not to impressed

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a 257 vanguard that copper fouls in about 8 rounds. the first couple 3 shot groups are fine then they open up fast and by the time you get 12 rounds down the barrel the groups are in the 5 inch range. Clean it then and its full of copper. I sent it to weatherby and they wont do anything. they say because i put a timney trigger and bedded it which i did because of the irratic way it shoots and the trigger was done because theres wouldnt adjust down past 5 lbs. Looks like i may have to rebarrel it as i just cant live with cleaning it after every group i shoot. Im sure not impressed with weatherbys customer service. I sure wont buy another. to get warantee coverage on a weatherby you cant just sent it to them. You have to go through a autorized service center and up here its gander mountain. The local gander mountain sent it to there regional gunsmith and he agrees with me that it definately isnt right but weatherby wont do a thing. Its pretty convient they do it that way and put a buffer between there customers and there service policys.

[fatercat]

what make bullets???

[BBF]

Nothing new, any modification usually voids warranties.

[Lloyd Smale]

117 sierra fb and bt
117 hornady
115 nos bt
115 nos part
120 nos part
120 speer bt
100 sierra bt
100 nos bt
1oo nos pt
100 speer
100 barnes tsx
90 sierra hp
80 barnes tsx
Ive tried all these bullets with 4831sc re22 re25, h1000, 7828 and retumbo. As you can see i gave it a fair shake.  As to the modifications i could see if they effected the problem but how does replacing a trigger or bedding a stock effect a barrel coppering up.

what make bullets???

[bulletstuffer]

Lloyd,
 
Looks like a registered letter to Weatherby by might be in order to someone higher in the food chain.  Ask them a direct question how a trigger and bedding effects the the rifle barrel to copper foul so quickly.  I would never buy a vanguard based on your experience with their customer service.  I like to buy high end products as the customer service is usually better. 
 
My friend has a browning that the barrel that was doing the same thing.  He spoke with Browning, he sent the gun in with the explanation.  They tested it and the gun was sent back to him with a brand new barrel.  Problem solved, no more fowling and it shoots much better than the old barrel. 
 
Good luck,
 
Bulletstuffer

[possume]

how fast are you pushing them bullets?are you loading on the hot side i have a 243 that if i load hot it will foul in under ten rounds

[BBF]

Lloyd:
Anything related to the fine print will be used, especially if it is on the lower end of the price tag of their products.
 
BTW Vanguards are made where?

[bobg]

  I own a Vanguard in 270 Win. I am impressed with that rifle. Bought a Vanguard in 22-250. It shot patterns not groups. Took it back to the dealer. He shot every brand of ammo he had in the store in it. Same results. He returned it to Weatherby. It was returned with a note in the box stateing if a target rifle was wanted that is what should have been bought. Traded it for a Ruger. Decided to give them one more chance. Bought a Lazer Mark in 240 Weatherby mag. It wouldn't feed a round from the magazine to the chamber. Three trips back and never fixed. Traded that for another Ruger. They scratched the hell out of the stock and told me it was like that when they got it the last trip. Their customer service sucks.

[Lloyd Smale]

bobg it looks like you confirmed my initial impression of them. Seems like a company that wants to sell you there guns and forget you exist. Probably why they sell most of there guns through stores like walmart and gander mountain and dont have a way for you to send a gun to them directly. they let walmart and gander either replace the gun or screen you before you can get work done. they definately need to sit in on training by dillon or rcbs on the proper way to treat customers to keep them comming back. They sure did loose this customer.

[nomosendero]

It seems this is the direction most gun companies are going, sad situation.

[Yodavader]

I have the same problem with my Savage 12BVSS , it quickly fouls after a few groups , but it does shoot well when cleaned. My Vanguard Deluxe in .30-06 luckily does not have fouling issues.

[Slowpoke Slim]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a wood stocked Vanguard, same caliber. I've been very happy with mine. After load development, I only shoot one load, that's the 115 gr Nos BT's over RL-22. The rifle will shoot sub-moa groups with that load if I don't let the barrel get too hot. I can shoot 3 shots at a sitting, but not 5. After the 3rd shot, the barrel is too hot to touch, and I put it in the rack to cool and shoot something else. If I don't let it cool, the groups open up dramatically.

I'm sure you already know all of this about barrel heat, so I'm not insinuating you don't. I also put a Timney trigger in mine, because the factory trigger was horrible. Nice to know if I ever have a problem with mine that Weatherby will void my warranty for that. My stock is still factory bedded though, so maybe they'll cover half?

I'm not sure how many rounds I've tried to run down the barrel between cleanings... mine's a deer rifle, not a target rifle, so the shot count is pretty low for me. I'm pretty sure I've run 25 rounds in a string between cleanings, during load development, but I doubt it's ever been more than that. And not since I settled on my load. I don't recall the groups opening up from fouling, but I do remember pulling a bunch of copper out of the bore. I just attribute that to the velocity of the bullet down the bore in this cartridge.

I guess it just goes to show that any maker can produce a turd now and again. Sorry they won't fix it for you.

[Lloyd Smale]

just got done shooting some loads in mine after i spent some time firelapping the barrel. What a differnce!! Groups were about cut in half and no more fouled barrel in 10 shots. As a matter of fact it shot a moa group with the barrel so hot you couldnt touch it and it had been fouled by 25 shots. .

[hunt-m-up]

Glad to hear it's straightened out for you. I've had good experience with the three Vanguards I own. Of course I've never had to test customer service, which can really sour one's opinion of a company in a hurry.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup youd better buy them with an open mind knowing that if its not right your going to be stuck with it. I guess i could have sold it but then id just be sticking someone else with a dud. I was pretty pleased that i got the big improvement i did lapping it. Ive done alot of handguns but this is the first rifle ive lapped and i wasnt holding my breath. Sure seemed to do the trick though. took it out again tonight and it even shot 100 grain tsx barnes into an inch and it sprayed them before it was lapped. that will probably be the load i try on crop damage deer this year with it. youd think a company like weatherby would be intellegent enough to know that they could have done a cheap fix and had me bragging on there sevice dept rather then warning people to stay away from there guns. Im sure that it would have cost them less to fix this gun then what they would loose on even one sale from someone reading this post. Problem is theres no more rifleman like roy weatherby or bill ruger at these companys anymore. Theres nothing but suit wearing accountants that could care less about anyting but the numbers.

[nomosendero]

just got done shooting some loads in mine after i spent some time firelapping the barrel. What a differnce!! Groups were about cut in half and no more fouled barrel in 10 shots. As a matter of fact it shot a moa group with the barrel so hot you couldnt touch it and it had been fouled by 25 shots. .

Lloyd, which method/product did you use.

[Lloyd Smale]

I took cloverland valve lapping compound and put a dab on two peices of plexiglass and rolled the bullets between the two pieces to impregnate them with compound. I casted 30 pure lead 25 cal bullets and left them unsized. I then loaded them with 6 grains of unique. I shot 5 shots then cleaned and repeated untill al 4o were shot. then i took 20 more and impregnated them with jb bore paste which isnt near as abrasive and did the same. I then cleaned it real good and shot 10 barnes tsx bullets out of it and cleaned it real good again.

[nomosendero]

Sounds good, glad it helped. I have used the Tubb's system in 3 guns. It really helped 2 of them & a small improvement in 1.

[Brithunter]

Sorry to hear of you issues and glad you have sorted it.


Sadly I am not supprised at Weatherby's treatment of you they never have been very good at customer service from a friends experience with his .223 Vanguard and that was over 10 years ago now.


Part of the problem I believe is that Weatherby of course make nothing them selves so rely upon sub contractors.


 Howa might have been more help..


Also I have heard of this problem before with button rifled barrels  . Local gunshop had similar problems with a couple of Remington 700 varmints rifles. Not able to shoot under a 3" group with any factory ammo tried at 50 paces from a rest !!!! Remington's importers were not really interested either.. he now does not offer Remingtons for sale has one 710 on the rack that has sat there for several years now. Not surprisingly really....

[curteric]

Lloyd
What grit of lapping compound did you use?


Curt

[Swampman]

No Howaguards for me.....

[Graybeard]

Also I have heard of this problem before with button rifled barrels   . Local gunshop had similar problems with a couple of Remington 700 varmints rifles. Not able to shoot under a 3" group with any factory ammo tried at 50 paces from a rest !!!! Remington's importers were not really interested either.. he now does not offer Remingtons for sale has one 710 on the rack that has sat there for several years now. Not surprisingly really....

Remington does NOT import anything used on Model 700 rifles. They make their own barrels using the hammer forging process so they aren't button rifled.

I've not dealt with Weatherby customer service in a very long time but they once were excellent. I bought a MKXXII rimfire semiauto rifle by Weatherby in the sixties I believe it was. It came with a Weatherby branded scope. The crosshairs on it broke and it was promptly replaced. The replacement eventually did the same and it too was promptly replace with another. That one never broke well I shouldn't say that as Matt may have broken it all I know for sure is he made it dissappear when it was on their pellet rifle.

[Brithunter]

Also I have heard of this problem before with button rifled barrels   . Local gunshop had similar problems with a couple of Remington 700 varmints rifles. Not able to shoot under a 3" group with any factory ammo tried at 50 paces from a rest !!!! Remington's importers were not really interested either.. he now does not offer Remingtons for sale has one 710 on the rack that has sat there for several years now. Not surprisingly really....

Remington does NOT import anything used on Model 700 rifles. They make their own barrels using the hammer forging process so they aren't button rifled.

I've not dealt with Weatherby customer service in a very long time but they once were excellent. I bought a MKXXII rimfire semiauto rifle by Weatherby in the sixties I believe it was. It came with a Weatherby branded scope. The crosshairs on it broke and it was promptly replaced. The replacement eventually did the same and it too was promptly replace with another. That one never broke well I shouldn't say that as Matt may have broken it all I know for sure is he made it dissappear when it was on their pellet rifle.

I hear that Remington were installing hammer forged equipement. Just how long have they been using it because surely they used to use button rifling.  Perhaps you can explain this then:-

Whilst the process is simple, the technology required to get good results is quite advanced which is why it was not until the middle of this century that it became a generally used technique. It was perfected in the late 1940's at the Remington factory at Ilion largely due to the efforts of Mike Walker, who used the workshop of Clyde Hart in nearby Lafayette for some of the experimental work. The button must be very hard and also tough enough not the break up under the stresses involved as it is pulled through the barrel. The lubricants used to keep the button from getting stuck in the barrel must not break down under the very high pressures involved - it takes around 10,000 pounds of force to pull a button down a barrel. The sort of lubricants used in the press moulding business are what button barrel makers pick through to see what suits, though most makers of button rifled barrels are very secretive about lubricant they use!

That was taken from the article:-

THE MAKING OF A RIFLED BARREL.

by Geoffrey Kolbe
I suppose he "might not know of which he speaks" but somehow find it unlikely. Border Barrels which he set up and runs has a Pratt & Whitney cut rifling machine and in the last few years due to demand has installed button rifling equipment.
Another rather amusing thing is that major US manufactures are going to hammer forging ,a method they once decried as poor, and that the US Armies Remington Sniper rifles have Hammer forged barrels for their superior performance with 5R rifling which as far as I can tell, so far anyway, is the old Enfield form of rifling designed my Metford.

[parkergunshop]

Brithunter,
 
You might find this link interesting.
http://bettincustomguns.com/Technical%20Information/Barrel%20rifling%20techniques.htm
It explains why cut rifle barrels are more accurate and are used more often on benchrest and target rifles.  And it explains the advantages and disadvantages cost wise for the three major barrel making processes.
Cut rifled,  Hammer Forged, Button Rifled.
Another article close to home in England:
 
http://www.armalon.com/public/static/page/4
 
Major Arms companies using hammer forging:
Sako and Tikka H&k, Styer, Sauer, Ruger, Remington, Winchester, FN, Weatherby, Browning.

[Swampman]

Whatever Remington is doing the rest should follow in hopes of producing accurate rifles.

[parkergunshop]

Swampman,
Remington is following in the footsteps of the European manufacturers who developed the hammer forging process and most manufacturers  are using hammer forging equipment made in Austria.
Missed another point, the most accurate barrels are made by the button rifling or cut rifling processes, but they are  labor intensive and connot compete in the mass retail market.   There is about $100 more labor in a button or cut rifled barrel than in a hammer forged barrel for example.  You will not see a hammer forged barrel at a NBRSA bench rest match.
Hammer forging is great for hunting rifles and military use due to the fast manufacture and lower labor costs.   Another point a barrel hammer forging machine costs around 1 million.
 

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

   Parker, Interesting info...I have used many Douglas barrels and a few Shilen...what is their process if you know off hand, and also, what barrels do you find most accuate with out paying a small fortune...Have a couple Lilja also..the are accurate, but haven't beat the Douglas Air G. barrels..thanks..

[parkergunshop]

Wyo Coyote,
Douglas, Lilja, Shilen and Hart barrels are button rifled, many of the other custom barrels by the smaller manufacturers are cut rifle the old way which was invented in I believe 1492.  Remington pioneered button rifling right after World War II but swithed to hammer forging barrels following in Ruger's footsteps after 1999.   So if you have a Remington barrel made before the year 2000 it should be button rifled.  Rugers before 1999 button rifled after 1999 hammer forged using equipment from Austria.
I have very accurate Douglas Barrels and a Hart barrel which is also very accurate.   On standard hunting rifles Shaw barrels are plenty accurate enough and will group between three and six tenths of an inch if properly installed on a good action with a good stock bedding job.
Quote on cut rifled barrels:

I believe that you are more likely to get a top of the line tack driver by cut rifling a barrel than by any other method. Bench rest shooters in the States are rediscovering the cut rifled barrel and there may well be a revolution when cut rifled barrel makers, who have been quietly persisting over the years with this demanding technique, find shooters at the very highest levels of accuracy banging on the doors of their barrel shops.

http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm

[Swampman]

So why is it that none of those off brands shoot as well as an out of the box Remington 700?

[parkergunshop]

Swampman,
The observations recently say that the Savage barrels will shoot with the Remingtons and they are button rifled.  I have found the pre2000 Remington barrels made by button rifling to be as accurate or more accurate than  the hammer forged barrels of recent vintage.  The most accurate non benchrest Remington 700 I worked on sported a Hart .308 Winchester stainless steel barrel and was capable of 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. in a 8 pound hunting weight rifle.
Several other brands with hammer forged barrels will stay with the Remingtons made recently as far accuracy goes,  as the other manufacturers are catching up in the accuracy department.
Again Hammer forging is cheaper than button rifling not always better otherwise.   And as noted Remington followed Ruger and most of the other European manufacturers in this area, not a leader, but a follower to reduce manufacturing costs and stay competitive.