Author Topic: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...  (Read 543 times)

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Offline flagman1776

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Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« on: August 12, 2011, 11:58:25 AM »
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2011, 12:53:19 PM »
Hi flagman ,when I load a mortar light ,I just load it light . No filler ,with these small guns I would not bother . JMHO
 
Gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dittles

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2011, 02:34:56 PM »
 I just got one of Ed's can mortars, love it, and I too was wondering what to do when using a light charge in a can sized mortar. So, as with a golf ball mortar, don't worry about it?

Offline Double D

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 02:35:05 PM »
I make no pretenses of expertise with mortars.  With all the great discussion & reading...  then researching some of the key elements...   Leads me to the following questions: 
 
With conventional cannon...  small arms too... the projectile seats on the charge.  A reduced charge merely seats the projectile deeper.  Wioth a chambered piece, the projectile can go no deeper than the shoulder or reduced diamerter of the chamber.  This sounds exactly like a bore obstruction.  Why doesn't the piece blow up?
 
I was reading some translations of the French commands for firing a mortar...  and one was to add a bag of earth on top of the charge.  This sounds like an inert filler, to fill the excess chamber space. 
 
edit:
"1.  Loading the propelling powder...  ...It was possible to complement the powder charge with earth when firing a small charge..."

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/c_mortars.html
 
PS  This source has interesting discussion of chambers.
 

The old airspace will blow up my gun discussion.  Yes you can burst a gun with an air space, but all the credible reports that  I have seen over the years testing this phenomenon two things were consistent.  First the air space was  substantial and the projectile was a stuck or wedged ball.  Greener in one of his books mentions this  issue in relationship to cartridge guns and he recommend that charge occupy no less the 70% of the available space.  That is 30% airspace.

Seem fairly simple, it's not.  This topic of airspace/wads/fillers-bursting barrel/ringed chambers in probably the most contentious subject in our shooting sport.  What is most interesting is no one provides substantive proof to support their position on the yea side or the nay side--just lots of conjectures and passing old wives tales.  One man and only one man, that I am aware of has done any substantive work on the subject in the past 20-25 years and that is the late Charlie Dell.

I haven't heard any recent reports of bursting barrels related to this problem.  Lots of second hand, passed down the net reports lacking any sort credibility.  I have never been able to locate the actual "victim" for a first hand report.

I have heard a number of reports on ringed chambers, actual real reports of genuine chamber ringing.  But getting the details of what really happened is tough, to many people saying this is what happened who have no connection to the incident to be credible.  Even finding the actual person doesn't bring many answers because they really don't know what happened..

Interesting huh?  Well it is all is irrelevant to most of our cannons...Because we use windage in our cannons, although not the intention, windage bleeds off pressure.  The purpose of windage is minimize the chance the ball won't wedge in the bore and act like an obstruction.

The small amount of airspace left in a powder chamber using a reduced charge in mortar is insignificant.

Now that bag of earth the French used is not for a filler but to add to the mass of the projectile and increase pressure and in theroy increase range with a smaller charge.

I would not be concerned with air space in a golf ball mortar with a reduce change..shoot it!



 

Offline gunsonwheels

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 02:59:03 PM »
Here's the link to the Ordnance Manual:
 
http://www.archive.org/details/ordnancemanualfo00unitrich
 
and the info I was refering to is on page 473... at the bottom of the page.
 
BP in twice its volume (in other words the powder only occupies half of the total volume of the chamber) produces a maximum pressure of less than 50KSI... but two and one pounds in their volume are 133,590 psi and 185,000 psi respectively...  and that is with a .1" grain size (i.e. relatively coarse compared to FFFFg).

The old ordnance manual appears to support there is less pressure from the open space as opposed to more pressure from that space.

Offline keith44

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 07:18:01 AM »
I think GOW and DD have together reached the answer.  That is with less fuel or propellent and the pressure escape path, the windage, it is safe to shoot reduced charges.  Do not shoot a patched projectile, nor one that uses all the available bore area and all should be well
 
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Offline smokemjoe

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Re: Q RE: Chambers & reduced charges in mortars...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 07:24:10 PM »
 I am glade to hear the answer to this as I was about to ask it also, In my Bowling ball mortars the  the chambers are 6x6 in. with  powder chambers are 2 in by 3 in. deep with a 2 in. ball milled bottom, 4 oz. of 3fA fills this just to the bottom of the ball. I have shot alot of 2 oz. loads and no troubles, Was going to ask if I should use a filler like flour, But using a filler  on a load make it better for accurate shooting.  In my golf ball and soda can mortars the powder chamber is just right. filled to base.  Thanks, Joe