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Author Topic: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression  (Read 21958 times)

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Offline yellowtail3

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #150 on: June 08, 2013, 08:00:10 AM »
Quote from: Mike in Virginia on June 08, 2013, 05:27:47 AM
Lincoln created a permanent problem worse than slavery.   
How so? By going to war rather than accepting secession in the first place?
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #151 on: June 08, 2013, 02:52:50 PM »
Yellowtail, exactly so.  Secession would have been a much better answer to a problem that only existed in the mind of Lincoln and his supporters. 
 
Even if secession had occurred, slavery would not have stood.  It would have been eliminated soon enough by southerners themselves.  But even so, slavery was better than war.  Not many people asked the slaves themselves what they wanted, even though the horrific number of deaths the war claimed went ahead without their input.  As I said earlier, if we could go back and ask the individual slave if he wanted to work at the plantations or go back to Africa, he would have stayed here.
 
But Lincoln couldn't stand it.  He had to get aggressive and move toward changing the nation to fit what he thought was correct, regardless of the outcome.  Said outcome was and is abominable.  The slaves were freed to what end?  To the end their descendants have now.  What a total and absolute screw up by Lincoln.
 
Some few presidents have been murdered.  In Lincoln's case, it came too late. 
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #152 on: June 09, 2013, 06:23:03 AM »
Gentlemen,


   I'd really like to know from what historical works you are getting your facts on Lincoln.  Do you just make them up?


   Lincoln ran on the express platform that as President, he would not in any manner try to abolish slavery in the states in which it then existed.  He stated this over and over, and he meant it.  Where he differed radically from the southern viewpoint was that he would not let slavery be extended into the new territories.  This infuriated the southern slave owners, since they wanted to extend slavery into all of the new states that would be created out of the territories, including Nebraska, New Mexico and even California.


   The main fear of the South was that if the new territories came in as free states, then a super majority of free states would be created in Congress, thereby giving Congress enough votes to amend the Constitution to abolish slavery everywhere.  Not likely, since most of the Midwestern states didn't give a rat's butt about slavery.  Nor did most folks in Pennsylvania or New York.




   Lincolns wife, Mary Todd, was  a wealthy woman from huge plantation in  Kentucky (a slave state that stayed in the Union).  Her family owned lots of slaves there.


   Lincoln's worst nightmare was a Civil War.  But, he was willing to have one in order to keep the Union together by not letting the Southern states secede.   The minute he was elected, the deep south states started to secede, since their legislatures were totally controlled by rich slave owners.   The border states did not.  They stayed in, expressing sentiment to stay in the Union and try to reach a peaceful solution.


    Lincoln did not sign the Emancipation Proclamation until more than two years after he was in office.  And he had real doubts about doing so.  He delayed signing it for months on end.  He did so only because he was worried about getting re-elected, and because the War (despite Gettysburg) had no end in sight after years of butchery.


   The Emancipation Proclamation did not free all of the slaves in the country.  It expressly states that it only applied to the "states in rebellion".    Accordingly, it did not apply to (and wasn't intended to apply to) any slave state that had remained in the Union, principally Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware.
   
   Mannyrock
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2013, 06:38:34 AM »
Lincoln's original intention makes no difference now, does it?  Slave descendants are worse off than their slave ancestors.  Lincoln did that.  He had no vision.  No intellect.  No ability to reason.  He screwed up the nation forevermore. 
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Offline gstewart44

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2013, 12:42:51 PM »
Quote from: Mike in Virginia on June 11, 2013, 06:38:34 AM
Lincoln's original intention makes no difference now, does it?  Slave descendants are worse off than their slave ancestors.  Lincoln did that.  He had no vision.  No intellect.  No ability to reason.  He screwed up the nation forevermore.
Howkinju say sumpin lack dat?   Juthink de homeboys are wersoff dan de slabes?  Nomanno! Dey be gottin der Obamaphones, der rent paid fo', der gas in der rides, and dey don' be slabes.   
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #155 on: June 12, 2013, 03:47:12 AM »
    There descendants are worse off now ?   In what way ?  They have the same chance as anyone else to succeed .  School, College, a career in most anything they choose to try for just like anyone else.  They have the choice and it wasnt all due to Lincoln. America has given them equality. Where are they worse off ?
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #156 on: June 12, 2013, 04:26:37 AM »
I've explained it more than once already.  Look at how the majority of slavery descendants live, crime rates, prison population, etc.   You say they were given the same change as everyone else?  Obviously, one of two things is wrong with that assumption:  Either they didn't get the same chance, or they didn't take advantage of it.  I say it's the former.
 
The were loosed by force into the world to be "free" and do as they pleased.  But who was there to see that they got a chance to do anything.  The bunched up in slums much worse than the plantations where they thrived. 
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Offline DickelDawg

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #157 on: June 12, 2013, 05:44:34 AM »
We, Southern born and bred, call it the War of Northern Aggression because that is what it was. Don't like it! Tough! Go suck an egg!!
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Offline Soilman

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #158 on: June 12, 2013, 08:24:21 AM »
Pretty simple from where I sit.  Your in my house.  I ask you to leave.  You don't, so I throw your sorry tail out.  Then, you go get some buddies and you all break back into my house.  I generally call unwelcome guest that force themselves into my home the aggressors.
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #159 on: June 12, 2013, 03:57:00 PM »
  Yeah you have explained it several times with tweaks each time.  What your doing is comparing 150 yrs ago with today.
 That doesnt work..   With no assumption all slave decendants do have the same opportunities as anyone in this country.  Its there choice what they do with it and where they choose to do it.  There are no restrictions, its there choice.
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #160 on: June 12, 2013, 04:16:49 PM »
   Wrong Dick,  Some Southern call it War Of Northern Aggression, Not all.   Some Northern call it War of Southern Stupidity.
   It is simple.  You leave our home and take a portion of the property with you.  Maybe thats ok, but then you get greedy and come back for more and get pushy.  you push, I push.  you shoot, I shoot.  It would have been best to be happy with what you left with in the first place. Ill defend my property against aggressors as was done.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #161 on: June 13, 2013, 04:22:48 AM »
I hope you're not just  now realizing I definitely am comparing today with 150 years ago.  The freed slaves and their descendants haven't progressed at all during that time.  As a majority, they have actually backed up.  "Free choice," you say.  Who gave them that?  Lincoln!  What the heck did he think was going to happen to them?  Did he think the whites were going to give them jobs?  That didn't happen, did it?  Wake up and look at reality.  You can say we can't compare the two eras and that they had free choice, but it just isn't so.  You can't choose what's not available.  Comparison?  For sure and for certain.  They were under strict control, now they ain't.  Only a privileged few make their lives count for something in the white man's world.  But for the majority, they didn't have a chance from the get-go.  Their mindset was not established the same as the whites.  The whites had been building and doing and manufacturing and getting things done.  Suddenly the countryside was full of free range blacks with no way to survive.  They had to fight against the white mans animosity caused by Lincoln, and the fact that they knew nothing of progress.  I mean look at where they had only recently come from.  Not exactly a metropolis.  For untold generations before they were taken they ate with wooden utensils and turned a dead monkey on a stick over an outside fire to get the hair off before they cut it up and roasted it over that same fire.  Even after being forced onto the farms and plantations to create prosperity, they still did not have it in them to do it for themselves.  Not their fault.  A completely different culture. 
 
It seems to be Lincoln's aggression was half-ass.  He should have finished the job by shipping the freed slaves back home.  No, he figured that a kidnapped negro forced into slavery somehow received citizenship when he was freed, a citizenship in which they had no idea how to use. 
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #162 on: June 13, 2013, 11:19:49 AM »
  Realisticly you cant compare them.  I guess you can but I dont believe most would.  What your saying is the Black people today are no smarter or maybe not even as smart as they were 150 years ago ?  Your the one that needs to wake up and look around.  This isnt a White mans world any more .  Do you know who we have for a President ?  Im not saying he is anything great but he sure knew how to get where he is somehow and it wasnt from being stupid.  Look at how many Black Governors, Mayors, Representatives and elected or appointed officials this country has. How did they get there ?  It was due to a choice they had in life just like we all have . And it didnt start just yesterday. 
  How long were the slaves here before they were considered free ?  You dont think they learned anything in all that time ?
  Most that were here when they were freed knew very little about where there ancestors came from
  A lot of the problem is You wont give them any credit for what they know or can do.  I think you need to wake up a little..   There are plenty that complain about handouts not being enough but thats with every Race and it has nothing to do with Lincoln.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #163 on: June 13, 2013, 01:22:58 PM »
Anyone can name a few of anything.  As a whole, the black race is in poverty, but you won't look because it doesn't fit your fantasy.  Just look!  Take a little time to research.  Take a realistic look at who gets what, who gets arrested, who are the felons in prison, who gets free stuff.  What culture dominates what is bad with American society?  What did that culture do with the goods and money awarded to them for being flooded by Katrina.  Flooded, I might add, from the worst of slums.  Who was in the streets stealing and looting?  Lincoln did that.  Northern aggression caused it as certainly as it caused the race problem you can't see. 
 
That war resulted in a sadness that permeates every aspect of American society yet today.  The north didn't win.  No one did.  Everyone lost.  But no one lost more than the blacks and they are still on the losing.  They DO NOT have the same chance as a white man in this country.  That's just political talk from happy land. 
 
 
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #164 on: June 13, 2013, 04:26:48 PM »
    Is it really that hard for you to see the reality thats around us ?   The few you refer to dont begin to represent one race. The city you refer to has a mixture of people and yeah they all were looting and it wasnt right.  I never said anything about a race problem, you did but yeah there are several. Doesnt make it right either.  Ill agree everyone lost with that war.  But in todays world everyone has a chance if they choose to take it.
   I give you positive facts on some that have done well and you choose to ignore them because they dont fit your world either I guess, but they are what they are because they chose to be and they more than likely earned it .   
   Now Im not going to blame the South or the North for anything. Its been way to long and we all have made what we have.  Some choose to move on, others choose to place blame .
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #165 on: June 13, 2013, 04:34:36 PM »
I don't suppose we'll ever see it the same way.  I hope I didn't make an enemy of you.  Got plenty already. 
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #166 on: June 13, 2013, 04:51:21 PM »
No enemy here Mike.  after all the way this Govt is going we may be shoulder to shoulder one day.   No harm in a difference of oppinion..  Stay well.
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Offline tomtomz

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #167 on: June 13, 2013, 07:49:49 PM »
Listen to "Southern Rock Opera" or "Dirty South" by the Drive-By-Truckers.

Those Alabama boys are GREAT!
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2013, 08:24:35 AM »
Listened to it for about 30 seconds and shut that garbage off.
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #169 on: June 15, 2013, 06:52:21 AM »



   From about 1925 to 1965, there was a thriving black middle class in this country.  Every major city had large neighborhoods of black businesses, black professionals (including doctors, lawyers and dentists), black theaters and shops, all doing well.  Harlem, in New York, was a good example.  Beale Street in Memphis was another. 


   And then, it was all destroyed.  The "Great Society" program of Lyndon B. Johnson decided to hand out welfare to anyone who asked for it, and then to build the wonderful huge "projects" in the inner cities, to concentrate them in places to live for free.  Then arrived the heroin, coke and crack, and it was all over.


    These prior thriving areas became nothing but crime centers, then drug centers, and then murder centers.   Any black professional or businessman who could move out, did move out!  The whole black middle class system, and sense of community, collapsed in a very short time.


    Detroit, which is scheduled to file bankruptcy this week, is perhaps the most titanic example of them all.


Mannyrock
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #170 on: June 15, 2013, 03:27:35 PM »
rock, I don't get that.  Why is it only the black middle class (if there ever was such a thing) were destroyed.  Why didn't the white population fall entirely into that as did the blacks.  Are there white slums in the  major cities?  Are they as bad as black slums?
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #171 on: June 15, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »
No they are not, depending on your skin color.
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #172 on: June 16, 2013, 05:06:29 AM »
Mike,


   My only observation was that black people in this country were doing well economically during those years.  In contrast to your comment that they were all better off in slavery.


   And, I assume you know that there are far more white people on welfare and food stamps in this country than black people, in total numbers.


  White-trash welfare populations abound across the entire country. You live in Virginia, take a drive through the state for its entire length on the far west side of Interstate 81.  Cruise into West Virginia and take a good look as well.    Don't stop there.  Keep going until you get to eastern Kentucky.   I'm pretty sure you'll be ready to turn back.  And, if you ever get to upstate New York, drive the northern-most strip of the state, along the Canadian border, for almost its entire length.  White-trash welfare like you wouldn't believe.


  Mannyrock
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #173 on: June 16, 2013, 06:48:30 AM »
Quote from: mannyrock on June 16, 2013, 05:06:29 AM


   And, I assume you know that there are far more white people on welfare and food stamps in this country than black people, in total numbers.



And, gee....whites make up about 75% of out population, blacks around 13%.  Kinda makes sense that in terms of total numbers whites on welfare would outnumber blacks.   

In a discussion on abortion (and, I know, we are getting somewhat out of the letter of the scope of this forum, but I think that the spirit of it holds because we are still seeing in this the results of Reconstruction) I mentioned the failed "Great Society" experiment and the culture of dependence and victimhood it has spawned, especially in the black community.  I got a snippy reply something like "Well, if you did your research you would KNOW that white women account for 36% and black women only 32%!"  My reply was, "Yeah...and black women make up about 14% of the female population in the US.  So you say that 14% of the women accounting for "only" a third of the abortions is something to be proud of?"  Gotta look at the whole package and percentages in this case, not just the raw numbers.
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Offline Cabin4

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2013, 06:56:08 AM »
There are more white people living on poverty than any other race/group. Largest concentration of them are in Appalachia. With access to any type of service so limited in that region and little attention paid to them by our government and private charities, they are the hardest hit by poverty. When was the last time you saw a story on the news or 60 Min, Dateline, ect about this?? They dont cover it because they are just white people suffering and the leftist liberals that control the media could care less.
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Offline tomtomz

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #175 on: June 19, 2013, 07:40:14 PM »
Holy crap! Any more fact twisting and this thread will need to be renamed. 
I can't believe how hard people will defend the institution of slavery. It is and
was an utterly indefensible and inhumane institution.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #176 on: June 19, 2013, 11:46:57 PM »
Quote from: gandog56 on August 04, 2011, 06:13:31 AM
....when the South fired the first shots?
Its kinda like the Jews calling it the Holocaust while the Germans claim it never happened.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #177 on: June 20, 2013, 09:21:45 AM »
Quote from: greenmtnboy on June 12, 2013, 03:47:12 AM
    There descendants are worse off now ?   In what way ?  They have the same chance as anyone else to succeed .  School, College, a career in most anything they choose to try for just like anyone else.  They have the choice and it wasnt all due to Lincoln. America has given them equality. Where are they worse off ?

 The slaves have been fed fish but never taught to catch fish for themselves.
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #178 on: June 20, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »
     True,  But today they can learn to fish by simply asking how.
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Offline greenmtnboy

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Re: How Can You Call It The War Of Northern Aggression
« Reply #179 on: June 20, 2013, 04:28:11 PM »
Quote from: Ga.windbreak on June 19, 2013, 11:46:57 PM
Quote from: gandog56 on August 04, 2011, 06:13:31 AM
....when the South fired the first shots?
Its kinda like the Jews calling it the Holocaust while the Germans claim it never happened.
    And Japan never attacked the United States only Pearl Harbor..
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