abortion

[45-70.gov]

It is not surprising to me that so many of you use biblical reasoning for your opposition to abortion, indeed that makes perfect sense.  That many of you use your religious beliefs and teachings to arrive at a personal decision that abortion is ethically wrong is, however, precisely the point. 
 
I respect what each of you is saying.  I respect that you have the right to look at science, faith, and conscious, and arrive at your own decision.  My concern is that you don't show that same respect of others. 
 
To me the logic of Roe v. Wade is flawed in that it was decided in the line of cases dealing with personal privacy.  It should have been decided as an issue of freedom of religion.  Indeed one of the core parts of faith is the idea of soul and when life begins.  As a country that claims we do not establish religion, it has always seemed to me that being anti-choice is un-Constitutional.  Individuals can be pro-life in the sense that they believe abortion is wrong and would advocate against it, but not be anti-choice in that they would legally require that their beliefs be the only ones allowed in this country.
 
In short, I respect your opinion about when life begins, what constitutes murder, and how you arrive at the belief.  Indeed, I may even share it.  But I also respect the rights of those who do not agree, have different faith, or for whatever reason make a decision contrary to what I would.

very well  put


i not  only respect  the opinions  here
i also  agree with  most
but do not wish to impose  MY will on  others
nor should anyone  impose THEIR INTERPRETATION   of gods  will


what about a rape???.....you going to FORCE her to carry  that  baby
                                       you  going to  force her  to go to court  and  BEG
what  about  a severe  retartdation??......are  YOU  willing to adopt that child
                                                                 will you  force  me to support that child through taxes


thankfully  i am  a man and will NEVER be forced to make these decisions
                                       and  i can  pee behind a tree


all the  posters  here  are  men that will NEVER truely be faced with this decision
and  even  if a woman  were to post  here..
.she shouldn't use the force of government to impose her will on another

[Swampman]

Then why offer forgivness and salvation ?

To atone for the sins of the elect.
 
Read Romans 8 & 9.
 
I don't question God, I just believe what he says.

[SHOOTALL]

We read that very different .

[Dixie Dude]

Swampy, from Gods eternal view.  He transends time.  He knows the past, present, and future.  We don't.  He gave us choices, we read His word, and determine what He would want us to do, how to live, what to be like.  We have to preach to Gospel, love others, teach the truth, and try to convince others to live rightous lives.  We are the salt of the earth.  We can't make people change.  From your perspective, you don't have to do anything, because you believe what will be, will be.  You can't change others, you don't even have to witness to others.  From our perspective, we don't know anything about the future, so we have to witness, preach, love, and convince others of the truth.  One truth being abortion is murder.  Therefore we need to protect the unborn.  Now, if you are not salt, the evil in the world will take over.  Is that what God wants us to do, nothing?  That is why we have laws, and why we can change laws to reflect christian values.  We must respect others, but we can disagree, and try to convince them of the truth.  I can be friends with those I disagree with, as long as it doesn't conflict with my core beliefs.  America was the first unique country in the world, and it was based on christian values and principles, that is one reason why I think abortion should be a states rights issue.  I believe the federal government should only be there to regulate interstate trade, provide for the common defence.  It has grown too large and too meddlesome in peoples affairs.  This is the same with gay marriage, etc.  Feds should stay out of peoples business, let it be a states rights issue, not a federal one. 

[Swampman]

So God knows everything about everything, but we can change it?
 
Not much of a God.

[SHOOTALL]

So in your opinion if God does not do what you think he should he is not God ?If that is so it truely must be the height of arrogance.

[Swampman]

The height of arrogance is believing that man has a choice.
 
God does what he wants.  We don't even have the right to question his fairness.
 
He'll wipe out an entire nation to ensure 2 people meet and have a child so that his program will stay on course.  No child can be aborted unless God wants them to be aborted.

[SHOOTALL]

We disagree , I can live with that.

[Dixie Dude]

Point is you are acting like God knows, so whatever happens, happens, and we can't change anything.  So we should just drift through life doing nothing.  God does know, but you are not God.  You and I are human, we do not know the future unless God reveals it to us.  He has in general, but not in detail.  So we must work, witness, pray, change things for the better, etc.  Predestination is true from God's perspective, BUT WE DON'T KNOW, so we do the good works.  Can't be fatalistic. 

[Swampman]

I'm not fatalistic.  Everything we do, God knew we would do.  Nothing can change that.  Like Jesus, I only pray that God's will be done....period.

[SHOOTALL]

So why offer being saved ?

[SHOOTALL]

why offer the narrow road and the path to hell ?

[Dee]

The button pushing has started back up, and shuuuuuuuu. It's workin.

[Swampman]

So why offer being saved ?

Only the elect can be "saved" if there even is such a thing.  Jesus died for the sins of those who were predestined to salvation before the begining of time.  Only the elect will find the strait gate.  The non-elect cannot.  I didn't write the Bible, I'm just telling you what it says.  In the 18th century, every church in America taught this and every Christian believed it.  Sadly, most have wandered away from the scripture.
http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson1.htm
 

[powderman]

Pro choice always means death for a child. There are only 2 choices. Life or death, there is no inbetween. If I beleved like swampman then I'd have no reason to witness to people, go to Church, or pray, no point to it. I could turn to crime, murderer, rapist, bank robber, even terrorist, so what?? I guess God made baby butcher shops?? Nope, don't  believe that at all. God allows these things, just as he allowed satan to vex Job, and allowed Jesus to be tortured and crucified for OUR sins.  POWDERMAN. 

[Dee]

Swampy I doubt is as bad as you might think powder. He has been pushin buttons on folks for years. He likes the attention, and if you'll just try to save him, and lead him to the light, he can go back and forth for hours, if you stay on the hook. His, is an mo used time after time, but he can be entertaining. If you pay attention, in a week or two, he'll have his saddle on a horse from a completely different herd, riddin in a slightly different direction, with a whole new posse chasin him.

[ironglow]

The height of arrogance is believing that man has a choice.
 
God does what he wants.  We don't even have the right to question his fairness.
 
He'll wipe out an entire nation to ensure 2 people meet and have a child so that his program will stay on course.  No child can be aborted unless God wants them to be aborted.

************************************************************************
  Swampy;
        Interesting thought process;
        So God has already decided each and every detail..we have NO CHOICE in trhe matter. If we are to end up in heaven, it is not for devotion to God or any observance of his word..or any special loyalty to him. We need not worry about all those proverbs, commandments and illustrations..EVERYTHING IS PRE-ORDAINED AND ALREADY DECIDED AND SETTLED.
    In that case Swampy, why study, worship, be concerned with the teachings of His word or try to bring others to the knowledge of Him ?  Since all is pre-ordained and settled as if in stone, why even study his Bible ?
   You can't change a thing..your destination is 'graven in stone', if your children are not among the "elect"  they are bound to hell, regardless of what they may do, so... Why not just kick back, relax and let things go.."que sera, sera" (whatever will be, will be)?
 
    If ultimate outcome is already completely decided...then we are about on par with a snail, butterfly or field mouse..

[Dee]

Well, I give up. The political issues forum has turned into the new Bible Study forum.

[Swampman]

Roman 9:14-23.  I didn't write it.

[Cabin4]

Abortion or Bible Study??

[ironglow]

Roman 9:14-23.  I didn't write it.

*********************************************************************************
  Swampy;
  The Freewill vs predestination debate could continue endlessly, so I will simply post this explanation for anyone who truly wants an explanation...
 
  http://www.freewill-predestination.com/freewill.html

   ..And a commentary on your selected (Romans ch 9)
  http://www.freewill-predestination.com/romans9.html
   
   ..So I'll just leave it there...

[briarpatch]

Well, I give up. The political issues forum has turned into the new Bible Study forum.

Would not the world be a better place?

[Dee]

Abortion or Bible Study??

Bible Study until it gets locked. Swampy has gotten goin, and he or his opponents will give up until then. The topic has been abandoned in favor of Swampy's button pushin.

[SHOOTALL]

Well with reguard to the OP and disreguard to swampman ( his argurement is about Gods ablitys not what the OP ask) it is an attempt to change values and a Bible study may offer support for moral behavior. But the passage best supporting the moral high ground has been posted . But then Duck added a very good point as to the rights of the baby with out Bible help , though the laws that support his position came from the Bible. IMHO wheather you believe in God or not killing a baby is wrong in most cases. To stop an epidemic might be a case or such. Or if to save the mother and the mother has the best chance to survive. But to kill for convience is just plain wrong. The law should be to protect life not a lifestyle.

[Swampman]

Everything I posted is right on topic.  God is in control.  Once you figure that out you will be at peace.

[SHOOTALL]

when was it said he wasn't ?

[Dixie Dude]

Back on the topic of Abortion.  Europeans outlaw late term abortions after 5 months, BECAUSE the baby can live outside the womb with today's technology after 5 months.  They have an 85% survival rate at 5 months.  At least lets put this restriction on.  I think it should be outlawed, but at the very least after 5 months.  Then work to get it down the the first trimester, BECAUSE there are brainwaves and a full heartbeat at 6 weeks.  Once a woman finds out she is PG, it is usually 3-4 weeks along.  She should at least only have a week or two to make the decision.  Once a woman knows the TRUTH about the development of the child, she usually doesn't have an abortion, but gives it up for adoption.  I can go along with rape, insest or if it is life threating.  Most pro-lifers can go along with that.  I do know a den mother for a girls dorm who had a girl in the dorm that had 8 abortions.  She asked her why she didn't use birth control.  She said she would forget to take the pill daily.  Lust gone wild. 

[ironglow]

DD;
  Some people just can't be helped..if she expects us to pay for her stupidity and abortions, perhaps she needs more than a daily pill..snip, snip..

[45-70.gov]

Back on the topic of Abortion.  Europeans outlaw late term abortions after 5 months, BECAUSE the baby can live outside the womb with today's technology after 5 months.  They have an 85% survival rate at 5 months.  At least lets put this restriction on.  I think it should be outlawed, but at the very least after 5 months.  Then work to get it down the the first trimester, BECAUSE there are brainwaves and a full heartbeat at 6 weeks.  Once a woman finds out she is PG, it is usually 3-4 weeks along.  She should at least only have a week or two to make the decision.  Once a woman knows the TRUTH about the development of the child, she usually doesn't have an abortion, but gives it up for adoption.  I can go along with rape, insest or if it is life threating.  Most pro-lifers can go along with that.  I do know a den mother for a girls dorm who had a girl in the dorm that had 8 abortions.  She asked her why she didn't use birth control.  She said she would forget to take the pill daily.  Lust gone wild.

who pays the bill for 18 years after??
i certainly don't want to raise  someone  not wanted by their own  mother
if  you do....good for you,....i have  wanted  kids and grand kids  i am responsible for


who decides  once they get to beg...and proove rape or incest?
what  if durng the ''begging'' prosses...
..a government judge tables his decision a few more months?


the decicion to continue a pregnancy should  ONLY be  made by the pregnant!!
call it  killing an  unborn person if you  like
who  cares  what the socialist  in Europe do??


i  beleive in freedom.....freedom  isn't free

[BUGEYE]

I tried for 14 years to adopt in Ga.  but they wanted to put black kids with black families.
we tried to get two of them that we had as foster kids.
people want those kids but the DFCS wants to keep them in foster care. more kids  = bigger budget.
thank goodness Texas had their act together and I have a daughter.
I had a place in Fla close to land_owner but had to sell it to pay the adoption fee and there's plenty of people just like me.
liberals always ask, "do you want to take care of those unwanted kids?"  YES!!!!
Michelle Bachmann also says yes and walks the walk.