Close The Loopholes, Tax The Rich!

[Dixie Dude]

The "free trade" agreements sounded good to start with if it was with Mexico alone.  Idea was to create low skilled manufacturing jobs in Mexico to keep the illegals out and bring their standard of living up.  Then when we opened to door to China, it killed Mexico also.  Even a few years ago, Mexico said China took their factories.  Average Mexican gets $0.75 an hour compared to China's $0.10 per hour wage equivelant in American money.  Both parties wanted these, Bush I pushed Nafta, Clinton opened the door to China in 1998.  Dems were in control of congress in Bush I era and GOP was in Clinton.  Giant sucking sound.  Lost lower middle class, lost health care, lost tax base.  Home building under Bush II worked for awhile to keep people employed.  However, again both parties to blame on allowing no down payments, ARM mortgages etc, which caused the crash. 
 
Again, cut imported oil by switching to natural gas, diesels, and hybrids.  Allow more drilling here.
 
Renegotiate the free trade agreements to bring jobs back home.  Institute tarriffs where imports hurt American jobs.  Leave off tarriffs on imported tropical fruits and nuts and imported minerals.   

[mcwoodduck]

TM therein is the problem with your flat tax.  What incentive is it to work harder, get a better education, get a better job, if you have to pay higher taxes.  No incentive for moving up in the world.   By your scale, a person making $100,000 might have to pay $50,000 in taxes, and a person making $60,000 might pay $10,000 in taxes.  Doesn't pay to move up.  Tax everyone the same flat percentage rate with no deductions.  Rich would pay more with no deductions, poor would still pay some, but not nearly as much.  Rich already pay far more in tax.  Why do you think they move factories overseas?  Why do you think they claim profits overseas like GE and not pay taxes here?  Could it be that China has no corporate income tax?  hmmm.  Some European's have less corporate tax also.  JUST CUT THE STUPID FEDERAL BUDGET TO THE BONE, THEN LET'S SEE WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FIRST.

You're the one that wants a fair or flat tax....thats what a real flat tax looks like...don't know if your example is pertinent or not. Truth is wealthy folks pay less than ever and we are in worse shape than ever.  Point is 2% of the poulation receive 50% of the wealth and income in the USA and pay about 20% of the tax bill....these are not $100,000/year people as you suggest...these people esentially pay taxes at the same rate as regular middle class folks , which is ard 17% net effective rate THAT IS IF THEY PAY ANY TAXES AT ALL. ,,,YET still no jobs, more offshoring, while middle class real income dwindles and evaportes....BUT MIDDLE CLASS CAN SEND THEIR DAUGHTERS AND SONS OFF TO THE ELITE WARS. .Essentially the USA has returned to a feudal kingdom with the peasants in some kind of worshipful mass dream Stockholm Syndrome state.
 .
Bohner and Cantor with TP assist cut the budget, except the largest line items...which is the mil and intell and intell of course, about 53% expenditures,,,that's hands off...BHO signed on to this...So they will be coming for your SS and medicare next.....Nice way to treat elderly and infirm in a great country I should say... . this in the environment of claiming the USA is turning socialists or marxist...what a bunch of BS...this is the opposite of socialism....this is elitistism breaking any 'social contract' that ever existed in a civilized country.
 
..TM7

We can have a fair flat tax.  We have a poverty line.  Why not use the poverty line as a base.  As the standard of living goes up the poverty line level increases.  So lets pick 4X the povery line startes the tax rate.  If the poverty line is 10K for a family of 4 then the first 40K is tax free.  Wverything from 4X to 10X is 5%, 10X to 50X is 7 or 8% and everything above 50X is 10% max.
It is both a flat tax and a progressive tax.  Should make those that think the rich need ot be punnished for providing the goods and services that people want.  The Low tax rates will allow growth, will allow higher pay, and a higher standard of living, and new products, technology, and research.   At the same time makeing people do what makes economic sense rather than what makes tax sense but would be a money looser other wise.  The low tax will allow the economy to grow and morte money will head to the federal and state treasuries giveing the liberals more money for Social programs, while it will never be enough it will be more than we have now and less will have to be borrowed causeing us to go further in debt and spending more on debt service than on schools and programs.

[BUGEYE]

Dixie Dude,  everything you say is right on.  why anyone would want to deliberately destroy America is beyond me.  haven't they noticed how it was in USSR, east germany etc?  the opposite of capitalism is communism.

[Gary G]

I agree with you DD...you can't compete with the Chinese slave system, except I do believe they have a 20% corp tax....that's why free trade means death to American trade...just that simple...yet TP and GOP campaign for less and less tax and less and less regs...this is anti-American in the sense it spells doom for the American system.  Either you are for American system or you are against it...Balanced trade is an interesting theoretical concept....but very hard to compete with a slavery system, that's why elitist talk and desires is psychobabble...meaning less to middle class who see the light.
 
But Americans are being conditoned to accept this slavery system right here....
 
..TM7
.

TM, the way you compete with China, etc, is with capital. For example a man paid $50 / hour with a bulldozer can move more dirt than ten chinese paid $5/hr. with wheelbarrows and shovels. A bulldozer is a capital good; before it was a bulldozer it was money saved (time deposits). Now then the problem is that excess government has bled available capital from the system with high taxes, cost of excessive regulation, and low interest rates which discourage savings.

[SHOOTALL]

A while back the govt put a tax on yatchs In the end thousans of Americans were out of work. Most libs think if you over tax the rich they will pay and go on. Some what stupid really . In the case of the big boats they got new ones in the islands and other countries . These people are rich because they know how to make and keep money. Better to encourage them to buy here than tax them away. BTW the tax on big boats cost the govt. not bring in mo money.

[Casull]

 

A while back the govt put a tax on yatchs In the end thousans of Americans were out of work. Most libs think if you over tax the rich they will pay and go on. Some what stupid really . In the case of the big boats they got new ones in the islands and other countries . These people are rich because they know how to make and keep money. Better to encourage them to buy here than tax them away. BTW the tax on big boats cost the govt. not bring in mo money.

     Excellent example.  Funny how jealousy and wanting to stick it to the rich makes some people do stupid things.

[Dixie Dude]

You know, being rich is not a sin.  The LOVE of money is the ROOT of evil.  The POOR in America LOVE the money of the rich and want some of it.  This is another sin covetousness.  You can be Rich and give 20% of your income to good works.  A poor person may not give a dime for the dollar they have and be bitter with envy, covetousness, and jealousy.  Who is the sinner?  Dems have played the race card, the class card, and every other card.  They HAVE NO IDEAS to increase productivity, wealth, and grow America.  GOP trys to get people to learn and understand the FREE MARKET CAPITALISM system.  The super rich bankers are the ones manipulating the economy right now, not the corporations, not Wall Street, the BANKERS, like the unaudited Federal Reserve system. 

[mcwoodduck]

You know, being rich is not a sin.  The LOVE of money is the ROOT of evil.  The POOR in America LOVE the money of the rich and want some of it.  This is another sin covetousness.  You can be Rich and give 20% of your income to good works.  A poor person may not give a dime for the dollar they have and be bitter with envy, covetousness, and jealousy.  Who is the sinner?  Dems have played the race card, the class card, and every other card.  They HAVE NO IDEAS to increase productivity, wealth, and grow America.  GOP trys to get people to learn and understand the FREE MARKET CAPITALISM system.  The super rich bankers are the ones manipulating the economy right now, not the corporations, not Wall Street, the BANKERS, like the unaudited Federal Reserve system.

Dixie Dude,
Free market capitalism is the best use of resources and provides the best products for the lowest price, encourages inovation, and raises the standards of living.  Something that control freaks do not understand.  It is the control freaks (government officials who write rules and regs)  The Bankers are using the rules and regulations to their advantage.   We all look atthe rules and regulatiuon and try to use them to our advantage.  Part of the problem is some of the rules and regs go against common sense and business practices but are rules and regs and need to be followed.  The whole think about not hating the player hate the game.  Well the rules and regs and the morons that write them are the game and we need to change them.  We are sending people to DC to be law makers and since they want it to be a carreer rathenr then a job, they show they are working hard nad making laws, rules and regs nad many of them.  Heck look at the tax law some of it conflicts!  But they wrote the laws.
The Sin and love of money being the root of all evil I think has more to do with Government than it has to do with a single person or a corperation.  Finally the people that were given a free fish by those that know how to fish are no demanding that we burn the boat to cook the fish rather than gather their own fire wood not understanding or worse caring that it is going to make fishing impossible.

[mcwoodduck]

We are behind because of all the rules and regulations make it cheaper to build a factory in China and pay to have slave labor nad the shipping to and from, rather than pay the fees and fines to build a factory here.  Remember shovel ready.... Rules and regulations killed the shovel ready projects and made the summer of recovery a laughing stock and the butt of a bunch of late night jokes.  Right now the Rules and regulations and the permit fees are about 50% of the cost of the building.
No matter what we put inplace to try to compete with china, tarrifs, taxes, our own slave labor in the form of prison or welfare work forces, or what have you, if we can not build a factory here it will not matter, if we can not build a power plant to provide the power needed to run factories or the refineries needed to fuel the trucks moving the goods and raw materielas as well as the workers, taxes and tarrifs do not matter.  All they will do is make a good more expensive and hurt our economy further.  The problem we have is we have allowed others to be able to tell us what we can do with our property because they don't want it to change. 

[sidewinder319]

This is a struggle between the producers and those who suffer from Political Envy. Those who are unwilling or unable to participate in a capitalist system envy the wealth of those who produce and save. They believe that  they should share in what ever others make.  They want to punish anyone who is doing better than they are. The cry for taxes on 4/10s of the population is only redistribution of wealth.

[nomosendero]

This is a struggle between the producers and those who suffer from Political Envy. Those who are unwilling or unable to participate in a capitalist system envy the wealth of those who produce and save. They believe that  they should share in what ever others make.  They want to punish anyone who is doing better than they are. The cry for taxes on 4/10s of the population is only redistribution of wealth.

Kinda has a 1917 ring to it, doesn't it?

[sidewinder319]

That is very true. I think if Karl Marx was alive today he would be posting left wing propaganda on this forum. He would be in total agreement with our liberal contributors.

[JustaShooter]

Flat tax might work...those that earn 50% of the income and revenue pay 50% percent of the tax bill,,,,those that earn 25% of the income and revenue pay 25% of the tax bill, those that earn 15% of the income and revenue pay 15% of the tax bill, and so on and so forth...now that's a real flat tax..

OK, here we go:

The top 5% each earned $159,619 or more in income (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% earned 34.7% of the nation's income. (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% paid 58.72% of federal income taxes (as of 2008, http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)

So, by your reckoning, they pay more than they should and should get a tax cut!

Next,
The bottom 50% each earned less than $33,048
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the nation's income
The bottom 50% paid of federal income taxes 2.70%

So, by your reckoning, they pay less than they should and should get a tax increase!

As usual TM, your just a bit off in your thinking (although, I suspect you didn't understand what you were saying...  )

Just a Shooter

[Empty Quiver]

What exactly is the plan when the rich have run out of money?


Not likely, but maybe I could get on board if I saw a workable solution going forward. Say for instance, it were winter and we would burn hundred dollar bills to heat Wrigey Field (of coarse it is an open top structure, it's other peoples money, so who cares).  Summer is coming though and it always gets warm enough and the shelters are nearly finished. Okay, I suppose, you have to do what you have to do. Going forward we won't have to heat the outdoors and some had to sacrifice.


There are no plans for the future. When the rich have been robbed, raped, and killed, their flesh fed to the starving masses what then shall we do?  Czarist Russia is a pretty good example of where this is going. The names on the doors of power were changed, a different class of people were fed to the machinery and the poor and lazy were still poor and lazy.

[mcwoodduck]

Flat tax might work...those that earn 50% of the income and revenue pay 50% percent of the tax bill,,,,those that earn 25% of the income and revenue pay 25% of the tax bill, those that earn 15% of the income and revenue pay 15% of the tax bill, and so on and so forth...now that's a real flat tax..

OK, here we go:

The top 5% each earned $159,619 or more in income (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% earned 34.7% of the nation's income. (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% paid 58.72% of federal income taxes (as of 2008, http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)

So, by your reckoning, they pay more than they should and should get a tax cut!

Next,
The bottom 50% each earned less than $33,048
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the nation's income
The bottom 50% paid of federal income taxes 2.70%

So, by your reckoning, they pay less than they should and should get a tax increase!

As usual TM, your just a bit off in your thinking (although, I suspect you didn't understand what you were saying...  )

Just a Shooter

Just a shooter,
No matter what facts you use, no matter how you show their beliefs and logic is flawed, they will not budge from the flawed beliefs you just showed were flawed.  Liberals are liberals and feel it should be this way or that, they feel they know how to run your business better than you do. 

[nomosendero]

Flat tax might work...those that earn 50% of the income and revenue pay 50% percent of the tax bill,,,,those that earn 25% of the income and revenue pay 25% of the tax bill, those that earn 15% of the income and revenue pay 15% of the tax bill, and so on and so forth...now that's a real flat tax..

OK, here we go:

The top 5% each earned $159,619 or more in income (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% earned 34.7% of the nation's income. (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% paid 58.72% of federal income taxes (as of 2008, http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)

So, by your reckoning, they pay more than they should and should get a tax cut!

Next,
The bottom 50% each earned less than $33,048
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the nation's income
The bottom 50% paid of federal income taxes 2.70%

So, by your reckoning, they pay less than they should and should get a tax increase!

As usual TM, your just a bit off in your thinking (although, I suspect you didn't understand what you were saying...  )

Just a Shooter

Just a shooter,
No matter what facts you use, no matter how you show their beliefs and logic is flawed, they will not budge from the flawed beliefs you just showed were flawed.  Liberals are liberals and feel it should be this way or that, they feel they know how to run your business better than you do.

MC, that's it in a nutshell. We have had this same argument in different forums on this matter for several years with the same result.

[SHOOTALL]

Liberals are flawed in their thinking . They believe if you go to a gun fight unarmed the other guy won't shoot you. Those on the right are willing to talk to the other guy but carry a gun just in case . Reach way down in your heart and decide what makes more sense . It really is that simple.

[Empty Quiver]

TM7, the deal is I may never be rich but the possability is what keeps me going after the golden ring. The knowledge that what wealth I may accumulate will be confiscated by my government to help out those who have given up and are on the dole burns my butt. Sounds as though you have already gotten yours, let me pursue mine.


Matter of fact, just leave me alone pretty well encapsulates my phylosophy. I am stupid enough to leave other people to there own business with the assumption they will do likewise. When I find they are living their lives to thwart me I find myself wanting to curb their liberties. Which I suppose makes me as bad as they are, in their view. I'm just about to become a Monsanto cheerleader, just to piss of the crowd that among other things wants to take away fur, wild game meat and my truck. Fry myself up a young Spotted Owl in whale oil, burn down an old growth forest for a new ORV park.


A simple sales tax will suffice. Erect a guilotine on the national mall for those who would complicate it. The French ocassionally get something right.

[JustaShooter]

Flat tax might work...those that earn 50% of the income and revenue pay 50% percent of the tax bill,,,,those that earn 25% of the income and revenue pay 25% of the tax bill, those that earn 15% of the income and revenue pay 15% of the tax bill, and so on and so forth...now that's a real flat tax..

OK, here we go:

The top 5% each earned $159,619 or more in income (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% earned 34.7% of the nation's income. (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% paid 58.72% of federal income taxes (as of 2008, http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)

So, by your reckoning, they pay more than they should and should get a tax cut!

Next,
The bottom 50% each earned less than $33,048
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the nation's income
The bottom 50% paid of federal income taxes 2.70%

So, by your reckoning, they pay less than they should and should get a tax increase!

As usual TM, your just a bit off in your thinking (although, I suspect you didn't understand what you were saying...  )

Just a Shooter

 
justa....Deceptively or Funny you 'neglected' to tell our forum readers that your tax assumptions are based on IRS data per their demographics from those taxpayers showing only a positive AGI....huge world of difference when my reality based flat tax idea would be based on actual revenues and incomes.  And anyway, yes...lower income levels can pay a share of income tax, too....which is a big beef of self-styled conservatives as well.

Here's what we're talking about in reality.... share of wealth is directly correlated to yearly income and revenues derived (before AGI magic)...from Harvard Business School:
 

 

As to the AGI - yes, my numbers are based on adjusted gross income. I wasn't able to find numbers based on gross income, but chances are it isn't as different as you think, especially with AMT and the lowest income earners receiving higher adjustments as a percentage of income (in many cases, removing them from the range of positive AGI entirely).  Including them would almost certainly shift the numbers even further in the direction I was showing). If your flat tax has no adjustments, then it would be even harder on the lowest income earners. 

But it seems like you are willing (unlike most others who shout "Tax the Rich!") to put a greater burden on the poor.

As to your chart, Wealth is not equal to income, and significant wealth accumulation doesn't happen until much higher up the income range than you seem to think.  In any case, our gov't taxes income, not wealth.  And if you look at the spending curve of the next 50 years, it becomes apparent that you can tax 100% of the income over $200,000 single $250,000 married and still not be able to pay the bills.  Which means, you have to start taxing the middle class and lower class more and more.  It isn't hard to see a time where the spending curve intersects the total gross income curve - and then literally everyone is working for the govt - in the sense that every penny earned has to go to the gov't to feed its unending appetite of other peoples money.

Crawl back under your rock, TM.  Taxing the rich isn't the answer.  Serious spending cuts and control over future spending is.

Just a Shooter

[SwampThing762]

Flat tax might work...those that earn 50% of the income and revenue pay 50% percent of the tax bill,,,,those that earn 25% of the income and revenue pay 25% of the tax bill, those that earn 15% of the income and revenue pay 15% of the tax bill, and so on and so forth...now that's a real flat tax..

OK, here we go:

The top 5% each earned $159,619 or more in income (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% earned 34.7% of the nation's income. (as of 2008, http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html)
The top 5% paid 58.72% of federal income taxes (as of 2008, http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html)

So, by your reckoning, they pay more than they should and should get a tax cut!

Next,
The bottom 50% each earned less than $33,048
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the nation's income
The bottom 50% paid of federal income taxes 2.70%

So, by your reckoning, they pay less than they should and should get a tax increase!

As usual TM, your just a bit off in your thinking (although, I suspect you didn't understand what you were saying...  )

Just a Shooter

 
justa....Deceptively or Funny you 'neglected' to tell our forum readers that your tax assumptions are based on IRS data per their demographics from those taxpayers showing only a positive AGI....huge world of difference when my reality based flat tax idea would be based on actual revenues and incomes.  And anyway, yes...lower income levels can pay a share of income tax, too....which is a big beef of self-styled conservatives as well.

Here's what we're talking about in reality.... share of wealth is directly correlated to yearly income and revenues derived (before AGI magic)...from Harvard Business School:
 

 

As to the AGI - yes, my numbers are based on adjusted gross income. I wasn't able to find numbers based on gross income, but chances are it isn't as different as you think, especially with AMT and the lowest income earners receiving higher adjustments as a percentage of income (in many cases, removing them from the range of positive AGI entirely).  Including them would almost certainly shift the numbers even further in the direction I was showing). If your flat tax has no adjustments, then it would be even harder on the lowest income earners. 

But it seems like you are willing (unlike most others who shout "Tax the Rich!") to put a greater burden on the poor.

As to your chart, Wealth is not equal to income, and significant wealth accumulation doesn't happen until much higher up the income range than you seem to think.  In any case, our gov't taxes income, not wealth.  And if you look at the spending curve of the next 50 years, it becomes apparent that you can tax 100% of the income over $200,000 single $250,000 married and still not be able to pay the bills.  Which means, you have to start taxing the middle class and lower class more and more.  It isn't hard to see a time where the spending curve intersects the total gross income curve - and then literally everyone is working for the govt - in the sense that every penny earned has to go to the gov't to feed its unending appetite of other peoples money.

Crawl back under your rock, TM.  Taxing the rich isn't the answer.  Serious spending cuts and control over future spending is.

Just a Shooter

Shooter, excellent post.  I posted the same data in another thread to show just how wrong TM's thinking is.   Wealth is not income, it is a product of income.   I do agree with you and nomosendero  insofar as the libocrats here at GBO, and in the USA as a whole, will never change their thought process.   

The key to economic recovery is going to lessen the burden of regulation, cut government, reform the tax code dropping all income tax rates and going to a national sales tax (make the moochers pay some taxes....that's gotta make the libocrats wince), and get Obama the hell out of the White House.

ST762

[gypsyman]

This economy is like a boat sinking. And, she's going down fast. You plug the hole, fix the leak, then bail. This thing is going down like the Titanic. And the guy in charge is looking for another iceburg. The rich don't have enough money to keep this from going down. Stop spending NOW. Plug the hole. Then worry about how to keep it afloat. gypsyman

[SHOOTALL]

This economy is like a boat sinking. And, she's going down fast. You plug the hole, fix the leak, then bail. This thing is going down like the Titanic. And the guy in charge is looking for another iceburg. The rich don't have enough money to keep this from going down. Stop spending NOW. Plug the hole. Then worry about how to keep it afloat. gypsyman

agenda , agenda at all cost . agenda drive it home . freedom dosen't fit the agenda .
 
Sometimes do ya'll wonder if the libs are having a contest to see who will be the one to end America as the home of the free ?

[JustaShooter]

justa:

Crawl back under your rock, TM.  Taxing the rich isn't the answer.  Serious spending cuts and control over future spending is.

 
When self-styled conservatives make commnets like this you gotta know you're being gamed.  Fact is wealth is in direct correlation to incomes, revenues, and gains. Top 400 corps zero or show negative AGI as do top 1400 personal returns...both groups probably received credits. Your IRS data is skewed and for gullible consumption. You failed to find real data, gee! You're likely one of those guys that go around telling the sheople that taxes on capital gains should be zero% while at same time yakking about spending cuts,,,,that is except the largest budget line items shouldn't be cut...In fact, you're likely a guy that says SS and Medicare are unconstitutional and we need those promisary monies to carry on the WAR.
 
Nobody argues against spending control measures...one measure is ending corruption and 'gifts' to corporations....and cutting from  largest budget line items for starters and proper taxation...that's called a balanced approach...Extremist as yourself always display disdain for regular working folks and demand genuflecture to elilists and their agenda. People are figuring this out.  In fact, likely you're an astroturfer here.
 
..TM7

Extremist?  Astroturfer?  Guess I must be effective if TM is starting to call me names.  I'll wear it like a badge of honor! 

For the record, TM, I've never said or believed that capital gains should be untaxed.  Capital gains are income and should be taxed as such.  Likewise, I've never said I am against SS or Medicare.  And finally, I've never said we need those moneys "to carry on the WAR" whatever that means (and if you are referring to the current drawn-out multiple wars we are engaged in, then you couldn't be more wrong).

Still think you've got me figured out, TM? 

Copied from another post because it is just as relevant here:

And once again, TM7 is either out-right lying or is misrepresenting the truth.  According to http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/09inalcr.pdf in 2009, of the 235,413 taxpayers who earned $1 million or more in 2009, 1,470 of them paid no taxes (for the record, that is 0.6% of those making over $1 million).  That's a bit different than the "top 1400 earners in USA had zero AGI".   

Given that the economy all but collapsed during that time period, is it any wonder that some people who put their money at risk lost a bunch?  In fact, lost enough that it zeroed out their earnings from other areas. Because that is what AGI means, folks.  Don't let TM make you think it is some magical number that lets rich people skip paying their fair share of taxes.  It simply means income less deductions.  Not credits, deductions.  If you pay taxes you know what this means.  Take all of your income, subtract your personal allowances, deductions whether itemized or not, and that's your AGI.  It just so happens that deductions can be losses from investments, sale of property, etc.

(Oh, and one more thing, ever notice that TM never posts a link to any sources for his outlandish claims?  And if he does include a source, it is some fringe group website?  People, pay attention! Do your research, don't just let people spoon feed you lies!  Don't trust the claims made by others - heck, don't trust me - fact check me, make sure I'm not lying to you, make sure my sources aren't fabricated!)

Just a Shooter (who is tired of TM and others lies and fabrications)

[SHOOTALL]

Lets simplify things , people working pay taxes . People not working don't pay taxes . Rich people own companies that employ people to work so they can pay taxes. Want mo money put people back to work. There is one thing that should be pointed out , govt. workers . They don't pay enough taxes to cover their cost to govt. So it is nessary for non govt. workers to be working and paying taxes.
 Now why are we in debate about the rich ? BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH FOLKS ARE WORKING THUS PAYING TAXES AND THE GOVT ISN"T DOING ANYTHING TO GET THEM BACK TO WORK SO THEY MUST FIND A NEW SOURCE OF CASH FLOW . 

[mcwoodduck]

TM7,
I am not sure what you do for a living or what some of your friends and relitives do for a living but, are you for closing  all of the tax loop holes if it means that they will loose thier jobs as the tax loophole is what is keeping that business afloat in a tax funded incentive to purchase those items?  Do you realize your morguage and the taxes you pay on any property or that your land lord pays and you pay in your rent are tax loopholes for the federal government?  Are you willing to not have those loopholes?  Are you willing to have your rent increase if you just flipently said " Sure I don't pay the morguage so I do not get credit for the interest or pay the property taxes so sure close those loop holes.  Are you willing to pay more for food and fuel?  After all if we need to increase taxes then we need to increase them to continue to spend on programs that are not doing any good.  We have 50 Million about one in 7 people on food stamps!  Would it not be better to have them working and buying their own food? 
I guess the best question is, and the one that no Liberal will ever dare answer.  What total percentage of your income is too much for government to take?  Right now My total tax burden between Income, FICA, State, Local, and usage fees is 56%  Am I paying too much?  Should I pay more?  What should I give up so I can support others, rather than employ others?  Do I fire the gardener, the cleaning lady, the dry cleaner, The gun shop, the butcher, the mechanic, computer internet,... Who/ What goods and services do I cut, in order to give more to the government so they can take my money and support the people that were fired because the government took more from me?

[mcwoodduck]

I have a problem wiht your answer.
1) you never gave a maximum percentage that is too much for total taxes.  What percentage is too high for your total tax burden?
2) I want to cut taxes across the board not shift them from the "rich" to the middle class or the poor.  I want to create jobs that will raise incomes the allows more people to be middle class and paying taxes not add new taxes to the middle class or the poor.  The idea is to get more money in peoples hands so they can invest, spend, get out of debt.
3) we do need to cut spending and getting people off government programs is a good way.  If we create jobs we will not need to spend as much if more are working.
4) your term "the lucky ones" is pure class warfare!  To many you are one of the lucky ones.  Why can't we take or tax your wealth so you only have SS or take your SS and give it to others that need it?  Not paid in or worked for years contributing but need it, you clearly do not as you are one of the lucky ones and others are so much needier than you.
5) if some were born into a family that made a lot of money through hard work or wise investing, who cares.  Many families have gone from poor to wealthy and back again.  The facts of a free market and low taxes that promote innovation.  I can understand if you are jelous of people like the Kennedies who, some say was illegal and taxes were not paid on it, so if you want to start confiscationg the lucky sperm family money start there.  Then head to the owner of the NY Times.  If you look at someone like Paris Hilton and her family money and how she was a Millionaire just by being born.... Well a fool and her money are soon parted give it time and those Billions will be in the economy. 
I am all for a flat tax rate.  I have been since Steve Forbes suggested it in his campaign for President in the late 80's.  I have posted here and other places that a flat tax rate based on the poverty level that is progressive would be a fair tax.  I think the problem we would have is the percentages and the standard deduction of 4 or 5 times the povery level for the number of family members you have.  And then the percantage you should pay and at what levels.  I think we should have one form, one book and it should take you no longer than 20 Minutes and simple math to do your taxes.  having 28 forms and 5 books with conflicting information in our tax code is punitive.  Of course all the tax lawyers, CPA's, the Law schools, Congessional staff memebrs and the IRS agents we will not need anymore would disagree with your and my flat tax idea.

[SHOOTALL]

Tariffs on imported goods including services like ansewering the phone. We are in debt in part because we support other countries lets get some back.

[Gary G]

Tariffs on imported goods including services like ansewering the phone. We are in debt in part because we support other countries lets get some back.

Shootall, are you promoting tariffs?

Tariffs make those goods cost more to consumers. That leaves consumers with less money to spend on other things.
With other things in less demand, production must fall. This causes workers in general to loose their job. The economy is hurt. The money goes to government which always expands when more money is given to them. This too hurts the economy. More unemployment!

Remove the ball and chain from American producers (i.e. regulations and taxation). Freemarket economies can compete very well with centrally planned economies. Witness all those countries that have gone under (Russia, eastern Europe, etc). Unfortunately, we are the centrally planned economy and China is the more capitalistic one.

[SwampThing762]

TM7,

"Class warfare" is right.  Your liberal buddies, many of whom are moochers, have declared war on the people who have jobs, a little bit of wealth, and pay taxes.     

You say sales tax will hurt the poor because it is regressive.  You just don't want the moocher class to pay their "fair share", because they PAY NO TAXES!  Fair share.....there's that word again!

I tell you what.....you are more than welcome to give your wealth and income to the government and the moocher class.  However, they will neither thank you nor leave you be.  They will want more.   But, my money, my goods, and my wealth (such as it is) is mine!

ST762

[wareagleguy]

Here is a little fact for you guys to think about...
Notice the years during the depression and the years with recessions (with early 1990 being a biggie)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States