Author Topic: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression  (Read 21957 times)

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Offline gandog56

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How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« on: August 04, 2011, 06:13:31 AM »
....when the South fired the first shots?

Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 07:53:05 AM »
....when the South fired the first shots?

If a burglar is breaking in, are you the aggressor if you shoot at him?

Lincoln refused to pull US troops from SC soil.  Lincoln was attempting to resupply and reinforce those troops in preparation to invading the former states of the deep south.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 03:51:22 PM »
"Resolved, That this state do cede to the United States, all the right, title and claim of South Carolina to the site of Fort Sumter and the requisite quantity of adjacent territory, Provided, That all processes, civil and criminal issued under the authority of this State, or any officer thereof, shall and may be served and executed upon the same, and any person there being who may be implicated by law; and that the said land, site and structures enumerated, shall be forever exempt from liability to pay any tax to this state.         "Also resolved: That the State shall extinguish the claim, if any valid claim there be, of any individuals under the authority of this State, to the land hereby ceded.
12/31/1836  South Carolina Legislature.
Looks to me like the burglar was South Carolina.

Offline littlecanoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 04:55:44 PM »
IMO it's the WONA for the same reason(s) that the Revolutionary war was a war against the aggression of England. 

There was a strong view of the reciprocal rights and responsibilities between the governing and the governed.
Just as the Colonies made appeals through their elected officials to King George the southern states appealed.
Just as the Colonies declared their independence after appeals were ignored and not honored the southern states did the same.
Just as the Colonies took action only after exhausting magisterial appeal the southern states did the same.

This is why the arguments that slavery was the primary issue kill me. 
Lincoln did a 180 on the rights of the states to freely govern or secede when that right was broached.
The federal government ruined the union that they claim to have saved as the union has NEVER looked, worked, functioned as it did before Lincoln saved it.

It is the WONA for these and many other reasons in my minds view. 
We can say that the Union was lost one way or the other.
Either way was a way of aggression, political or military.

Only the memory remains.

lc

Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 07:32:32 PM »
Also, would that have been enforceable after SC left the Union?

And, even if it would have held up, that would not negate Lincoln wanting to illegally take  an army through SC to invade it and other former states.  So the analogy I proposed still stands. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 05:12:07 AM »
Toombs was right. 
 
"Mr. President (Davis), at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountain to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal."

Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AM »
Yeah, the history books have it all wrong.

What really happened was that SC sent troops to Manhattan.  Davis called for troops to invade New England.  Bull Run was really took place in Indiana, as southern forces moved on Wisconsin and Michigan. 

Yep, the south was the aggressor.  No federal soldiers ever got into the south.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 08:26:53 AM »
Lincoln didn't call for volunteers until after Ft Sumter was fired on.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 08:54:23 AM »
The first shots were fired at the ship resupplying the fort. So it would seem like there was cause to fire on an invading ship.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 09:20:32 AM »
A 20th century equivalent to the firing on the Star of the West would have been if the Soviets had shot down our planes duing the Berlin airlift.  WW III.
 
The rebs wanted a fight and figured the north would roll over.  Didn't happen.  In 1941, the Japanese figured the same way and they ended up with a nuclear version of Sherman's March.  Both had it coming.

Offline Casull

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 09:26:31 AM »
Quote
The rebs wanted a fight and figured the north would roll over.  Didn't happen.  In 1941, the Japanese figured the same way and they ended up with a nuclear version of Sherman's March.  Both had it coming.

 
Wow, hard to respond to that much ignorance in such a small space.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 09:50:33 AM »
So you are saying the attack on PH was history repeting ? How about 911 ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 09:59:17 AM »
The attacks themselves, not even close.  The rebs carried a higher standard than Tojo or bin Laden.  The mentality regarding expected US response, absolutely.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 10:06:12 AM »
 If we had been in a fort in toyko bay it may have been similar  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 10:09:29 AM »
we have one in Cuba

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 10:13:11 AM »
we pay rent there .
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 10:18:42 AM »
and the union had title to Ft Sumter

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 10:45:15 AM »
So Maybe the State of South Carolina condemed it under the ultimate domain laws and evicted them  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline williamlayton

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2011, 10:57:32 AM »
All of the above were the reasons.
SC tried, God love 'em, and they lost----but they tried.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 06:12:43 PM »
and the union had title to Ft Sumter

...and Great Britain had title to EVERY fort on this continent in 1776, so what 's your point?


SBG
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline williamlayton

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2011, 03:58:54 AM »
The US won.
The winner is normally the winner until someone else comes along and wins.
No amount of law prevents revolution but the battles determine the winner.
The South was not willing to see the inevitable outcome of their actions.
I had a confrontation with a man over some business issues years ago. His attitude was that he was correct because he was a genius and a member of the Mensa (sp) society and a genius. I informed him that he was incorrect and being a genius was just the ability to learn and I was going to teach him a lesson.
I won.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Casull

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2011, 08:21:28 AM »
William, might makes right.  BUT, that has nothing to do with right and wrong.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline williamlayton

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2011, 09:19:10 AM »
Both thought teirownselves to be correct and God on thier side.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline us920669

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2011, 10:32:09 AM »
A civil war is usually a war for the whole country.  What we experienced was a separatist movement, but as Mt. Layton keeps pointing out, such affairs are usually settled through force of arms.


Toombs would have been an excellent president.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2011, 10:33:30 AM »
One country, any country, can not exercise imminent domain in another country Under international law the Union would have had a legal right to supply Ft Sumter by sea just as the Russians, Ukrainians, etc, have a legal right to transit the Bosporus to gain access to the open sea. Just as the US has a right to transit the Gulf of St. Lawrence (Canadian) to gain access to the Great Lakes.
Once a nation cedes sovereignty over a piece of territory it can not unilaterally negate it. No Welshing. No Indian giving. We paid Spain for the Florida territory, France for the Louisiana Purchase, Mexico for the New Southwestern teritories (CA, AZ, NM, NV, CO, etc), Mexico Again for the Gadsden Purchase, Spain agains for Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, Philippines, and finally Denmark for the Virgin Islands. Now who here would claim that those countries have a right to unilaterally change their minds and reclaim those territories.
American independence was not unilateral. The colonists declared their independence but that did not make then independent. They became independent in 1784 by the ratification of the Treaty of Paris whereby Great Britain gave independence to the original 13 colonies. GB gave independence to each colony separately, not to the "United States". It is this fact that justifies southern secession as these 13 new nations which became independent under the Treaty of Paris never subsequently transferred or yielded that independence to any country.
Unfortunately the South has never been the intellectual heart of America and the same stupid, stiff necked, hot headed mentality that lead the South to its tragic end is still being perpetuated in certain segments of southern culture.  Strange isn't it how some people revel in reliving the the stupidity of their forbearers and glorifying their own ass kicking. Surely there is a masochistic streak in the south as wide as the Bible belt.

Offline BAGTIC

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2011, 11:16:42 AM »
....when the South fired the first shots?

If a burglar is breaking in, are you the aggressor if you shoot at him?

Lincoln refused to pull US troops from SC soil.  Lincoln was attempting to resupply and reinforce those troops in preparation to invading the former states of the deep south.
....when the South fired the first shots?

Can't you read Brewster's post. It wasn't SC it was USA territory as admitted by the SC legislature.  Secession was for the purpose of preserving slavery. War was because of southern STUPIDITY.
Lincoln's predecessor Buchanan was literally in bed with Senator King  of SC. They were in a 10 year homsexual 'relationship'. When Lincoln succeeded Buchanan and SC realized it had lost its 'special' influence over the White House it panicked.
If a burglar is breaking in, are you the aggressor if you shoot at him?

Lincoln refused to pull US troops from SC soil.  Lincoln was attempting to resupply and reinforce those troops in preparation to invading the former states of the deep south.

Preparing to invade? HaHa. Ft. Sumter was still under construction and completion was FAR off.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2011, 08:01:08 AM »
And? One can invade without forts.  In fact, forts are static, just thought I would point that out.  But Sumter had enough guns on it to command the harbor.

Tell us, how many southern troops were heading to Boston or New York in April, 1861?
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline BUGEYE

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 08:08:48 AM »
The first shots were fired at the ship resupplying the fort. So it would seem like there was cause to fire on an invading ship.
just for bringing in some groceries? ;D
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2011, 05:20:53 PM »
The first shots were fired at the ship resupplying the fort. So it would seem like there was cause to fire on an invading ship.
just for bringing in some groceries? ;D

Invasion is invasion. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Brewster

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2011, 05:46:33 PM »
The scum had more than 200 spys in DC alone