Author Topic: Guns for felons? (Read 10544 times)

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #120 on:** August 13, 2011, 06:47:14 PM »

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Why do you feel that a felon should have the right to own guns? Yes I know what the second amendment says.

You just answered your own question. In my opinion it's all about what the 2nd Amendment says, not what the gun control act of 1968 says. I'm not willing to give up any essential liberty for safety.

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But the moment we allow felons to buy guns and own guns, and they commit more crimes while using a gun. We the law abiding gun owners will pay worst then we are already. A felon does not have the ability to follow the rules, hence the felony charge. So why should they be allowed to own guns?

You just said it, they don't have the ability to follow the rules. It doesn't matter whether there is a law or no law that says felons can't own guns. If they want to commit more crimes after being let out of jail they will. No law on earth will prevent them committing more gun crimes if they want to. Since that is the case, why violate the 2nd Amendment in order to provide us with a false sense of security? Are you trying to say that gun control laws actually work?

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Common sense tells me a felon is not someone I want owning guns or voting. You can keep saying it over and over, but you will not convince me otherwise.

Common sense is the exact same phrase the the Brady Bunch uses to justify their own anti gun agenda. How does it make you feel to be on the same side as the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence when it comes to this issue?

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Also just because we do not agree with you, does not mean we don't support the second amendment, or are part of the Brady campaign.

Oh Really? You don't have to take my word for it, the following is taken directly from the Brady website: http://www.bradycampaign.org/about/

Q. What is the Brady Campaign and the Brady Center's goal?
A. Our goal is to protect you, your family and your community from gun deaths and injuries. In America, we make it too easy for dangerous people to get dangerous weapons. There are only a few federal gun control laws on the books, and even those have loopholes. This leads to senseless gun violence affecting tens of thousands.

We should make it harder for convicted felons, the dangerously mentally ill, and others like them to get guns in the first place. We can do this by passing laws such as requiring Brady criminal background checks on all gun sales; banning military-style assault weapons; and strengthening law enforcement's efforts to stop the illegal gun market, like limiting the number of guns that can be bought at one time.

We can also do this by exposing corrupt gun dealers who feed the illegal gun market. Our Brady Center legal staff works to hold those dealers accountable in court and to protect common sense gun laws when they are attacked in court. We work to strengthen law enforcement's efforts to stop the illegal gun market. We also educate the public about gun violence through grassroots mobilization and outreach to affected communities.

Thousands upon thousands of people will continue to die and be injured needlessly each year without stronger, sensible gun laws. The Brady Campaign fights for sensible gun laws to protect you, your family and your community.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #121 on:** August 13, 2011, 07:19:07 PM »

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Right on Doublebass I grew up living next door to an man that had served time for manslaughter.
When he was a young foolish man, he killed another young foolish man in a bar fight.I think he was around 18 at the time and this was in the early 1900's.talk was, he served 10 years.I met him as a middle age man. All the kids in the neighborhood thought the world of him, and even though he never had kids, he loved all children. He took me on my first rabbit hunt and belonged to a deer camp that had a big cookout every year and all the neighbors were invited. He was an avid hunter as most were in my neck of the woods, and no one ever feared him owning a gun because he was an ex-con.

Good story NW, it just shows how foolish painting everyone with the broad brush of "felon" can be.

I have a cousin who was my best friend growing up. We used to go fishing every single day during summer vacations. Neither one of us hunted, we were not from hunting families. My cousin was one of the sweetest, God fearing boys you could ever meet growing up. He'd give you the shirt off of his back. Unknown to me at the time, he was sexually abused by the priest at our church. He kept it a secret due to the shame and the fact that nobody would have believed him at that time.

He carried the emotional scars throughout his teenage years. We ended up drifting apart after high school. He got heavily into alcohol and later on drugs to medicate himself from the pain. His drug problem became real bad when he got into his 20's, he got into cocaine. He ended up getting into auto theft to feed his drug addiction. Eventually he got caught, and is now a convicted felon for stealing a car. He continued to battle his addiction until finally when all of the secrets of priests abusing young boys came to light he decided to go out into the open with it and deal with his demons.

I'm glad to say that now he's be clean and sober for quite a while. I ended up getting into hunting later in life. He and I have reconnected so I would love nothing more than to share the joys of hunting and shooting with him. Since we have the wonderful Gun Control Act of 1968 I cannot take him shooting and cannot take him hunting. My cousin wouldn't hurt a fly. My cousin deserves to have the same inalienable rights that you and I have. He made some bad choices, paid for them therefore should get a 2nd chance at being an American.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #122 on:** August 13, 2011, 07:40:18 PM »

Quote from: Doublebass73 on August 13, 2011, 07:19:07 PM

My cousin deserves to have the same inalienable rights that you and I have. He made some bad choices, paid for them therefore should get a 2nd chance at being an American.

I agree.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #123 on:** August 14, 2011, 01:24:38 AM »

DoubleBass, it would be expensive to retain a lawyer, but I would certainly try to get those rights restored. with some research you might be able to do it without a lawyer.
to get disability, my wife argued my case where most people use a lawyer.
in the meantime, get some crossbows and the two of you hit the woods.

mechanic · « **Reply #124 on:** August 14, 2011, 02:37:52 AM »

Doublebass, If your cousin were in Ga. he could use a muzzle loader. They are not classed as a "firearm". My BIL, now deceased did this for many years.

Ben

BUGEYE · « **Reply #125 on:** August 14, 2011, 02:45:11 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on August 14, 2011, 02:37:52 AM

Doublebass, If your cousin were in Ga. he could use a muzzle loader. They are not classed as a "firearm". My BIL, now deceased did this for many years.

Ben

hadn't thought of that, but you're right, even order'em through the mail.
I wonder about other states and their laws.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #126 on:** August 14, 2011, 04:06:42 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on August 14, 2011, 02:37:52 AM

Doublebass, If your cousin were in Ga. he could use a muzzle loader. They are not classed as a "firearm". My BIL, now deceased did this for many years.
Ben

I've thought of that, but be very careful, and talk to atty/get clarity first; ML might be not be 'firearm' for FFL/transfer purposes, but I believe that if felon is caught with it, he'll be charged... it's a gun (I mean, rifle)

"this is my rifle, this is my gun... "

srussell · « **Reply #127 on:** August 14, 2011, 06:39:29 AM »

ill get slammed for this but here goes. people talk about felons being felons because they committed a crime now that's true. but for some of the high and mighty say you have a ccw your attacked on the street and shoot someone. if you cant prove you were in the right then you just became a felon. now all you were doing was protecting you and maybe your family. now if convicted do you think you should get your gun rights back. after all your now a felon, but were just exercising your rights to protect you and yours

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #128 on:** August 14, 2011, 07:18:39 AM »

Quote from: yellowtail3 on August 14, 2011, 04:06:42 AM

Quote from: mechanic on August 14, 2011, 02:37:52 AM
Doublebass, If your cousin were in Ga. he could use a muzzle loader. They are not classed as a "firearm". My BIL, now deceased did this for many years.
Ben

I've thought of that, but be very careful, and talk to atty/get clarity first; ML might be not be 'firearm' for FFL/transfer purposes, but I believe that if felon is caught with it, he'll be charged... it's a gun (I mean, rifle)

"this is my rifle, this is my gun... "

I'd be concerned about getting him into muzzleloaders without getting a lot of things in writing from a good lawyer. For now the suggestion of crossbow or a compound is the route I'm going to take him down.

mechanic · « **Reply #129 on:** August 14, 2011, 02:32:04 PM »

Don't know about other states, or even other areas of this one, but here in this co. the sheriff doe's not consider the ML an offense. I admit to ignorance of the law, but I know that locally it's ok.

Anyone who would consider this should consult a lawyer of course.

In the same light, a bow or anything else could be considered a "deadly weapon", and given the law's ability to make a situation what they want it to be, I would verify this as well.....

Ben

BUGEYE · « **Reply #130 on:** August 14, 2011, 02:47:05 PM »

just googled it and yes you need to check each locale. a zillion different laws on the books.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #131 on:** August 14, 2011, 04:47:05 PM »

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In the same light, a bow or anything else could be considered a "deadly weapon", and given the law's ability to make a situation what they want it to be, I would verify this as well.....

Good point

nw_hunter · « **Reply #132 on:** August 15, 2011, 05:09:21 AM »

Quote from: BUGEYE on August 14, 2011, 01:24:38 AM

DoubleBass, it would be expensive to retain a lawyer, but I would certainly try to get those rights restored. with some research you might be able to do it without a lawyer.
to get disability, my wife argued my case where most people use a lawyer.
in the meantime, get some crossbows and the two of you hit the woods.

This is exactly why many of us feel you shouldn't need to get a lawyer to restore those rights.They should be automatically restored after paying your debt by incarceration.They lump all felons in the same category. Just another chipping away the second a, and disarming of Americans. With the blessings of many gun owners it appears.

These people at Organizations like the Brady bunch are very clever at obtaining their goals.They prey on the ignorance and complacency of voters.They even enlist help from very large gun groups at times, that join them in so called sensible gun laws

BUGEYE · « **Reply #133 on:** August 15, 2011, 05:18:00 AM »

when my wife argued my disability case, the judge never questioned why we didn't have a lawyer.
he just listened and ruled. so there is hope for doublebass.
if anyone has questions about how to proceed, I'll give you my wifes e-mail address.

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #134 on:** August 15, 2011, 05:43:46 AM »

Quote from: nw_hunter on August 15, 2011, 05:09:21 AM

These people at Organizations like the Brady bunch are very clever at obtaining their goals.They prey on the ignorance and complacency of voters.They even enlist help from very large gun groups at times, that join them in so called sensible gun laws

What they do, is go after low-hanging fruit that won't get much opposition - for example, 'assault weapons'.

And making the 2nd Amendment meaningless for 'felons'

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #135 on:** August 15, 2011, 08:24:13 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on August 14, 2011, 02:32:04 PM

Don't know about other states, or even other areas of this one, but here in this co. the sheriff doe's not consider the ML an offense. I admit to ignorance of the law, but I know that locally it's ok.

Anyone who would consider this should consult a lawyer of course.

In the same light, a bow or anything else could be considered a "deadly weapon", and given the law's ability to make a situation what they want it to be, I would verify this as well.....

Ben

better check the fed and state paper work for buying a gun.

shootergdv · « **Reply #136 on:** August 17, 2011, 01:58:27 PM »

What's a felony in one state may not be in another, so if nothing else, the "system" is not fair. A few years back, a Texas FFL lost his FFL and his right to own guns because he was caught in Mexico with shotshells in his vehicle and convicted of a felony in Mexico !(he routinely crossed the border to eat !). In Virginia you have a better chance of regaining your gun rights as a felon than as a misdemeanor DV offender. There is NO mechanism in VA law at present to get a misdemeanor expunged. I know a good ole boy who has been arrested ONCE in his life, in his 60's now and can't hunt with his grandson because he was convicted of DV assault(only evidence was he said/she said with a lady judge). Me, I believe in crime and punishment, and if a guy does 10 years of a 20 year sentence and makes the next 10 with no troubles, he's paid his debt and oughta go back to even. Your hardcore felon WILL get a gun regardless of law anyway and we'll probably process him into the system again. And NO misdemeanor should deprive one of gun rights. The Laughtenburg amendment that created that disability is not only wrong, it is applied retoactively - thousands of people just said what in the world and paid a $50 fine rather than thoudands of dollars in legal fees, not knowing they'd screwed themselves.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #137 on:** August 18, 2011, 08:43:30 AM »

If every thing was the same in every state why have states ? What has that got to do with fair ? Thinking like that is why tax money from Va goes to education in Ca.

Richard P · « **Reply #138 on:** August 18, 2011, 09:47:36 AM »

I tend to believe non violent felons should have the ability to have 2nd A rights restored. If I recall, the Clintons were trying to get felons into the voting booths. (Someone checl on that), but if their suffrage rights are restored, shouldnt we consider restoring 2A rights in the case of non violent persons. On the case of muzzle loaders; what restrictions may be on buying black powder for felons ? rp

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #139 on:** August 18, 2011, 09:59:46 AM »

Didn't you watch the Dukes of Hazzard ? Luke and Bo were bow hunters for that reason

In Va its a no no .
But G. Gordon Liddy said he could keep one old antique pistol , said so on the air and lived in Maryland so who knows ?

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #140 on:** August 19, 2011, 03:23:44 AM »

Leave felons alone, and take guns away from idiot cops like SGT Dougherty in Philly.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #141 on:** August 19, 2011, 03:26:55 AM »

what is the charge to violate a citizens rights ? to point a gun at a citizen with out being provoked ?

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #142 on:** August 19, 2011, 04:45:25 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on August 19, 2011, 03:26:55 AM

what is the charge to violate a citizens rights ? to point a gun at a citizen with out being provoked ?

No charge; it's legal, I guess. Actually.. just about anything is excused by that intoning, "Officer Safety, Officer Safety!"

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #143 on:** August 19, 2011, 04:47:26 AM »

he must have been a wuss or on a mission

yellowtail3 · « **Reply #144 on:** August 19, 2011, 05:10:56 AM »

Hear it for yourself. Warning: graphic foul language by the Law Enforcement Officers. DO NOT click the link link below if you don't want to hear LEO directing abuse & profanity at a law-abiding citizen. Partial (censored) transcript at bottom of page.

apparently such behavior is S.O.P. - imagine if a citizen behaved that way toward another citizen, let alone a police officer. He'd be thrown in jail (or murdered, if he treated LEO thataway)

[/url]

Excerpts from an audio recording Mark Fiorino made of his Feb. 13 encounter with Philly cops on Frankford Avenue near Placid Street:

Sgt. Michael Dougherty, approaching Fiorino, who had a gun holstered on his left hip: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"
Mark Fiorino: "Junior?"
MD: "Let me see your hands."
MF "Excuse me, why are you pointing your gun at me, officer? . . . Sir, you're threatneing me with lethal force."MD: "No, I'm not threatening you."MF: "You're pointing a weapon at me."
MD: "I don't know who you are; you've got a gun on you."
MF: "Would you like to see my license to carry firearms and my driver's license? . . . I'm going to hand you my license to carry firearms."
MD: "Keep your hand right where it's at. . . . I don't know who you are. Get down on your knees."
MF: "Excuse me?"
MD: "Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying."
MF: "Sir, I'm more than happy to stand here -"
MD: "If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you. I'm telling you right now: You make a move, and you're going down!
]MF: "Is this necessary?"
MD: "Yes it is. I don't know who you are, why you have a gun on you."
MF: "Because I carry a firearm for self-defense purposes."
MD: "Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?"
MF: "Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms. It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."
[About two minutes after the incident began to unfold, other officers responded to Dougherty's call for backup and arrived at the scene while Dougherty and Fiorino continued to exchange words.]
MD: "He's got a gun right on his left side."
Unidentified officer: "Get on the f------ ground!"
MF: "Excuse me, I'll get on the ground -"
UO: "Lay the f--- down! Lay the f--- down!"
MF: "All right! All right! This is not necessary, gentlemen -"
MD: "Everybody relax, relax."
MF: "Gentlemen, this is not necessary -"
UO: "Shut the f--- up! Shut your f------ mouth!"
The encounter lasted for more than 40 minutes before Fiorino was ultimately released.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #145 on:** August 20, 2011, 06:48:49 AM »

Nothing like law enforcement officers that don't know the laws of their own state

m-g Willy · « **Reply #146 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:39:08 PM »

I've said this before,,,If you are a FREE MAN (or WOMAN) owning a gun is a RIGHT!
If you think that you can lose that RIGHT ,then it was never a RIGHT in the first place.
It is only a priviledge.
If a felon should have his rights taken away , then why not the drunk? or the guy that breaks the law by speeding?
Both have shown the willingness to break the law.
Take away their "priviledge " to own a gun!!
Anyone that thinks it's ok to take guns from ANY person who is free to walk the streets is just like the cop that says="no one needs a gun----except me!"

btw-I am not a felon, and no one in my family that I know of is a felon

BAGTIC · « **Reply #147 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:23:40 PM »

Quote from: Casull on August 08, 2011, 06:17:50 PM

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Just becasue somepne did make a mistake shouldnt stop a person from there
rights when they pay the debt.

First of all, committing a felony is not just making a mistake. And, once again, if the loss of that right is part of the punishment, then they have NOT paid the debt just by serving the prison time.

The Declaratiopn of Independence, our founding document, says that our "Rights" are unalienable. Do you know what unalienable means?

BAGTIC · « **Reply #148 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:33:24 PM »

Doublebass73,
Consider that it is very likely that you and and I and everyone else on this board has probably commited a felony at some time in our life. We may not have been aware of it at the time or even have known that what we did was a felony but there are SO MANY laws in this country making SO MANY acts felonies that I doubt many people get through life without tripping on the line somewhere.
If we are willing to revoke the right to bear arms why not revoke all of the other rights as well. After all that to0 would be the subsequent punishment for commiting the crime.

BAGTIC · « **Reply #149 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:37:16 PM »

Quote from: Richard P on August 18, 2011, 09:47:36 AM

I tend to believe non violent felons should have the ability to have 2nd A rights restored. If I recall, the Clintons were trying to get felons into the voting booths. (Someone checl on that), but if their suffrage rights are restored, shouldnt we consider restoring 2A rights in the case of non violent persons. On the case of muzzle loaders; what restrictions may be on buying black powder for felons ? rp

Ironic isn't it that felons can not own guns but they can hold public office, President, Governor, etc.