JFK - Was He Any Good?

[us920669]

I was 14 when he was elected and I thought he was way cool - not a very mature appraisal.  He certainly was more exciting than the tired old fudd Eisenhower, who was actually one of our best and most under-rated presidents.


He was a pretty bad example of a rich kid - never carried any money 'cus he didn't ever think about it - expected his friends to pay for everything.  He was a playboy way into adulthood and didn't take his marital vows very seriously.  His arrogance and cockiness got him in some real jams early on - Bay of Pigs and the disastrous Vienna Summit which put us on the road to Vietnam.  I think his worst moment was the steel crisis.  Big labor got a wage hike, so naturally Big Steel raised prices and JFK basically sicked the FBI on them in a very Gestapo-like manner.  He wasn't the first president to use the FBI as political thugs, but it was done very egregiously, and may have been the first shot in the de-industrialization of America.   



On the other hand, he grew up knowing many of the Great Men of the WW II Era and apparently worried that he might not measure up.  This led to an energetic approach to Russia and the Cold War which might have developed very well if he could have put his ego on hold and started listening to other people, like the vast professional military and intelligence agencies which existed to serve him.  Certain individuals may have been corrupt, but those institutions did not bring him down.

[BUGEYE]

well, he was a war hero.  but after that, as prez, he signed his own death warrant when he appointed bobby as attorney general.  the mafia helped put him in the whitehouse and bobbys first act was to declare war on the mafia. duh!!!  I think the mafia had him killed with oswald as a patsy.
however, I do like the way he handled the missle crisis.

[Dee]

In looking at history, I would say he was about par for the course, given even today's standards. He didn't keep his word, (just ask those guys left on the beach at the Bay of Pigs), and he was a pain in the ass to the Secret Service whom were continually asked (demanded that) to cover his continual indiscretions with women, sneaking in and out of the White House.
Of course this week, we learn through the "Freedom of Information Act" that our beloved "Queen of Camelot" (Jackie) was no better, as her own memoirs tell of her affair with William Holden IN THE WHITE HOUSE, while good ole JFK was president.
Of course both he and his brother Robert were playin hide and go seek with Marilyn Monroe, so what I think his legacy is, is: A bunch of heathen children from a bootleggers family, were doin what heathen children do, in the Capital of America. And as usual, the American people are oblivious of it, and some worship them as royalty, when in fact, they were immoral degenerates with a good education, and few morals, that were exceptionally good, at not using the same door to sneak their playmates in and out of the White House.
One can defend them by saying: It was their private life, and none of our business, when in fact, they were continually making BAD DECISIONS in their own life, so why would they be better at making decisions affecting MY life.
It is like hiring a chauffeur that is a drunk, to drive you around.

[magooch]

You have to cut JFK a little slack; after all, he was a dumycrat.  Just stack him up against all the rest of them (dumycrats--past and present) and he comes off looking pretty good.  But he was still a net zero.

[BUGEYE]

his brother, along with peter lawford and marilyns doctor, murdered Marilyn Monroe.

[45-70.gov]

he was an  un-repentant  democrat.....what more do you need to know
[Reagan  was a repentant democrat]


look at  his brother  TED


and those same folks that continually re-elected ted   also elected  romnee


if  he were running for  office  today
based on his policy
he would be classified  as an  extreem  RIGHT WINGER

[BUGEYE]

45-70.gov, thanks for the reminder.  I had forgot about Ted murdering his girlfriend.

[yellowtail3]

JFK was a patriot, he loved his country, and he was a good PT skipper.


We're all flawed one way or another.

[us920669]

You must not know the story.  He went through PT Basic school but was never trained as a skipper.  That's why they gave him the reserve boat, and that's why they were all asleep that night - they had been up all day doing maintenance while the line boat guys slept.  His old man got him shipped out early so he wouldn't marry a Swedish journalist who J Edgar had made as a Nazi spy - she did work for a pro-fascist newspaper.  I don't think JFK was much interested in her politics.  Unfortunately, he was assigned to ONI at this time.

[45-70.gov]

45-70.gov, thanks for the reminder.  I had forgot about Ted murdering his girlfriend.

now you know why democrats support abortions


so they  won't have to kill their girlfriend  too

[yellowtail3]

You must not know the story.  He went through PT Basic school but was never trained as a skipper.  That's why they gave him the reserve boat, and that's why they were all asleep that night - they had been up all day doing maintenance while the line boat guys slept.

Well... for years I bought the line (by his detractors) that JFK was an incompetent CO until I read Dick Keresey's book, PT-105. It is excellent, and I highly, highly recommend it:
http://www.amazon.com/PT-105-Dick-Keresey/dp/1557504695

Keresey characterized the Blackett Strait operation, where PT-109 was lost, as the biggest foul-up in the history of all PT operations.

[yellowtail3]

GOOD READ ALERT!!

I mentioned Dick Keresey's book. about ten years ago he also wrote an article for American Heritage which is well worth the read; link below. The article was about PT boats generally, and Keresey's experience, but there's a substantial bit on JFK and the Blackett Strait fiasco, starting from bottom of page 5. This is from page 8:

I might have forgotten that fiasco in Blackett Strait but for the incredible coincidence that a future President was the victim. I think it needs retelling, not only because it misrepresents the effectiveness of PT boats but also because it has been used to demean Jack Kennedy, PT-boat captain, and this is wrong. John F. Kennedy, President, is a subject about which I have no worthwhile opinion. The President is a man I met only once, for ten minutes in the Oval Office, where we talked happily about the boats. But as a captain, Jack Kennedy was a man of courage, a good PT-boat man, and he was good company. Ranking the virtue of good company on a level with the other two may have been peculiar to those on PT boats. We were almost always in the front lines. We knew it was time to pack when the base got showers; when the movies showed up, we were long gone. So we were highly dependent on conversation to divert ourselves, and Kennedy was a good listener and an amusing talker. Our conversation was seldom deep and never about future plans, for this brought bad luck. Mostly it was rough banter about one another’s habits and humiliations—and, to us, was very entertaining. I do not think there has ever been a time in my life when I have laughed as much. Kennedy was one of a score of PT friends who made this possible. He was one of the “happy few,” a phrase from Shakespeare’s Henry V where the king speaks to his men before the Battle of Agincourt:
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers... for today he that sheds his blood with me shall be my Brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall gentle his condition; and gentlemen in England now abed shall think themselves accursed that they were not there

article at http://www.americanheritage.com/content/farthest-forward


Keresey speaks on this panel: http://forum-network.org/lecture/conversation-world-war-ii-pt-boat-veterans

[SHOOTALL]

JFK was a patriot, he loved his country, and he was a good PT skipper.


We're all flawed one way or another.

He was better than some rep today as far as for country

[us920669]

PT angle was not meant to demean Kennedy at all, came out of a book I long ago lost track of.  His affair with Inga Arvad is well-known and often cited, no fault of his he was shipped out early, Joe doubtlessly arranged it.  He kept his head and kept his men together, always performed in an exemplary manner.  Squadron commander noted his credentials, gave him the reserve boat with the expectation that skipper and crew would sleep at night.  How else could a destroyer ram a PT boat?  Obviously, this is not something that would be widely publicized.  Sure beats LBJ's Silver Star, a complete travesty and disgrace.


I thought they called it The Slot and it was a critical Japanese supply route.  Solomon campaign was very important for Allied war aims, leading to failure of New Guinea campaign, destruction of Rubaul and collapse of Japanese initiative.  Kennedy performed some of the most dangerous work of the war, definitely the tip of the spear.


He did step on some powerful toes - Federal Reserve and Israel - but unless they ran the American Mafia, which find a bit fantastic, they did not kill him.  He became a good Keynesian and ran a deficit.  RFK in '68 wanted to sell advanced jets to Israel. 


 

[us920669]

Interesting mag article, thanks.  First person oral histories are great, but I've seen where they are not always exactly correct.  All I have are my recollections from many years ago, and that a boat in Kennedy's division tried to warn them about the DD but couldn't raise them on radio for reasons men who were there found perfectly honorable.


The name of the possible honeytrap was Inga Arvad, apparently Danish, can be searched easily.   I hotly dispute the Wiki entry that J Edgar Hoover was an enemy of the Kennedy family.  Numerous sources have Joe Sr and J Edgar as fast friends, and Ms Arvad seems badly compromised as a Nazi sympathizer.  FBI surveillance was obviously intended to protect the kid, not incriminate him.  Another example of how easy it is to portray long ago events in the light of modern political tension.  If JFK was alive today he would be a republican, probably Tea Party, and the old man - don't even ask.     

[SHOOTALL]

It is rumored that JEH kept notes on most people in Washinton and used it to get what he wanted and protect himself . Hey the guy wore dresses some report 

[BUGEYE]

US92,  you're right about wiki stuff.  we have no control over its content.

[Dee]

It is rumored that JEH kept notes on most people in Washinton and used it to get what he wanted and protect himself . Hey the guy wore dresses some report 

SHOOTALL, I think you have JFK mixed up with J. Edgar Hoover. I don't know if he wore dresses, but they say he was as "queer as a football bat", and kept everyone quite about it through blackmail.

[SHOOTALL]

DEE check the J E H    not J F K in my post . My fault for being lazy with spelling out .

[briarpatch]

His personal life from the stand point of marriage and infidelity was a shambles. His character was bloodied in the eyes of those that considered the institution of marriage, Sacred.
It is considered by many on both sides of the debate that problems he had during his presidency were in consequence of, The devil having bought his soul,
His father joe sold his sons soul and presidency to the coarser elements of society. This may have hampered a stellar performance as president.
If you look at his devotion to his country, no man offered more and none stood as high.
He could inspire, lead and perform as a president should.
I thought some of his weaknesses were his appointments, robert macnamara and lbj along with some incidences, bay of pigs.
I think if his presidency had been run by JFK he would be consided one of the best if not the best. In irony it may have been the greed of his father that cut his life and presidency short.
 

[Dee]

DEE check the J E H    not J F K in my post . My fault for being lazy with spelling out .

And mine for not noticing it. Oh, well.

[us920669]

Yes on Arvad, died in Arizona in the 90's, occasioned a flurry of publicity.  She became mistress to a Swedish industrialist who used his ships to refuel U Boats.  Or maybe she became an Allied double - you never know with that world.


Lansky tried to flee to Israel but was denied admission.  Intell?  Well, the mafia ran America at the street level in those days and covered the waterfront in NY during the war, apparently with the president's blessing.  It certainly goes back to Cuba and the mafia, but only one or two inside men plus contract agent/stringer types at CIA, not actual institutional involvement.


Hoover was a blade, may have been arrested having gay sex in New Orleans in the 20's.  His most secret files were apparently one of the most extensive collections of porno in America, but remember, it only works if you fear exposure.


I should have known this would go straight to Dallas.  I read Ultimate Sacrifice a while back, read it pretty carefully.  Seemed not only plausible but airtight.  I'm always suspicious of books that take 800 pages when 250 - 300 would do, and there's a lot of smoke and obfuscation (pretty complicated story anyway), but the basic premise is sound - the mob did it, including the old man's pals and guys JFK was on a first name basis with.  I don't see gold or oil or Vietnam or Israel.  The substance was heroin, and LBJ's Great Society made the big boys smile (my interpretation, not the book's).  What the book does prove is that a job of that magnitude isn't a matter of marksmanship, it's all about tricking so many powerful people into incriminating themselves that they have no choice but to accept a convenient patsy.  If we have a secret government today, it's because of the assassination, not the other way around.

[Dee]

As another note to this spreading conversation, I mentioned that this week Jackie Kennedy's memoirs were released this week. In them, Jackie expressed the fact that SHE THOUGHT, that LBJ had something to do with her husbands assassination, and believed that he, an other oil people were in on getting JFK killed. How interesting after 50 years of speculation.

[us920669]

Obviously, I don't really know.  I've got zero respect for LBJ but I never figured him for it, just seemed too obvious.  It seems he was completely in the thrall of the godfathers, as was Nixon, sad to say.  Once upon a time mafia support was not a bad thing for a politician to have - Truman was the worst case.  Of course, that was before heroin changed everything.

[magooch]

I don't know from conspiracies and myths, but I served in the Air Force while JFK was President and I can tell you an absolute fact.  We were told over the intercom that Kennedy was killed and the entire flight line erupted with cheers from Airmen and for all I know, maybe some civilian employees.  There were guys dancing around throwing their hats in the air for quite awhile.  I thought there would be hell to pay, but nobody said a thing.  I think some of the officers were kind of in shock.  I asked one of the guys who was hooten and hollerin, what it was all about and he said, They finally got the S.O.B.  I'm not sure I really understood why they hated his guts so much, but I have my theories.

[ironglow]

  JFK was the first prez I voted for.  I fit the Churchill model.." if you are not a liberal at 20, you have no heart..if you are not a conservative by 40, you have no brain".  Actually, my parents were Dems (Dems were different then)..and as many I just followed their dogma for a time, until I learned better.
   JFK as prez was about average..his personal life in that era by media collusion, was kept quiet.  He withstood the USSR on the high seas, which any succeeding prez would have done, with the possible exceptions of Carter and BHO.
    His really big mess-up (besides his personal life) was the Bay-of-Pigs fiasco.  He promised much to those who landed upon the beach...then deserted them on that same beach.  This desertion has never been satisfactorily explained !
  I know a man with a Phd who has attended the JFK "conspiracy meetings" in Dallas for years.  Many of those attendees have suspected LBJ as the perp for many years.

[purpledragon]

As to BUGEYE'S first post.Bug I agree with you on this one.Yes Bobby Kennedy was an egotistical Idiot................He signed his own death warrant when he had Carlos dumped in the jungle of South America with no shoes.................

[OldSchoolRanger]

PT angle was not meant to demean Kennedy at all, came out of a book I long ago lost track of.  His affair with Inga Arvad is well-known and often cited, no fault of his he was shipped out early, Joe doubtlessly arranged it.  He kept his head and kept his men together, always performed in an exemplary manner.  Squadron commander noted his credentials, gave him the reserve boat with the expectation that skipper and crew would sleep at night.  How else could a destroyer ram a PT boat?  Obviously, this is not something that would be widely publicized.  Sure beats LBJ's Silver Star, a complete travesty and disgrace.

Was the book titled: "Profiles in Courage"?  I seem to remember it from when i was in the 9th grade.

[OldSchoolRanger]

If you look at his devotion to his country, no man offered more and none stood as high.
He could inspire, lead and perform as a president should.
I thought some of his weaknesses were his appointments, robert macnamara and lbj along with some incidences, bay of pigs.
I think if his presidency had been run by JFK he would be consided one of the best if not the best. In irony it may have been the greed of his father that cut his life and presidency short.

JFK also made a big mistake in his handling of the Berlin Wall crisis.  If he would have called Khrushchev's bluff on the building of the Berlin wall, we would not have had a divided Germany from Aug 13, 1961 until Nov. 9., 1989, when Pres. Reagan called for "Mr. Gorbachev to tear down this wall!".

[yellowtail3]

PT angle was not meant to demean Kennedy at all, came out of a book I long ago lost track of.  His affair with Inga Arvad is well-known and often cited, no fault of his he was shipped out early, Joe doubtlessly arranged it.  He kept his head and kept his men together, always performed in an exemplary manner.  Squadron commander noted his credentials, gave him the reserve boat with the expectation that skipper and crew would sleep at night.  How else could a destroyer ram a PT boat?  Obviously, this is not something that would be widely publicized.  Sure beats LBJ's Silver Star, a complete travesty and disgrace.

Was the book titled: "Profiles in Courage"?  I seem to remember it from when i was in the 9th grade.

Prob not, as that book was written by JFK (and won Pulitzer prize)