abortion

[Cabin4]

Yes, that is a great question.

[Swampman]

Christ death was to redeem the elect so they would be the elect.  All part of the plan.  All the church fathers believed and taught this.  This isn't about sins, it's about the sin that caused the earth to be cursed to begin with.  You're not interested so why ask?

[XD40SC]

You're not interested so why ask?

That answer is a cope out. I was asking to gain understanding of what your thoughts were and I got the same answer. So I ask again, how does one seek understanding without asking questions?

[billy_56081]

Christ death was to redeem the elect so they would be the elect.  All part of the plan.  All the church fathers believed and taught this.  This isn't about sins, it's about the sin that caused the earth to be cursed to begin with.  You're not interested so why ask?

Umm mumble, mumble, blah, blah, ahh, mumble, mumble, ahh, hmm.

[yellowtail3]

I wonder... why is it that abortion is much more popular to rail against, for Christian conservatives, and cynical conservatives who sucker Christians into voting for them? Seems to me that DIVORCE would be a much better target. Jesus didn't say anything about abortion, but he was definitely against divorce; no ambiguity on that.

[Cabin4]

I wonder... why is it that abortion is much more popular to rail against, for Christian conservatives, and cynical conservatives who sucker Christians into voting for them? Seems to me that DIVORCE would be a much better target. Jesus didn't say anything about abortion, but he was definitely against divorce; no ambiguity on that.

Was abortion in practice then?

[ironglow]

   Billy;
  So often, Biblically struggling people come up with some inane statement, such as "Jesus never said anything about abortion" !
  Well..DUH !  It appears Jesus never mentioned.. environmental factors, trepanning, price-gouging for lumber, diseases caught from impure water, or what oil to use for frying, all issues of the time.   ...But if you recall, his disciples did say His pronouncements would fill libraries, so what is recorded is only PART of what he taught.
  At the time, abortion was against both Roman and Jewish law, so perhaps the problem was well covered with.."thou shalt not murder".
  A simple answer to a silly statement:
   Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Old Testament, but to fulfill it.  Of course He knew every jot and tittle of it, since He caused it to be written.
   Therefore He was well aware of these important verses;
 
                           
Open your mouth for the speechless,
In the cause of all who are appointed to die
Open your mouth, judge righteously,
And plead the cause of the poor and needy.
(Proverbs 31:8-9)

[Swampman]

It's not murder.

[XD40SC]

It's not murder.

why isn't it?

[yellowtail3]

Removed by Mod.

Well, billy, any comment made by any of us could be observed as being personal, don't you think? Why do you think that politicized Christians ignore divorce, and yelp non-stop about abortion??

Was abortion in practice then?

I believe it was.

No one has any thoughts on why abortion gets so much attention from Christians nowadays, compared to divorce, which is.. more common, destructive, and very obviously spoken against by Jesus?

My own guess would be that it's the more popular sin, amongst Christians - many have done it, and there's no hiding hit, whilst abortion is easily hidden... thus can be pointed at as being done by those people, rather than a glance in the mirror... .

 

[nw_hunter]

Removed by Mod.

Well, billy, any comment made by any of us could be observed as being personal, don't you think? Why do you think that politicized Christians ignore divorce, and yelp non-stop about abortion??

Was abortion in practice then?

I believe it was.

No one has any thoughts on why abortion gets so much attention from Christians nowadays, compared to divorce, which is.. more common, destructive, and very obviously spoken against by Jesus?

My own guess would be that it's the more popular sin, amongst Christians - many have done it, and there's no hiding hit, whilst abortion is easily hidden... thus can be pointed at as being done by those people, rather than a glance in the mirror... .

 

LOL! At least the topic is back on abortion again..............Sort of

[Swampman]

It's not murder.

why isn't it?

Because a fetus isn't a different life form.  It's just a part of the mother.

[Dixie Dude]

That is not scientifically true Swampy, half the DNA is from the father.  So why doesn't the father have a say so?  If he wants the baby and the mother does not, doesn't he have a say in the matter?  The only time DNA from a human father wasn't used in a new baby was Jesus Christ.  He did not have a human father.  This is why it is a miracle.  Even if a mother could get pregnant on her own, the baby would be a clone of her, because all the DNA would be hers.  Therefore an unborn baby is half the mother and half a father and is unique.  Again you are only looking at life from God's eternal view, which is ok, but it has to be balanced with the OTHER scripture He gave concerning how we are to conduct our lives.  Doing good, fighting evil, witnessing to people so they can CHOOSE salvation.  The problem I have with churches that believe like you is they NEVER grow.  People in those churches quit living the christian life as we are told, because they begin to believe if it is going to happen it will, if not it won't, so what good can they do, and they end up doing nothing.  Human nature.  God wants us to do good works, and the Bible says we will be rewarded for our good works, not salvation, but good works beyond salvation.  Salvation is only the foundation, good works are built on the foundation.  Wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up.  If we can convince just one woman not to have an abortion, we have saved a human life, and we will be rewarded for that in heaven. 

[Swampman]

There is no such thing as an unborn baby.  Nobdy chooses salvation.  I don't care if churches grow because they do more harm than good.

[XD40SC]

It's not murder.

why isn't it?

Because a fetus isn't a different life form.  It's just a part of the mother.

Explain how a male can come from a female if it's part of her body ? She has no chromosomes to produce a male. She only has female chromosomes.

[Swampman]

That has nothing to do with it being part of her body.  It's part of her body period until it breathes on it's own.

[Dixie Dude]

Then why can some late term aborted babies breathe on their own?  How can a 5 month preme breathe?  You are not scientifically or Biblically right on this one.  The unborn baby has distinct and unique features, chromosomes, and chariteristics.  It is NOT part of the female.  It is only ATTACHED to the female for food and life support.  It is like a parasite.  A parasite can attach itself to your body or inside your body.  Your body supplies its nourishment, but it is not a part of you.  Say a tapeworm, or a virus or bacteria.  An unborn baby is like a parasites to the mother, attached not part of the mother.  A man supplies the sperm (seed as the Bible says) so the female can have a baby, unique, yet part of each.  This is also why the Bible condems beastiality.  God says it is confusion.  Bible says there are different "fleshes", the flesh of birds, the flesh of fish, the flesh of animals.  This is just saying they are different in their DNA.  This is also why it is wrong for man to mix the DNA of different animals and/or humans with apes, to create a "new" species.  It is wrong.  Man has already mixed the DNA of a sheep and goat and called it a shoat.  It didn't live long. Idea was to create a new hardy animal for wool that could eat anything like a goat. 
 
Beastiality has caused mankind to pick up disease he wasn't supposed to have.  Syphilis from sheep for instance.  Carried by sheep, but doesn't affect them.  AIDS from the green monkey in Africa.  I think most STD's were picked up from animals by man. 

[XD40SC]

That has nothing to do with it being part of her body.  It's part of her body period until it breathes on it's own.

If it has a different blod type and different sex and especially if it DNA is different- it is an individual different from the mom.

[Cabin4]

Swampy, you said earleir that an abortion is the filling of destiny by God. That said, what if abortion was made illegal and abortions suddenly stopped happening. Whats Gods view on this? The women would still want to abort, the law simply is standing in the way of destiny. How do you reconcile this?

[ironglow]

  An uninformed question was asked as to why divorce isn't addressed even more strongly than abortion...
  OK, I'll take that task on, and being one who has a standing marriage  of 55 years I do feel qualified to answer.  One should do their best to avoid divorce...just as surely as they should do their best to avoid abortion !  I will  answer the questioner in four easy steps:
  1) Divorce should be avoided because many people get hurt by it.
 2) Though they sometimes endure much pain, almost all victims of divorce recover.
  3) Abortion should be avoided because people get killed by it.
  4) The primary victims of abortion (babies) never recover.  (But rest assured, they will be in Heaven)
 
    Often, the secondary victims of abortion (the mother) lives the rest of her life in torment..remembering what she did to her baby.
    Secondary victims take note; 
         Jesus can forgive even that sin..   He said  "come to me you who labor and are heavy laden...and I will give you peace".
    ( Matthew 11:28)

[XD40SC]

  An uninformed question was asked as to why divorce isn't addressed even more strongly than abortion...
  OK, I'll take that task on, and being one who has a standing marriage  of 55 years I do feel qualified to answer.  One should do their best to avoid divorce...just as surely as they should do their best to avoid abortion !  I will  answer the questioner in four easy steps:
  1) Divorce should be avoided because many people get hurt by it.
 2) Though they sometimes endure much pain, almost all victims of divorce recover.
  3) Abortion should be avoided because people get killed by it.
  4) The primary victims of abortion (babies) never recover.  (But rest assured, they will be in Heaven)
 
    Often, the secondary victims of abortion (the mother) lives the rest of her life in torment..remembering what she did to her baby.
    Secondary victims take note; 
         Jesus can forgive even that sin..   He said  "come to me you who labor and are heavy laden...and I will give you peace".
    ( Matthew 11:28)

Ironglow is correct.  I got divorced years ago, it was very difficult at the time. I have since remarried and  life is better now with my new wife than ever before. Aborted babies don't have that opportunity.

[Shu]

King David whom we have no doubt was one of the "elect" being a man after God's own heart, given that title by God himself. King David the went on to commit adultry and had his friend the husband of the woman he slept with killed. David when confronted by the prophet about this went before God and begged forgiveness. (Read Psalms 51) David having begged for forgiveness because he knew he had sinned. It would have been easy for him to say Hey God You Made me do this so this your fault. That didn't happen. David again sinned by disobeying God, God sent an angel of death to kill the fighting men of Israel. When David saw what was happening he  built an altar and scrificed to God for his sin. Again he begged for forgiveness. David being God's elect asked for forgiveness yet again and did not use the you made it's your fault line. David took responsibility for his own miss deeds and did not try to pawn them off on God. This clearly shows freewill and choice.
Jonah was told to go and preach. He disobeyed and spent 3 days in the belly of a great fish.When he repented and decided to obey he was released from the fish. He had a choice obey or die.
 
God not being a respecter of a persons birth or station in life gave these 2 men choices. Is there any reason to believe we don't have a choice.
 
Need a New Testament example. Jesus walking on the water. Peter started walking towards him took his eyes of him and started to sink. Peter cried out Lord save me. Jesus reached out and saved him. Jesus then asked "why did you doubt"? This is clear indication we have a choice. Peter chose to look away and give into fear and doubt. Jesus immediately saved him when he asked to be rescued.
 
Why didn't Jesus teach on abortion? It wasn't rampant like today. People of the time knew that at the moment of conception the baby was alive. Today we debate this to make ourselves feel good so we don't feel the guilt of sin. We like to water down the Word of God to justify ourselves so we can feel good in our sin.
 
It is very much true God is Soveriegn and nothing happens without his knowledge. He gave us a will and choices simply becuase if you have no free will you cannot love. Love is the greatest gift given. You cannot demand it or control it all you can do is give it away. Love conqueors all.
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

great post Shu

[Swampman]

You cannot love until you believe in predestination.
 

if abortion was made illegal and abortions suddenly stopped happening. Whats Gods view on this? The women would still want to abort, the law simply is standing in the way of destiny. How do you reconcile this?

Man's law cannot stand in the way of God's eternal plan.  God will only allow those to survive that he wants to survive.  He controls the gene pool to get his elect here.
 
King David did exactly what God wanted him to do.  Solomon came from this union, built the temple, and is part of the lineage of Jesus.  Exactly according to God's will and plan.

[Dixie Dude]

Yes, great post.  That is what I have been trying to get across to Swampy.  From God's side, He is eternal, sees the begining and the end.  We DON'T.  We have choices to make.  We don't know the begining from the end.  So, we can't just sit back and allow evil to continue.  We must fight it, not with weapons, but words and works.  Abortion is wrong.  Divorce is wrong.  However, God did allow divorce in the NT in case of adultry or an unbeliever wants to leave.  I too have been through a divorce.  My ex wife left be for another.  Left me with kids to raise, about 16 years ago.  I now am remarried and happy.  Her ex left her for a girl half his age.  It happens.  Why, who knows.  Like Shu said above, divorce you can get over.  Abortion, the baby never had a chance.  Who knows, God may have sent us a doctor who would have found a cure for cancer or something, but the mother aborted him.  If these 50-60 million would have been allowed to live, you would have a greater economy, more people paying into SS and taxes, thus no shortages of revenue.  They would have needed housing, food and clothing, so the economy would have been bigger. 

[Swampman]

No, we'd have 50-60 million unwanted children and unemployed adults that would have been abused, gone hungry, and died young who would have had to be supported by the taxpayers.  Why do you think God wants cancer cured?  If he wanted it cured it would be.
 
The bottom line is this.  God is in control and always has been.  That's what the Bible says.

[ironglow]

Swampy;
  Remember..lots of fun and games can be done by "picking and choosing" scripture. 
When a smarmy neighbor, who was always ready to ridicule anything Christian asked his Christian neighbor..
      " What's the 'good word' today..can you give me a bit of scripture I can use today" ?
 
        The Christian man calmly replied;  " Matthew 27:5  and   Luke 10:37b  ...   The unbeliever quickly went to his garage, where he knew there was an old, dusty Bible...and he read...
 
   
      (Matt 27:5) ..."So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself".       
 
      (Luke 10:37b)  ..." Go thou and do likewise"...

[Shu]

So why did David need to repent? Really if it was God's will that David sin why repent? If we are not guilty of sin there would be no need to repent or need of a savior.
God is a Master of taking bad situations and making them greater.  For we know all things work to good for those that love God and are called according to his purpose.
There is no doubt God is in control, no one ever claimed he was not. I see your point Swampman, God is soviergn and very much in control. How could we know good with out knowing evil? How could we know mercy with out knowing wrath. How could we know sin without knowing righteousness? Still though we do have a choice, you may not like the choices given but they are still choices. God being the creator of all things and the author and prefecter of our faith. You are right in saying God wants to fellowship with us. He does indeed, how much more is it fullfilling when we go into His presence becuase it is our desire to have fellowship with Him? He meets our desire with His. Obviously we cannot go into His presence unless He made a way possible. His elect are His children and have the right to direct access and presence. This is why Jesus said any who believed in Him become the children of God. The desire of God is that all should believe but not all will. Yes, God knows exactly who will and who won't. That is the great thing about Him, he let's you decide. Those even seeing the works of God's hands and yet refusing to believe are without excuse.
There is no basis for "you cannot love unless you believe in predestination" Even those that deny Christ know love in at least one of its forms.
Swampman you choose to believe predestination and man has an excuse for his bad behavior, I get that. I choose to believe man is without excuse for his bad behavior and is dire need of a savior.
 

[Dixie Dude]

Swampy, most abortions in the 70's, 80's, and 90's were white middle and upper class girls.  These children would have been brought up in middle class homes, probably by their grandparents, or given up for adoption to good parents.  Most poor black and white women had their kids to add to their child support, welfare, and food stamp incomes.  This would not have changed anything.  I know a dorm mother at a local university who had a girl in her dorm who had 8 abortions.  Her parents didn't know.  Dorm mother asked her why she didn't take the pill.  She said she would forget to take it every day.  That is lazy, don't know how she was doing in classes.  My brother had a girlfriend in high school that he got pg.  He wanted to marry her and have the kid, she did too.  Her parents MADE her get an abortion.  She had a lot of emotional problems after that.  They never married, but my brother ran into her brother a while back.  She had been married several times, and was a very unhappy person.  Never got over the abortion.  Most women I know who had one as a teenager, regretted it and realised it was a human baby life.  They said they prayed for forgiveness and want to meet their aborted child in heaven.  Abortion not only takes a human life, but it causes about 60% of the women to have emotional feelings about it later, like regret, fear, needing forgiveness.   

[Avyctes]

I concur with Dixie.  I know a family who's daughter was raped by a different ethnicity as a young teenager.  Her parents forced her to have an abortion.  She's scarred for life.  She wishes she had the baby rather than kill it.  The child didn't harm her, the father did, it's something she'll never get over.  Time doesn't heal all wounds, and whether pro-choice groups admit it or not, there are many psychological after affects from having abortions.  Some don't think they'll feel a thing until later after it's too late, then they live lives filled with regret.