillery, as adapted by the American Artillery Association March 2000

This will get you started.

[subdjoe]

after quizzing the builder i think i was amiss...


the bore dia is about 1.25" but the area where the powder ignites (breech?) has a wall that is about 1.25" as well. it is sleeved etc. and there are no welds in contact with powder.

OK, that sounds in line with the standards, the chamber wall thickness equal to or greater than the bore.  And no welds is very good.

If you wrap the powder in foil will the primer cap be able to ignite it? i guess i can try it.

If you are using a shotgun primer it may blow through the foil.  The usual practice is to prick the charge with a wire through the vent.

does the foil sort of atomize? if it provides a better pop i would try to reduce the volume fired.

You will get some shreds of foil down range for maybe 20 yards or so.  You should have more that that cleared and marked now as a safety zone anyway. 

Is it harder to get black powder that the pyrodex etc?

Usually you can't walk into your local gun shop and buy it off the shelf due to regs on storage.  But you can order it to be shipped to you.  No problem.


thanks for the help and i appreciate the concern. it is noted and will be discussed.

did anyone watch the clip of the firing so you could see what i am dealing with? i tried to embed it but the link was all that showed up.

Yep, sure did.   That was why I made the comment about the hammer.


And here it is:

thanks again.

If others will permit me, Our Pleasure!  This can be a safe, fun, and very instructional hobby.  We don't want to see anyone be injured.

[Marauder Cannon]

Great info- thanks...


I will check with the local gun shop about the powder.


I have often wondered about how to retrofit a lanyard pull setup. i will research more on that.


The foil wrapped loads are a great idea and i will try it ASAP.


Thanks again.

[Rayfan87]

If you can't get real black at a local shop (like me) you can order online in up to 50lb lots. If you go through it like you say, 50 lb is a good way to go if you can store it.

[Double D]

If you can't get real black at a local shop (like me) you can order online in up to 50lb lots. If you go through it like you say, 50 lb is a good way to go if you can store it.

Or you can order as little as five pounds....

[GGaskill]

Speaking of ordering powder, do we want to order a 25 pound case delivered to CBC² II and divide it?

[RocklockI]

If you use foil wrapped charges you will need to have a 'worm' to pull out the bits of foil left in the barrel ,then swab it out . Dominick can make up some basic tools for you reasonably .
saftey rammer, worm, wet mop ,dry mop .
Welcome to the board .
 
 

[Zulu]

The reload process is as follows, tip cannon up to vertical, pour premeasured powder in then follow with a wad and pack it standing up, then lower it back down to it's wheels and then add a little more wad and pack again. the tighter the pack the better the pop usually.

Marauder Cannon
I don't see anywhere here that says you are wet sponging between shots.  Do you sponge?
It is the most important thing you need to do.
Zulu

[Double D]

Speaking of ordering powder, do we want to order a 25 pound case delivered to CBC² II and divide it?

George, why don't post this in the Cannon shoot post...

[Tod0987]

Marauder Cannoneer
 
Welcome!! you will learn tons on cannons here and saftey is #1 especially around the players. I shoot my cannon with the scout troop but the appropriate saftey measures must be taken. 
 
one question, is the cannon in the video the cannon you reference in the questions?
 
The comment you left in the youtube file states you've blown the breach end off before and it was made by a shop class?  Just concerns about cracks already present in the metal and the quality of the welds.
 
Tod0987
 
PS. Nice guitars!

[GGaskill]

George, why don't post this in the Cannon shoot post...

OK.

[dominick]

I will do my best to answer and thanks for the welcome.


It is a stainless steel barrel about 1.25" in diameter and 3/16ths to .25" thick wall. I am trying to get some pics of it from the builder but none yet.


i think it has a plug welded into the end and then the nipple for the primer caps is welded into that.


to fire it we have a 1/2" bolt with the end bored out to fit a primer cap- then that is placed over the nipple and we strike it with a mallet.


I realize this is more like a glorified cap gun than a real cannon but it's all i have known so far.


We normally use either pyrodex fffg or shockeys fffg powder. i get about 7 shots per 16 oz. jug.


so no- not real black powder.


I am not sure i understand how you don't need wadding with black powder.


Thanks for your time-

The difference between black powder and black powder substitute is black powder is classified as a low explosive and black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex, Triple Seven, etc are propellants.  Explosives detonate and propellants conflagrate or burn. This is why wadding is not necessary with real black powder. Also, there are certain requirements for the commercial storage of black powder which is why many gun stores no longer stock it.  It can be ordered from an online source.
 
I would also recommend a safety rammer for loading.  This device moves your hand and arm from the line of fire to the side of the barrel when loading.
 
Dom

[DaveSB]

If you are using a shotgun primer it may blow through the foil.  The usual practice is to prick the charge with a wire through the vent.

Just to add to Subdjoe, be sure to use an non-ferrous wire prick like aluminum or brass to lower risk of predetonation.

[subdjoe]

If you are using a shotgun primer it may blow through the foil.  The usual practice is to prick the charge with a wire through the vent.

Just to add to Subdjoe, be sure to use an non-ferrous wire prick like aluminum or brass to lower risk of predetonation.

((smacks self on forehead)) DUH!  Some of the things we just take as given.  Although I would suggest staying away from aluminum, it can quickly get brittle and you could end up spiking your gun without meaning to. 

[DaveSB]

((smacks self on forehead)) DUH!  Some of the things we just take as given.  Although I would suggest staying away from aluminum, it can quickly get brittle and you could end up spiking your gun without meaning to. 

HAHAHAHA, don't beat yourself up over it. That's the great part about forums, lots of eyes on the same subject matter. On the plus side, you told me something about aluminum wire that I wouldn't have thought of.

[Marauder Cannon]

wow.. lots of great info...  i'll try and address the points...


the cannon in the posted clip is the old one, it was believed to have been constructed by the high school shop class many many years ago. it was a steel barrel that was surrounded with wooden rings and fiberglass. the new cannon looks identical but  is stainless and much more robust in build.


the old one never actually blew the breech off, it blew off the end of the "barrel" that consisted of wood and fiberglass. i assume the suction from the charge leaving the actual steel barrel pulled/blew it off.


that cannon had been in use since the 60's or 70's.


the new unit is much stronger and lighter.


I just stepped into this role and have just done it the way it has been done so i am sure there are things we could do better.


we have never wet or dry mopped it...


mea culpa...


i will try and integrate better procedures now.


thanks again and thanks for the nod on the guitars, my dad is an amazing guy. 8^)

[Double D]

One of the statements that is usually made right after a cannon accident is,  "...when have been shooting it for years and never had a problem."


All accidents are bad, but nothing brings more bad publicity than an accident at a public event, such as a football game.


You need to take a serious look at the construction this cannon.  Some of the descriptive terms you are using do not instill confidence in the feeling that this gun is safely built.  We can help you change that.

[GGaskill]

A dimensioned drawing of the steel part of the barrel would help us understand exactly what you have.  It doesn't have to be done with CAD (although that would probably be clearer), just something that will let us get a handle on size and construction.

[subdjoe]

One of the statements that is usually made right after a cannon accident is,  "...when have been shooting it for years and never had a problem."


All accidents are bad, but nothing brings more bad publicity than an accident at a public event, such as a football game.


You need to take a serious look at the construction this cannon.  Some of the descriptive terms you are using do not instill confidence in the feeling that this gun is safely built.  We can help you change that.

At least he came here asking questions and didn't ignore us when we started saying "WHAT?!!? Are you CRAZY?"

I think we can be somewhat confident from :

the bore dia is about 1.25" but the area where the powder ignites (breech?) has a wall that is about 1.25" as well. it is sleeved etc. and there are no welds in contact with powder.

that at chamber is at least close to the proper thickness. 

We've beat him thoroughly about the head and shoulders with rammers and worms and striped his back with knotted lanyards on the issue of safety.  While nothing is more important than safety, at some point our harping on it will become background. 

Is there anyone near Cottonwood AZ who could go take a look at it? 

Or, Maurader, can you maybe get someone in the shop class to make up drawings for you to post for us?  And maybe get some photos of it?  Close ups of the muzzle, the vent, overall from various angles.  If someone in a shop or photography class can, maybe some some inside the bore (that might be an interesting problem for a student).  The more information you can get us, the better we will be able to help you.[/font][/size]

[GGaskill]

Is there anyone near Cottonwood AZ who could go take a look at it?

If we don't have someone local and this is the Cottonwood that is NE of the Prescott area (and west of Oak Creek), I will be in the area about the middle of October and could probably find time to look at it.  But we could also pretty much deal with this here if we had an accurate drawing of the piece.

[Marauder Cannon]

This is the Cottonwood that is NE of Prescott.


The shop class built the old one that has been retired.


the new one was built last year and i am trying to get pics of it from the builder.


i got to see it once before it was encased in foam and fiberglass.


here is a pic at that stage...


i expected the admonitions on safety... but figured this was the best place to go for advice... and some smacks upside the head as well. 8^)


i figure i can only get better at this point.


if somebody is in the area then i would be happy to meet... i will be shooting on all friday night home games pretty soon.


Thanks again and i'll ry and get more info. asap... 8^)


 

[Marauder Cannon]

I am thinking that i may sound like an idiot no knowing more about the construction... but i had planned to be involved in the process only to have the builder go ahead and do it without my knowledge.


I was intimately familiar with the old cannon as i had to rebuild it once... and it was pretty scarey actually.


it just had a plate butt-welded to the end (breech) of the barrel pipe which was nowhere near thick enough.


again that was the old one... the new one is much much better.


I actually do CAD for a living- well CAD and IT for a civil engineering office. so i had hoped to draft the new cannon before it was built.


back to drafting for me... 8^)

[Tod0987]

the old one never actually blew the breech off, it blew off the end of the "barrel" that consisted of wood and fiberglass. i assume the suction from the charge leaving the actual steel barrel pulled/blew it off.

Ahh ok the fore end fiberglass seperated not the steel barrel breach... Thanks for the clarification
 
Tod0987