Author Topic: WARNING to rv users. (Read 1113 times)

powderman · « **on:** August 09, 2011, 04:03:27 PM »

Sunday my good friend and neighbor went over to a friends house to work on his rv. The owner connected the power to it while Tommy was underneath. Evidently it was not grounded properly. When Tommy touched the flywheel he was the ground, he was electrocuted. Just got back from the funeral home, funeral tomorrow. He was 50 yrs old. POWDERMAN.

mechanic · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2011, 04:51:24 PM »

Too sad. One of the cheapest safety devices out there today is a GFI outlet. I hope they become more common as they will prevent this sort of thing.

Ben

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2011, 05:21:14 PM »

Geeez!

Try to help someone. My condolences to the family, and you.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #3 on:** August 09, 2011, 06:20:46 PM »

The same thing happened to my brother when we were kids. It was a wet morning. He grabbed the bumper of the camper and looked like he was getting a shock. Every body was laughing at him. They thought he was joking. Fortunately I pulled the plug on the extension cord that was connected to the camper. He was OK.

Sorry your friend was not so lucky.

powderman · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2011, 03:21:27 AM »

I don't understand how the grounding process works on an rv but for those of you who use them please have it checked out. Still hard to believe. POWDERMAN.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2011, 03:40:12 AM »

Sorry for your friend .
The GFIC is a great safety but if you can go to Lowes or such you will find a tester to check GFIC cir and other circuits . It looks like a yellow male plug with 3 lights on either the end or side depending on brand. It allowes the user to see if GFIC is working and also if there are any open grounds in the circuit. Also tell if polarity is reversed I think ( don't have one in hand) .
Any RV that moves is subject to vibration which is hard on wireing and any repairs to elec. system can create a problem is not proper .

lakota · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2011, 06:22:27 AM »

I am sorry to hear of the loss of your friend.

no guns here · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2011, 11:36:58 AM »

Since I don't understand crap about how electricity and grounding really works... how do you prevent this from happening in the future. I know you can install that GFI plug but I don't understand how it works. What if I plug into to an ungrounded outlet somewhere else? Do I need some sort of chain or wire hanging down to the ground? My storage shed has a 5 foot long copper rod driven into the ground next to it. Do I need one of these everywhere I go?

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2011, 12:08:42 PM »

when you have a 3 wire outlet you have a hot , netural and ground. Some older outlets have no ground only 2 wires . You can install a GFIC on a 2 wire outlet but you still don't have an equipment ground and the outlet should be labled so. This is an open ground . Also if there is no house ground ( no ground rod ) you have an open ground. What I see as a plumber is in some cases a water heater will have a tank failure and it is blamed on acid content in the water when it is caused by an open ground. If the RV is connected to an outlet with no ground open ground it might be possible to to get shocked .

mechanic · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2011, 12:31:22 PM »

A GFI will work even without an equipment ground. If the hot wire becomes grounded, the outlet trips. Still not a replacement for a properly grounded outlet, but better than nothing.

Everyone be careful out there. Too many are injured by something we take for granted....

Ben

BUGEYE · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2011, 12:36:39 PM »

I would mount a GFI in a 2"x4" box with a pigtail to plug in at campgrounds etc.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2011, 03:07:00 AM »

Quote from: mechanic on August 10, 2011, 12:31:22 PM

A GFI will work even without an equipment ground. If the hot wire becomes grounded, the outlet trips. Still not a replacement for a properly grounded outlet, but better than nothing.

Everyone be careful out there. Too many are injured by something we take for granted....

Ben

not sure on 240 V ?

no guns here · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2011, 05:47:01 AM »

How are vehicles "grounded". They are setting up on rubber tires with nothing else touching the ground or am I missing the meaning of the word "ground".

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2011, 07:44:15 AM »

I would guess to the frame . I would also guess a true ground to earth is through the ground wire comming from the service connection from the elec supply at a camp site etc. RVs have both high voltage AC and low voltage DC . If no earth ground was supplied from the service connection and in some cases if someone touched the frame and ground at the same time it might be a problem. I would think some other problem would exist at the same time . I know with generators either we have to ground them to earth or use a GFIC in line to our tools. Remember back when all the new appliances came out with three prong plugs and many homes had 2 prong recp. and the correct way to connect was an adapter with a ground to be connected to an added ground . If this was not done the appliance frame and metal parts were not grounded and in certian situations could shock you if touched. Now we have double insulated tools with 2 prong plugs we plug into 3 prong rec. But you cannot touch any metal parts.

no guns here · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2011, 09:43:35 AM »

so a car is grounded to the frame? But the "ground" doesn't go to the ground (dirt). I've always wondered about this but didn't want to appear stupid, now I'm old enough to not mind appearing stupid if I'm trying to learn something. Someone educate me on all this...

Yep I remember the 3 prong to 2 prong adapters. They had a little metal loop on the adapter that you were supposed to attach to the screw that held the plate in the wall. Was that for a "ground"? I thought is was supposed to hold the adapter in the wall socket so it wouldn't pull out when you yanked the cord on the vacuum from across the room...

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2011, 10:17:39 AM »

Some had a green wire comming off also. The car not a camper is a 12 volt system and in most cases is negative ground , some are positive ground as are some tractors.
With campers and such it is AC for part of the system and DC for part. At some point the incomming AC is converted to DC . I won't pretend to know how all the camper companies do their wireing but if not done correctly or repaired correctly it can lead to a problem. Add the bouncing and vibration the wireing sees going down the road and it is easy to see how a wire could be worn or damaged. A wild guess is at some point positive of the AC system got in contact with a ground or the frame from the DC system. Note the on 110 v lighting and rec circuits tie together in most older pannel boxes and both go to earth . And the person on the ground touched the frame and completed a circuit he became the path of least resistance .

no guns here · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:08:55 AM »

I told ya' and told ya'... I'm electrically stupid. What is negative ground? What is positive ground? I sort of understand the "it's ungrounded" so don't touch the frame part. NOW I'm sort of scared to do ANY work on any vehicle. Crap, anything could be ungrounded and I could die just changing my oil...

NGH

BUGEYE · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:22:04 AM »

Quote from: no guns here on August 11, 2011, 11:08:55 AM

I told ya' and told ya'... I'm electrically stupid. What is negative ground? What is positive ground? I sort of understand the "it's ungrounded" so don't touch the frame part. NOW I'm sort of scared to do ANY work on any vehicle. Crap, anything could be ungrounded and I could die just changing my oil...

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:27:40 AM »

On a vehicle you have a battry with a positive post and a negative post. If the negative post is attached to the frame with a wire then it is negative ground. If however the positive post is attached to the frame it is considered positive ground. On most vehicles one side of what ever is being powered is connected to the frame or other metal conected to the frame. When a trl is hooked up the hitch grounds the trl to the vehicle frame to create a circuit . The other side is wire going back to bat ( a alternator or gen is involved but to stay simple lets say battry) with fuses to protect the circuits. I always suggest if a new circuit for say a CB radio is taken off the battry or provided attachment point a fuse should be in both negative and positive wires , just a extra safety .

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:41:46 AM »

If his friend was working on the RV flywheel and the current was "plugged up" as he said, it was probably 110 AC current that was shorting out to the frame. While his friend was under the RV working on the flywheel, probably lying on the ground, when he touched the flywheel, he grounded the circuit through his body. He could have been hot, sweaty, and much easier to ground out.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:46:35 AM »

That was my wild guess also , I would guess something else may have been involved like a bad connection or maybe an appliance turnned on and voltage passed thru. it as it was energized.

mechanic · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2011, 12:54:01 PM »

Quote from: no guns here on August 11, 2011, 11:08:55 AM

I told ya' and told ya'... I'm electrically stupid. What is negative ground? What is positive ground? I sort of understand the "it's ungrounded" so don't touch the frame part. NOW I'm sort of scared to do ANY work on any vehicle. Crap, anything could be ungrounded and I could die just changing my oil...

NGH

We are talking a completely different thing with DC voltage, from a car battery. The worse you could get with that is a burn if you touch positive to negative, or a tingle if you get across a circuit with sweaty hands.

With AC current, somewhere a large generator is turning and producing electricity in little bursts as the generator turns. In America, you get approximately 60 bursts per second. This flow of electricity makes it to your house where it is transformered from thousands of volts, down to 240v. A 240 volt circuit consists of two 120 volt circuits, and a "neutral". All circuits must make a complete circle, so neutral is how you do that. Mother earth becomes part of that circle. Hence, this is referred to as ground. In order to be sure you get a good ground, a copper rod is driven into the earth near the electrical meter, and neutral is connected to that. In poor earth, rods are tied together and buried in a ditch, sometimes many feet long to improve the "ground". If a positive wire touches directly to a neutral or ground, a circuit breaker or fuse is supposed to interrupt that circuit. If a positive wire touchs the human body, and that body is touching the ground, the human then conducts the full force of that electricity. 10 millionths of a volt passing directly through the heart can stop the heart. A auto circuit does not have enough voltage to cause that, but house current can. A GFI, or Ground Fault interrupter, is designed to see a ground fault, such as a hair dryer dropped into the tub and interrupt the circuit.

If a ground or neutral is missing, ie. broken wire, the ground fault will interrupt.

Maybe this answers questions and doesn't overcomplicate. There are many variables to these basics.

Ben

Quote from: SHOOTALL on August 11, 2011, 03:07:00 AM

Quote from: mechanic on August 10, 2011, 12:31:22 PM
A GFI will work even without an equipment ground. If the hot wire becomes grounded, the outlet trips. Still not a replacement for a properly grounded outlet, but better than nothing.

Everyone be careful out there. Too many are injured by something we take for granted....

not sure on 240 V ?

For 240v you have to have a GFI breaker, not as inexpensive, but still worth the cost if it saves a life.....

briarpatch · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2011, 01:51:33 PM »

No -guns- here, The car has a 12 volt system that wont kill you.
If you use a drop cord while working on the car, that changes things as far as what you introduce to the situation.
Because the car does not have a continuous ground all the way back to the service panel you could cut into the drop cord, through the hot wire insulation on a sharp point on your car and with this touching the frame of the car you now have a hot car.
Should you touch the car you could now become the path back to ground. Which could be bad. Be careful with any outdoor drop cords. Make sure they are in good shape.
What appears to be the problem with the RV is the continuous ground has been compromised. From either the RV, home or both.
When the RV was plugged into a recpt. the ground should have been continuous from the service panel from which the recpt was located to the frame of the vehicle, and all metal parts of the vehicle should have been bonded to each other.
If a fault occurs that would open the breaker and make the situation safe.
As shootall said, a lot of things can happen in a big moving unit like an RV and unfortunately it is not something you can see most times. Also people tend to work on the systems of their homes and either dont understand what to do to keep it safe or dont take the time.
I do have a small shirt pocket style tester I can hold up to the RV or car and it would tell me if it were energized but most people don't carry one.

A ground rod has nothing to do with personnel protection.

Lost Farmboy · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2011, 03:05:08 PM »

A car is grounded through the frame. The ground or DC Neg (-) battery terminal is connected to the frame. The positive current seeks to go back to the battery's negative terminal through the frame.

AC current produced at a power plant is grounded to the earth. AC current always seeks a path to the earth. If you get into the way it will go to the earth though you.

A camper is grounded through the power cord attached to an AC outlet using the AC outlets ground.

I never saw a RV up close but suspect they have both. AC is dangerous, Thomas Edison invented the electric chair using AC to discourage the use of AC current. If working on an RV it would be a good idea to not have the AC system plugged into an AC outlet.

no guns here · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2011, 03:45:32 AM »

So DC isn't dangerous? I laid a socket wrench on top of my battery one time and then bumped it and it hit both terminals... blew a chunk out of the handle of my wrench. Hard to believe that much electricity won't hurt me but I'll go along with it...

One guy said that one 10 millionth of a volt could stop your heart... a car has 12 volt system. That's billions of times the power but you guys say it's safe... I'm corn-fused here.

I understand the part about the drop cord though... thank goodness that part made sense to me.

I think I understand the ground rod part... I have one that needs to be pounded into the ground and connected to my shed to ground it. I remember at one base they dug a trench down one side of my building and put in a bunch of copper wire bundles and connected them as a ground or lightning rod of some kind... I sorta got that.

I DON"T understand a vehicle NOT connected to "shore" power and how it is "grounded". NOTHING but rubber touches the earth. So according to what I am picking up here, basically that kind of "ground" is just completing a circuit and not grounding to earth. I know that my trailer lights don't work right or at all if the hitch isn't connected. I spent a whole day running new wire on my flatbed just to have a neighbor show me to hook up the trailer and then the lights worked right. God was that embarassing... Learned something that day... Don't test trailer lights without hitching up.
Thank goodness you guys are patient with me.

I'm pretty good with most things but the whole "electricity is like a river of water" analogy is lost on me. Volts, amps, watts, ohms etc are pretty damn confusing. If I remember correctly watts divided by volts equals amps and that is how I pick the right converter for using 110 stuff in Europe on 220 power.

Don't understand crap about what the actual difference in watts, volts and amps is... ohms is resistance but somehow when you add more speakers into a stereo system system the resistance goes down... corn-fused again...

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** August 12, 2011, 03:54:15 AM »

amps is what kills you . And yes DC can hurt you in certian situations but mostly you hurt yourself reacting to the shock. DC travles in one direction , why its called direct current . AC reverses direction 120 times per second on a 60 cycle circuit. AC tends to grab you .

magooch · « **Reply #26 on:** August 12, 2011, 05:41:10 AM »

A 12 volt DC system may not be able to shock you very badly, but it can burn the crap out of you under the right (wrong) circumstances. Never wear a metal ring, metal banded wrist watch, or chain around your neck when you're working on a vehicle, or anything else with a 12 volt system. Also, for anyone who monkeys around with the ignition systems on any of the rigs since the sixties, you don't want to get bit by the secondary (spark plug, or coil wire). The older systems were producing around 20,000 volts, which would give you a nice little jolt; the capacitor discharge systems etc. can produce in excess of 100,000 volts. You don't want to get hit by that many volts--no matter what the amperage.

powderman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 12, 2011, 08:20:08 AM »

Quote from: Dixie Dude on August 11, 2011, 11:41:46 AM

If his friend was working on the RV flywheel and the current was "plugged up" as he said, it was probably 110 AC current that was shorting out to the frame. While his friend was under the RV working on the flywheel, probably lying on the ground, when he touched the flywheel, he grounded the circuit through his body. He could have been hot, sweaty, and much easier to ground out.

DIXIE DUDE. Yes, he was under it. His brother said that his clothes were all wet, from what I don't know. He said that his clothes were cooked on him, whatever he meant by that. I'll find out more after things calm down a bit. Good friends are hard to find. POWDERMAN.

Tommyt · « **Reply #28 on:** August 12, 2011, 12:53:13 PM »

First off
Sorry for the Loss,God Bless him and all related

I was told that with 110 ac many times the shock you get
will or will not Kill
Depending on where you heart was/is
Years back on the job a guy got pinned between metal studs
he truly was froze between them due too a Screw gun and cord
open a bit and had made the metal studs HOT
He lived when he got out of the hospital he told us the said
that his heart was in the ? open or closed position and had it been
it the other when he got pinned he would not be telling the story
Is this true ? I don't know? The guy did get stuck to the metal studs
and Live,that I do know

Tommyt

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2011, 02:24:36 AM »

Any AC voltage can kill you . It depends on the path the elec takes thru. your body. If your feet are grounded and your head comes incontact with an energized wire the elec will travel thru. your body . If your elbow is grounded and you touch an energized wire toth your finger it travles thru. your arm and hand. I worked in the elec field for abot 4 years and still do on a limited basis as related to Plumbing and HVAC. One old timmer I worked with would check pannels to see if both hot legs were energized. This illistrates what I was saying and how people get shocked, He would place his thumb on the ground , then place his middle and fore finger on the hot lugs on the entry cable. He could feel current thru his fingers . He would remove his fingers from the hot lugs then his thumb from the ground. Had he removed his thumb first he would have been killed or burned. I have seen him do it on pannels up to 600 volts. I WOULD ADVISE NEVER EVER DO THIS AS IT IS A BAD PRATICE . And no I have never tried it and do not plan to.