Close The Loopholes, Tax The Rich!

[sidewinder319]

More people are on food stamps than anytime in history. The left wing has taxed the investors out of the country. We have closed or foundrys and factorys. We buy from other nations with lower taxes on the wealthy who provide the jobs. You can kill the goose.

[wareagleguy]

Sidewinder,
Did you even look at my link?


Anyone telling you that the investors is taxed out of this country is a lie!  Taxes are at a all time low for the upper class!!!  Did you happen to see in the news that Warren Buffet paid less than 16 percent in taxes last year?  Hello?

[mcwoodduck]

Here is a little fact for you guys to think about...
Notice the years during the depression and the years with recessions (with early 1990 being a biggie)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

That is cool.  Thank you for posting it.  What has me is how much more is collected other than income tax, FICA, the telephone tax that was placed on the rich in 1899 to pay for the spanish american war and is still on every one of your phone bills 112 years later and Capital gains (profits).   
What I would like to see is two graphs showing tax increases and ressessions.  My guess is that all tax increases result in a ressession and the larger the tax increase the longer the ressession.  GHW Bush said read my lips, NO new taxes and the senate and house shoved one down his throat and over rode his veto.  We then had a ressession I thing ofr two reasons,  1 CNN said we would and have as many people saying ressession as possible.  2 it slowed the economy from the Reagon tax cuts.
We then had the Clinton tax increases that causesed the GW Bush ressession and the tax cuts and the terrorist attacks were not enough to bring us out of them.     

[DDZ]

How would making anyone, or any group pay more taxes really fix anything? Especially since history shows that it doesn't fix anything.
Maybe the despisement toward people with money has more to do with envy.

[SHOOTALL]

Tariffs on imported goods including services like ansewering the phone. We are in debt in part because we support other countries lets get some back.

Shootall, are you promoting tariffs?

Tariffs make those goods cost more to consumers. That leaves consumers with less money to spend on other things.
With other things in less demand, production must fall. This causes workers in general to loose their job. The economy is hurt. The money goes to government which always expands when more money is given to them. This too hurts the economy. More unemployment!

Remove the ball and chain from American producers (i.e. regulations and taxation). Freemarket economies can compete very well with centrally planned economies. Witness all those countries that have gone under (Russia, eastern Europe, etc). Unfortunately, we are the centrally planned economy and China is the more capitalistic one.

Quite honest yes. We American's pay taxes and some of the money pays for Americans to sit on their azzs because the jobs went off shore. So is it better to pay higher taxes or pay a little more for goods and services ? If the highest comsumer og goods in the world back out of the world market just a little it might force the rest of the world to re evaluate the flooding of goods on the American market. Maybe like the auto industry they will open factories here 

[SHOOTALL]

one loop hole that might be fixed is the Federal Govt subsidsing things the oil industry has to do anyway. I have heard it stated that if you add the tax money given to the oil industry and the loss tax income from the oil industry we really pay over $10.00 a gallon for reg. gas. So why are people who never own a car or drive paying this ?

[Dixie Dude]

What people aren't seeing is inflation.  As inflation goes up, people get paid more, they get into higher tax brackets.  Tax cut are necessary to get the average people back to their equivelant take home pay after inflation.  Yes the tax brackets for the rich were higher 20-40-60 years ago, but everyones pay was also way lower. 

[SHOOTALL]

We can buy less today with our income than in 1970 .

[guzzijohn]

If we are going to get debt under control we need revenue from any and every source and everything needs to be on the chopping block. Our new freshman congressman (R) Mike "Pompous" Pompeo wants to slash every social program in site yet he is unwilling to support any defense cuts, our biggest money wasting pit.
GuzziJohn

[Dixie Dude]

Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are larger than the Defence Department.  It once was that when the economy was bad, the military didn't have a problem filling their needs.  Today, young people don't want to join.  You have to pass a drug test to join today, and be a high school graduate.  This is a problem for the military.  I think you need to pass a drug test to get any federal assistance.  This would clean up the drug problem, save money, and probably cut crime. 

[mcwoodduck]

We can buy less today with our income than in 1970 .

.
I can buy more today with a ounce of gold than in 1970...TM7

I doubt that.  If you look at a loaf of bread, gallon of milk or the price of your standard car that ounce of gold does not go as far now as it did then.  Dad's 1969 buick station wagon was 2,500 NEW loaded a plain jane Suburban with equal equipment is 32,000. 

[SHOOTALL]

We can buy less today with our income than in 1970 .

.
I can buy more today with a ounce of gold than in 1970...TM7

I doubt that as gold only keeps up with inflation in most cases . Pay the tax for selling gold and it is a loss .

[mannyrock]

 
 
  Having read all of these posts, I have a few comments:
 
  1.   To the folks who believe that increasing the federal income tax on the rich is a solution, I have a simple question.  Suppose that the tax rate was increased somewhere between 1% and 5% on all people making above a million dollars.  Exactly how do you think that this would help in a real world way any of the current problems of the middle class or lower class? 
 
       A.  Is it your position that the government should just pass out the extra money to the poor?   Well, that's OK I guess, but that is the definition of Communism.  From each according to his means, and to each according to his needs.  That is what Lenon wrote.  It is pure wealth redistribution.  Move to China please.
 
      B.  Is it your position that the govenment should use the money to order up massive government construction projects and create jobs?  Well, that's OK I guess, but that is the definion of Socialism.  The government takes all it can from the upper class, and  redistributes it with State projects and State programs so that it levels out the society.  Move to England please.  (But you had better get your teeth fixed here first, as the socialized dentistry system in England gives them the worst dental care in the industrialized nations.)
 
   2.    Next, let me tell you something I learned about the rich and super rich.  I worked for 30 years as a corporate and business attorney at the law firm of Senator Howard Baker, about as conservative as you can get.  It was a 600 person firm, and I represented the rich and super rich, dealing with them every day.    And do you know what I found out?  The reason that these folks are rich and super rich is that they work their living butts off, 14 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week.  They work FAR more hours than any blue collar worker, tradesman, Union worker or anybody else.  And,  even more important, when they do transactions, create businesses, invent and develop products, they have to sign personal guarantees to the lenders for every loan, which means that they put their entire personal wealth and fortune on the line for everything they do.  Do the workers at GM do that when GM borrows money to create new jobs?  No. They don't.   So sorry, but this "holyier than thou" attitude of the "working class" is total cp*r.  Yes, I know that they work really hard, but they aren't holyier than, and they don't work as hard as, rich people.   
 
      The entire goal of rich people is to create new business, and assemble new capital ventures, to make new products, buildings and factories and create more income.  This ALWAYS creates new jobs.  The vast majority of rich people can't stay rich by just sitting back and doing nothing.  A decade of paying taxes and having their money eaten away by inflation, and dividing it up to their kids and grandkids, would totally destroy their wealth.
 
   And by the way, rich people are in a higher tax braket than most folks on this board, and they pay a ton more taxes every year than most of the folks on this board.  This "poor man's myth" that "the rich don't pay any taxes" is really pathetic.  Yes they do, in spades, and far more than poor people or the middle class.
 
   Now, on a personal note, I would not be opposed (and believe it or not most rich people would not be opposed) to increasing the upper tax brackets by a percentage point or two, BUT ONLY if it wasn't squandered into the great black hole of entitlements and bridges to nowhere by the federal government.
 
   3.   And finally, I would point out that the overwhelmingly vast majority of all donations to poor people, churches, and charities come from the top 5% or so of income earners, i.e., the rich people, . . . not the middle class.  Increase their taxes, and what do you think will be one of the first things they cut?
 
    Gates gave away BILLIONS to create the Gates Foundation.  Buffet gave away almost 50 Billion dollars (98% of his wealth) to the Gates Foundation.  This is the upside of the American dream, i.e., allowing people to work hard, and progess, and keep their money, rather than having higher and higher percentages of their money taken by the federal government.
 
   Take a look at the New York public library. One of the most beautiful public libraries on the planet.  Anyone can go in.   And where did it come from?   Around 1900, Carnegy and J.P. Morgan decided that New York should have a great library, and they built it with their own money!!
 
 
Mannyrock 
   

[Hooker]

Until we close the government tax and spend hole no other hole closing will matter.
You can't fill in the hole with a teaspoon while they are digging it out with a fleet of excavators

Pat

[SHOOTALL]

how about the fuel to put in them ? looking at one iten proves little. Food cost more ....

[mcwoodduck]

I see a problem with all these tax the rich posts that have been going on latley ad well as all the morons out saying please tax me more.
Clearly if Buffett, Loutenberg, Obama, and the others think they should pay more in taxes they A- Can and B- they would not take deductions on their returns and just fill out a plain old 1040 form and claim all their income as wages and not as capital gains (taxed lower than wages)  The would send back in any return and show it as an example.  but they do not.  They pay tax lawyers large sums to get evey nickel back as possible.  Some go as far as avoiding taxes, can any one say Sen John Kerry?  This hipocrital stupidity drives me nuts.
But the problem I have is why if we have a debt deal, if we know spending is out of control we are talking about taking from others?
Clearly if this were a family member who went nuts spending.  We helped them to get a deal worked out with the credit card company to extend their debt limit so they can meet their obligations for the year are we not letting them talk about knocking over a bank so they can spend more?   
We know as a matter of economic law, like the law of gravity, that as taxes increase, revinue to the government decreases.  Why if we are in deficit spending, and we have a ceiling would we want to cut revinue by trying to hold up one group, who as a whole will resist being robbed.

[sidewinder319]

Don't forget this nation was founded on too many taxes.  The Stamp Act, the Tea Taxes Etc. caused or founders to fight the most powerful nation on earth. Nothing has really changed. The loyalist to the Kings supported the tax on working Americans. Today those loyal to the elitist liberals support taxing the producing Americans.  They lost in 1776 and they will lose in 2012.

[mcwoodduck]

We been giving the rich tax breaks for eight years and that hasn,t made any more new jobs, thats just the Republican brain washing going on again, if you morons don't get with it and start taxing the income tax of the rich at the percent
that we are paying or we all will be working till we are 68 years old not at 65 right now! thats what your Republican
party is planning to do.

?  What ?  Facts and economic laws lare like the laws of physics or gravity.  No matter what the small minded think, you need to cut taxes to get out of a ression, you need to cut government spending.  While you leftinst all think that the Bush tax cuts did nothing, you are right.  My tax cut was not seen as my state increased taxes and fees across the board greater than my cut.  Many states stole the tax cut, and the effects as well as an attack on the county caused greater problems than the meager tax cut solved.  Go to a local college and take an Economics 101 class to get a basic understanding of costs, demand, and the effect of rules and regulations.  The brain washing has come from the left where they tell you lies.  Pelosi the other day said Starbucks plan to hire was not enough, she has companies, why is she not matching Starbucks plan?  Tripleing it if 70,000 jobs are not enough from one company?  Instead all the left does is say not enough we need more and YOU have to give, NOT US,  but YOU.
By the way if taxes we not so bad you would not have the titans of tax and spend commiting felonies to avoid them.  Can you say John Kerry an his yacht?  Why do Obama, Biden, Pelosi, and Reid, all Millionaires, take tax refunds, claim deductions, and transfer income to Capital gains (lower rates than income) if paying taxes is a good thing?  Every April we get a look at their tax returns and sha-zam all claim deductions, all use loopholes they created, all take huge refunds, all cash the checks.  Are you OK with hypocrites?  Do as I say, not as I do!  Is that OK with you?  On the same note if man made Global warming were real, Al gore would fly commercial.  He would only have one small house, he would not have a huge mansion, with an energy bill of over 5,000 a month.  Look at your leaders. 
As for having to work till you are 68 instead of 65, again look at the Democrats, for messing with SS and creating mess it is in now.  All changes to it were done under the Dems. 

[mannyrock]

 
Hi Andy,
 
    I fully understand how bad everyone feels about the current economy, but your statements are not currect.  Our federal income tax system is a progressive system, which means that the higher your gross  income, the higher a percentage of taxes you pay.  The rich are in a much higher personal income tax bracket than you are, and they pay a much higher percentage of their income in federal taxes than you do. 
 
   And, are you aware of the federal Alternative Minimum Tax  (the "AMT")?  There is a box to check on the second page of your federal tax return if you are subject to the AMT.  Take a look at your return for last year.  You will see the box.
 
    Basically, the Alternative Minimum Tax works like this.  First, the "rich" have to compute their income taxes in the ordinary way, including the higher tax bracket.  But, after that, they have to compute it a second way, which taxes all passive investment income at a higher rate.  After doing this, if the second tax computation (the Alternative Minimum Tax) is greater than the taxes computed in the ordinary way, then they have to pay the GREATER amount.
 
  Andy, I practiced corporate and estate tax planning for 30 years.  The rich pay tons of taxes, alot more than the average person.  The upper 5% of all income earners in the U.S. pay more than 50% of ALL of the federal income taxes collected by the federal government each year.
 
  And, the bottom half of America, which now amounts to 50% of all people, pay zero income taxes.  That's right, while you are busting your butt to pay those taxes, half of the adult population in America pays zip.  But again, that half is the bottom half, not the top half.
 
   Now, you may think that the tax rate on the upper income earners should be increased somewhat, but that is a different position than saying they don't pay any taxes. (Which is simply untrue.)  Personally, I tend to agree that a 1 or 2% increase in the rate on income over $500,000 should be enacted, only because the wealth gap in America is becoming so large. 
 
   However, Andy, you and I would never receive a single red cent of the increased taxes on the rich.  The entire history of the federal government is that they spend every penny that hits their hands, and then borrow an addition 25% (by selling treasury notes) to spend even more.
 
   And, if we become like England, which has virtually taxed the rich out of existence (a 55% income tax rate), then what happens?  No new investment money, no new business ventures, no new products and services, and no new jobs.  (Unless we think the federal government, as a socialist government, will step in to take their place.)
 
  I wonder what Washington and Jefferson would have said if we had told them, "And oh yeh, by the way, after you guys win the Revolution, then the new government that is being set up will confiscate 50% of all of the income of anybody they classify as rich, each and every year.  And if you're not rich, they'll take 20 to 30% of it." ?
 
  Best to you,
 
Mannyrock
   

[nomosendero]

Mannyrock, good post!

[Empty Quiver]

 
We know as a matter of economic law, like the law of gravity, that as taxes increase, revinue to the government decreases.  Why if we are in deficit spending, and we have a ceiling would we want to cut revinue by trying to hold up one group, who as a whole will resist being robbed.

I find it interesting that when the government wants to dissuade the people from doing something they tax it, cigarettes for instance. I do believe Dear Leader has long stated that gasoline should be taxed to $5 to force people to drive less. Then when they need (oop's) WANT cash and raise taxes on some segment of the economy, they can not make the mental leap that they are killing the revenue source.

[mcwoodduck]

 
We know as a matter of economic law, like the law of gravity, that as taxes increase, revinue to the government decreases.  Why if we are in deficit spending, and we have a ceiling would we want to cut revinue by trying to hold up one group, who as a whole will resist being robbed.

I find it interesting that when the government wants to dissuade the people from doing something they tax it, cigarettes for instance. I do believe Dear Leader has long stated that gasoline should be taxed to $5 to force people to drive less. Then when they need (oop's) WANT cash and raise taxes on some segment of the economy, they can not make the mental leap that they are killing the revenue source.

The left has a mental break down and a single mindedness, "tax the Rich" is a montra, not a result.

[andy1300]

Mannyrock, I've been doing my own taxes for the last five years , being my house is paid for I do the EZ form.
If you look the people making $18,000 a year is paying at a high percent rate then me in the mid, and someone
at $90,000 + will be paying at a lower percent then me.
being someone like my brother that makes less then me, has less money for gas and food shouldn,t have to pay at
a higher percent rate, then the rich they have the money to go out to eat already.
And I do know for fact that it is on the table if we don't start closing these loop holes on the rich, we the blue
collar workers will not be able to retire at 65 years old.

[mcwoodduck]

Mannyrock, I've been doing my own taxes for the last five years , being my house is paid for I do the EZ form.
If you look the people making $18,000 a year is paying at a high percent rate then me in the mid, and someone
at $90,000 + will be paying at a lower percent then me.
being someone like my brother that makes less then me, has less money for gas and food shouldn,t have to pay at
a higher percent rate, then the rich they have the money to go out to eat already.
And I do know for fact that it is on the table if we don't start closing these loop holes on the rich, we the blue
collar workers will not be able to retire at 65 years old.

Andy 1300,
So if we tax Warren Buffett 90% of everything he makes over 200,000 a year?  How is that going to make gasoline more affordable?  Do you think that will stop Warren from going out to dinner or having a private chef.  How is that going to help you?  Do you feel better knowing he has to eat standard steak rather than Prime?  Why should anyone have to pay for you?  Are you not a grown up?  Should you not be adult enough to provide for your self?
When I was growing up, some of my friends from school their fathers made Millions a year.  I asked what they did, what degrees they had, what frat they joined, what gave them the inside track to the top.  All of them said the same thing.  The degree ment nothing, the frat did not matter, one father grew up over a grocery store in Ga and never went to college.  Hard work, No if ands or butts about it.  You know the kids that are up at 4am practicing their sport before school, after school, and read about the sport?  These are the same guys, they want to know everything, I mean everything about their business.  The guys that manage property know heating systems, cooling systems, structural engineering, carpentry, and all the trades that make and keep a building.  While they hire people to do the work they know how and why the system works and what should be needed and how long it should take to repair or install a the system.  Most people only want to punch a clock.  7am to 4:30 pm and at 4:30 and 1/2 a second forget about their jobs.  But back to the kid that does everything to get better at a sport.  Do we discount his acheivements?  Average out his goals, baskets, home runs?  Do we give the bench warmers a couple of his goals?  Sorry if you are a second string player, sorry of your brother is a bench warmer.  But your inability your lack of not wanting to put in the work should not get you more than someone that is willing,  Someone that is willing to put up money to hire a clock puncher to make their product.  In a factory they used their money to build.  If the product does not sell, they are going to loose the factory, the wages they paid you, and all the inventory.  Risks get rewards and those risks as 40% fail for one reason or another get taxed at a different lower rate because they are risking more. 

[billy_56081]

Parasitic thieves! Steal from someone else to make your life easier, discusting! Same class as tape worms and lice.

[mannyrock]

 
Andy,
 
    I apologize for telliing you that what you are saying is just totally false.  The tax rates INCREASE as gross income goes up, not DECREASE.
 
   What tax code are looking at?  Go to the IRS website, or consult that IRS paper instruction manual for preparing the 1040 (U.S. federal income tax return) and you will see.
 
   Andy, if you are using the 1040 EZ form, then you are doing a super short form and not consulting the tax computation charts.  Please take a look at the percentage rates set forth in the book in the tax tables.  The rates INCREASE.
 
  Andy, I am stunned when I hear comments like yours. People who only make $18,000 a year are paying very little federal income tax, because first they get a standard deduction of $5,700 per household (more if they itemize), and then they get a personal exemption of $3,650 for each adult and minor in the household.  Only the amount left over after subtracting these is taxed, and it is taxed in the lowest tax bracket (i.e., at the lowest possible rate.)
 
  As the income goes up (for wealthier people) these exemptions do not go up.  And, what is left over is taxed in the higher tax brackets (currently up to about 42%). Moreover, after their gross income exceeds around $120,000, they start LOOSING their itemized deductions.  (They are scaled down and reduced).
 
   Andy, believe me, NOBODY making $18,000 per year is paying 38% of their taxable income to the federal government in federal income taxes.  If they are, then they are preparing their tax returns incorrectly and they need to go see an accountant.
 
  My credentials:  Bachelors in Business from Duke University, 1976, and law degree in business law from the University of Virginia, 1979.  I have prepared individual and corporate returns for over 30 years.
 
  Andy, are you confusing the federal income tax  with the Social Security Tax?  The social security tax rate is about 15% on all income earned if you are self employed.  If you are not, then your company pays half of the tax, and the other half is withheld from your paycheck.
 
   The social security tax only applies to earned income, it does not apply to other types of income, such as capital gains, dividends, interest etc.
 
Regards, Mannyrock
 
Best, Mannyrock
   
 
   

[mannyrock]

 
TM7,
 
    You make some good points.  However, where do you get your information that most of the income of the upper class comes from capital gains?.  Capital gains can only occur if you sell a capital asset that has been held for at least one year.  (Example, a piece of land, a share of stock, etc.)  Yes, they do have capital gains, but it is not most of their income.
 
   Many people agree that the 15% rate on capital gains is too low.  I agree as well.  It should go to 20%.
 
    Bear in mind, though, that the capital gains rate is not something special for only the rich.  ANYBODY, rich or poor, who sells a capital asset held for at least a year gets the capital gains rate.
 
  And I also agree with you on a couple of other things.  The federal gasoline tax is so high that its is an outrage.  And, poor people have to pay it on every gallon of gas they buy.  I think that if a person has adjusted gross income on his last years tax return of $18,000 or less, he should be given a special card by the feds to reflect this, and he should be exempt from paying the gasoline tax.  He should also get a 100% tax deduction for  premiums he has to pay for health insurance.
 
  Thanks for your posts.
 
Mannyrock
 
 
 
 

[andy1300]

Thanks Mannyrock, I can only go by my EZ form tax books, yes we do get the same standard deduction after that is
your income tax , if you look at what a person that has a 18,000 after standard deduction what you do own is at
7.5 percent and if you make more the percent does drop, sure you own more money but it is at a lower percent
rate. I know you do the taxes of the big companys but hey theres alot of us little guys that that do the EZ form
and is what going on , If you have a EZ tax book take a look.    Andy

[mcwoodduck]

Thanks Mannyrock, I can only go by my EZ form tax books, yes we do get the same standard deduction after that is
your income tax , if you look at what a person that has a 18,000 after standard deduction what you do own is at
7.5 percent and if you make more the percent does drop, sure you own more money but it is at a lower percent
rate. I know you do the taxes of the big companys but hey theres alot of us little guys that that do the EZ form
and is what going on , If you have a EZ tax book take a look.    Andy

With the progeressive tax, everone pays the same for the fists X dollars, then above that they pay more to the next level, and on till you hit the top marginal rate based on how much you make.  If instead of looking at the tax tables for an amount you actually did the math you would see that x dollars are done at one level and anything above that level is done at higher levels.  Someone making 2X does not get taxed for the full amount at the higher level.  The federal income tax does not take into account geography.  Making 50K a year in NYC due to the higher costs of property and transportation does not give you the same as 50K in a farm community where land is cheaper, where building costs are lower, where transportation is lower.  Andy clearly you are bitter for the choices you have made in your life and resent others, rather than are mad at your self for those poor or misguided choices.  Bitter little people try to find scape goats for their short comings.  The Dmocrat leadership is great at dividing the nation and pitting one group against another group.  old vs. young, black vs white, legals vs. illegals, rich vs. poor.  In stead if we looked at the problem and how to elevate everyone rather than gain power by blame we as a nation would be unstopable. 
 
My question to you is still, if we take all the money from all the rich, how is that going to help you?  Will you make or be able to keep more of your income if more of their income is taken from them or if they make less? If no one can afford luxury items, what will happen to the people making those items? Supply of items and the demand for them is what causes production, innovation, and new items to meet new demands.  Profits are what drives people to make those items available.  The rich wanting those items usually bare the development costs of those new products that make those same items cheaper for others.  Cars, TV, Computers, Travel, firearms, Cell phones, housing, and medicine are just a few items that the rich have made affordable for everyone.   

[sidewinder319]

We have half the country claiming they are poor.  This number grows each year.  They the poor expects the other half to care for them. The poor has to have their children fed 3 meals a day at school and expects all kinds of aid. When does this end?  The poor then attacks the hand that feeds them. They are againsit capital gains persons working more and making more income. When will we require the poor to state each year what they are doing to improve their own lives and those of their families??Tax the rich?  We could lower the debt if  poor people worked to gain more income and share the burden with those who pay taxes. LBJ started the war on poverty almost 50 years ago.  Poverty has won and broke the country. People who feed at the public trove need to understand they owe society for the relief they receive.