Author Topic: Listen to the rich guy............  (Read 4271 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
Listen to the rich guy............
« on: August 15, 2011, 06:18:42 AM »
Stop coddling the super-rich, Warren Buffett says 
       
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44143776/?GT1=43001
 
"My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It's time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice,"
 
Buffett said higher taxes for the rich will not discourage investment..
 
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 08:43:09 AM »
Higher taxes on the rich are going to do nothing.  The Billion aires actually make out when there are highertaxes on the "rich"  The same argument everyliberal makes about taxes on the poor hurting them more than the middle class or the rich are the same arguments to keep the UBER rich even higher.  If you steal 60% of their income the guy making a million is no longer a millionaire, the guy making 10 Million is still a millionaire but can not buy what he was able to buy, invest in what he was able to invest in, be it a new product or other. the Billionaire will not notice in life style any tax increase and by taking more of the millionaires out of the running for spending that money it gives them greater oppertunity to become trillionaires.and seperating the classes even farther.  Similar to once you reach a certain point by being smart and working hard you make it impossible for others to do so.  You create the landed gentry system you had in Europe for years where 90% of the population were serfs to them.  A fair tax policy allows for the uber rich to be rivaled and family money to be spent and not lived off of in trusts and money and property is cycled into the economy and we do not end up like Mexico that has 13 ruling families that own over 80% of the country that has caused many of their probles of unemployment, drugs and criminal activity.  Lower taxes on everyone encourages investment, incourages innovation, generates a wider base of taxation as a millionaire cna hire people for thousands a year, in turn those people can hire people for 100's ( service people like plumbers, handy men, lawn service.... You get the idea and that is how companies grow, how an economy grows.  Sending another million from this rich guy or that to washington is only going to decrease the economy as the federal government absorbs $ and does not circulate it.  More and more will be needed to maintain the government with a narrow tax base to where you will have to take principal rather than a percentage of interest and at some point we will just nationalize everything and be in the misory that is Communism with a ruling class and slaves. 

Offline yellowtail3

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5664
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh father of the four winds, fill my sails!
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 08:57:12 AM »
Buffett will be dismissed by many who'd normally adore him... ideology & political loyalty does that.
Jesus said we should treat other as we'd want to be treated... and he didn't qualify that by their party affiliation, race, or even if they're of diff religion.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 09:55:04 AM »
Buffett will be dismissed by many who'd normally adore him... ideology & political loyalty does that.
I think Buffett is a smart man that used his smarts and hard work to get where he is.  He is an example of how someone can go from nothing to the very top .  I think he forgets that and how he never would have been able to get where he is if the tax laws were excessive as he was trying to climb up.  Or he knows that he has made it and now wants to pull the ladder up after himself.  Either way his assesnt is what is to be admired and how he looked at the stocks he invested in and how he did his research into those companies.  He looked at the traditional methode of investing and looked to see what companies would be around in 50 years and profitable and invested in them.  He relooked at those companies and either added to the investement ot sold off the stock every so many years based on the market, government action, and tax laws.  He did not look at what a company would be worth a week from tuesday and gambled on the stock being up or down and buy and sell based on rumor.  I find it odd that he is asking that the government to raise taxes cutting profits and making stocks worth less than they should be and encouraging investors to look ing at their oppertunity costs and probably moving their money out of the market and into something else.  After all if you are making 5% on something and your next best option is to make 3% you are going to stay with the 5% untill it is only making 2.99% anbd then you are goig to move your money to the 3% return.  At a point where you are not making anything.  You are not going to do anything and just sit on your money.  At that point the UBER RICH can swoop in and buy up everything cheap and then change the laws making them even Richer.  I think there is a methode to his madness and he is looking to be the first trillionaire, or he has lost his mind!
 

Offline DDZ

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6055
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 12:33:21 PM »
Warren Buffet Backed Obama's campaign and has supported him throughout. They are best of buddies. Do we really think that Buffet is going to say anything that would go against obama's ideology.
Here is a quote from Buffet.

"Well, I'm very glad I voted for him, (Obama)" Buffett said. "That has not changed. I think the problems he has run into are monumental, particularly in terms of the economy. I mean - we're running huge deficits, which we should be running from a Keynesian standpoint to try and get this economy moving". 

Buffet is 81 years old, is worth something like 45 billion, and don't know what to do with his money. Its pretty easy from his stand point to just say tax the rich guys more. Anyway he is just following along with Obama's recipe to further wreck the economy.  Buffet is just another socialist who we have no business listening to. Just because he has lots of money does not make him intelligent. Personally, I think the guy is starting to lose his mind. It cracks me up that so many people look upon him as some God, just because he has lots of money.

Tm, you say that government needs some funds to operate. I'm guessing you mean more than they get now. Have you ever noticed from past history that the more revenue government takes in from taxes the more they spend? Its the reason we are where we are at now, trillions in debt. How will giving them more of the rich peoples money make any difference at all?
Also there is enough wasteful spending done by government that spending cuts would make up all the difference. The top 50% of people in this country pay more than enough taxes. Its just that nobody in our government has the gonads to cut wasteful spending, and end wasteful programs, for fear of losing their jobs. 
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 01:47:55 PM »
If warren Buffett wants to give his money to the government that is fine.  his 45 Billion will last Obama and his spend crazy political machine about 5 months.  Then what?
Look I can show you where higher taxes on the "rich" have hurt the middle class and incresed the Uber Rich like Buffett.
The Inheritance tax says that for anything you leave your heirs in excess of 600,000 you owe 50% on as a death tax.  There are loopholes to it so the Kennedys and others in the Uber Rich will not have to pay it and have kept the family fortunes and estates.  But back to your statement.   The farms in the 80's had Farm aid to pay the taxes owed.  Over generations of people owning and working farms those farms all of a sudden were worth a Million dollars as they had 1,000 acres.  These farmers were making 25 to 30K a year, clearly middle class but through generations had aquired enough land needed to be come middle class and mke 25 to 30 a year owning a farm.  The farm land jumped to $1,000 an acer and in the late 80's as people passed away all of a sudden Uncle Sam wanted his pound of flesh.  And the kids did not have the $200,000 to pay the taxes.  One of two things happened.  1 the IRS seized the farms and auctioned them off for what they could and if they got 250,000 they gave the 50,000 to the family.  Or they were forced to sell the farms to, corperate farms, for $800 an acer as they were the only ones with $ to buy.  So what was woth a million and employed a family of middle class was then either stolen for tax money, or had to be sold cheaply and quickly to avoid the IRS seizing it and selling it.  Putting middle class out of the middle class and growing the corperate farms and the investors, LIKE BUFFETT!  Stealing from the Assest rich does not make the playing field even, all it does is allow the UBER RICH to buy assests cheaper and then pay to change the laws later.  The whole idea of a tax law that either gives you money, or does not steal your money if you do X is not a fair system.  The social engineering of the country with the tax law has gotten us into the mess we are in now buy having people do things that are not ecconomiclly sound but are tax sound.  Having a company bleeding profits to offset earnings to get under a certain ammount so you are not taxed does not make real sence and the creative accounting on both the Governement and the Corperate levels are criminal.  Closing the loopholes on yachts only stopped people from buying new American built boats, Sen Kerry bought a boat from Australia docked it so he did not pay luxury tax on it.  If we did not have these loopholes, luxury taxes or the other boat builders would still be employing a few thousand workers as well as the auxillary suppliers of equipment and materials all middle class jobs gone to either punish the rich or to close a tax loop hole.
Your idea of spending cuts not making up the difference and we need new taxes is wrong!  In the 70's we had a 90% tax rate on the rich.  When it was lowered to 29% under Ronald Reagan  three times the money flowed to washington for them to spend and the Demoicrat controlled congress spent it and more.  When they realized they were over spending they worked out a deal to reduce the rate of growth of the spending (not actual spending but how muich more they could spend next year) and then increased it once they got a tax increase.  The tax increase cut revinue by 15% and spending increased by 25%.  The tax cut lead to the Bush ression of 91 along with CNN saying ression at every turn.  Creating the debt we are adding to at two and three times now.  If you want to spend more, if you want to eliminate the UBER RICH then lower taxes!  Curb spending and do not allow people to come here work for a year, and then retire at full SS benefits and then take it back to the country they came from!  And our system will not be broken.
Lower Taxes = Lower costs.  Lower costs = higher demand.  Higher demand = higher incomes.  Higher incomes generate Higher demands. resulting in a wider tax base resulting in more money.  Would you rather have 90% of a million  Or 15% of a Billion?  With the greater demands due to lower costs more will be purchased as more is demanded innovation and substitution goods will be created to meet the demand.  If you have a factory that can make 100 of something and 100 are demanded by the economy then you have no reason to change.  If the taxes are lowered and in turn your prices can come down and 150 are now demanded you need to do a few things.  A innovate to get better equipment to increase production.  B- hire a second shift.  C open a new plant or hire a plant to make the 50 needed.  Either way you are going to make more and lets say at 10% profit you are now paying on 15 rather than 10 not to mention the people you get your supplies from.  They will need to hire additional people or machinery to get you the materials you make your items from.  All of them will be paying Payroll taxes as well as the increased profits for selling more.  Then as others see that you are making a profit my come up with a similar product and try to hire your workers for more money.  You will loose some and have to pay more for others giving them more disposable income to spend on thier wants and needs again expanding the economy and flipping that same dollar more times as those demands are going to generate profits and disposible incomes to fufill wants and needs ever expanding.  Government unlike your house hold income does not have a sealing and not matter what they need will spend more and more and expand.  The only way to feed the beast is to allow the private sector to expand and the only way for that to happen is tax cuts! 

Offline -Shaggy-

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 569
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 01:59:50 PM »
Somebody please tell Warren that if he wants to pay more in taxes, HE CAN. All he has to do is send the gooberment a check AND THEY WILL CASH IT. Then he can get his rich friends who have been coddled for too long to send in their checks, AND THEY WILL CASH THOSE, TOO. When I hear that he has sent in his check for a few billion to help out his bud Obama, I will be convinced he is serious about paying more willingly. Til then , he's just another rich guy who thinks he knows what everyone else should do.

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 02:36:45 PM »
YES the people that can make a factory, can buy the materials, can pay you for your time are the ones that create jobs.  They create those jobs not because they are nice people but because they see a way to make money in the endevor.  They see a way to make more, they think they have a better mouse trap.  But they are not willing to make the mouse trap unless some one is willing and able to buy it at a profitable ammount.  Clearly you are doing something with your time for money and do not work for others for free.  If you do I have a lawn that needs ot be mowed every week.  Show up with your mower, your gas and your time and take away my clipping.  But if you know it will cost you $10 a week to mow my lawn and I am willing and able to pay $25 a week and you can do 100 yards a week.  It may be worth it to you to go get a pick up and a mower and start cutting, at some point you may want to hire someone but you are not going to do so it they cost you.  You want them to make you more other wise you do not need them.
What we need to do is make it so people that thinkthey have the better mouse trap can get funding to build a factroy and employ people to make it and sell it.
The old atadge of it takes money to make money.  Well if you take the money fro mthe ones who have it then no more will be made and then nothing happens.  Government $ dries up.  A fair low tax rate of up to 25% will jump start our economy.  Raising taxes will only make the Uber rich richer and increase the number of poor.

Offline DDZ

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6055
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 04:08:25 PM »
TM, Buffet appears to think that Obama is doing all the right things, which is transferring power and money from the private sector to the state. If you don't want to call that socialist ideas, that is fine with me. Or is it you can have socialist ideas and not be a socialist?
The people of means have been paying their share. Its just that some people like you think that people with means owe the rest, more of their money. Kind of like, lets make everyone equal no matter what effort they put forth.

 Buffet also has said that the US debt is good because we can print money. So we will have no debt crises according to Buffet. All we need to do is print more money. OK great! lets do that. I still say the guy is losing his mind.
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline Hooker

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 04:21:52 PM »
Buffet is in it for Buffet. The ultra rich and large corporations will be get by paying higher taxes because they can afford it. But that does not make it right. Just because someone has more money than you does not mean they should pay taxes at a higher rate than anyone else.
The main reason Buffet wants higher taxes is to kill off the small business man competition. The government thinks anyone who makes 200,000 a year is rich. Most folks who make that kind of money are small business men who by the way supply more jobs than all the large corporations in this country.
They work harder for their money than most in this country. Now a lazy bunch of liberals and jealous under achievers want to take that hard earned money from them. While the ultra rich smile as the tyrants in power kill off their competition for them.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline andy1300

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 102
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 04:44:33 PM »
Tm7, Your 100% right on this *
The less religion we have in our government, the better *

Offline Shu

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1484
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 05:21:52 PM »
I got no problems taxing the uber rich. I have no problem paying my fair share of my middle class income taxes. It is part of being a citizen. What I have a problem with is Washington gets a dollar they spend 3. It's not the taxes or who isn't paying its the out of control spending. Spending on foolishness has gone on long enough.

Offline Hooker

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1581
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2011, 06:29:27 PM »
I got no problems taxing the uber rich. I have no problem paying my fair share of my middle class income taxes. It is part of being a citizen. What I have a problem with is Washington gets a dollar they spend 3. It's not the taxes or who isn't paying its the out of control spending. Spending on foolishness has gone on long enough.

Absolutely if they spent the money wisely there would be no need to jack anyone's taxes up.
But at the same time, why should we give these spend happy thieves any more of anyone's money?
Only an idiot thinks that giving them more money regardless of where they get it is a good thing.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
-Mark Twain
"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline SwampThing762

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 07:15:00 PM »
TM7's post #2 assumes wealth and income are one in the same, and they are not.   TM7's notion of overtaxing the rich, a timeless liberal tactic for promotion of class warfare, only applies to income.  Income creates future wealth, not what a person already has in possession.    Therefore, his whole argument is flawed and inaccurate.    I will give a correct statistical analysis of how the taxes in this country are paid:

The top 1% pays 38% of all income taxes and earns 20% of all U.S. Adjusted Gross Income.

The top 5% pays 58.7% of all income taxes and earns 34.7% of U.S. Adjusted Gross Income.

The top 25% pays 86% of all income tax.

This is based on IRS data in individual income taxes for 2008.

More recently, 50% of American households pay no federal income tax.    Speaking of shared sacrifice and a balanced approach, how about telling them to pony up and pay their taxes?  However, the liberals in the USA do not want to hear of this idea, as that means that they have to give up their ill-gotten gains that were confiscated from working people by the looters to give to the moochers.

By the way, to the libs here at GBO, when was the last time you got a job from a poor person, or welfare recipient?

ST762
We learned the true nature of Islam on 11 Sept 2001.

Show your appreciation for Islam....eat more bacon.

"Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam." (Not to us Lord, not us, but to your name give the glory)  -- Knights Templar motto

Offline nomosendero

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5760
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2011, 07:17:38 PM »
Quote
Buffet is 81 years old, is worth something like 45 billion, and don't know what to do with his money. Its pretty easy from his stand point to just say tax the rich guys more. Anyway he is just following along with Obama's recipe to further wreck the economy.  Buffet is just another socialist who we have no business listening to. Just because he has lots of money does not make him intelligent. Personally, I think the guy is starting to lose his mind. It cracks me up that so many people look upon him as some God, just because he has lots of money.


 
Excuse me...how is a guy worth 45 Billion a Marxist??...I didn't pick up on that..Since Buffet likely remembers the ww2 era, is there the slightest chance that Buffet thinks that people of means need to step up and do their part again...or pay their share...is that a possibility besides Marxist rationalizations for his motives.....?
 
If we listen to mcwooduck we are told that wealthy folks are the only engine that drives the economy as if they are Gods themselves, and they should be untouchable regarding regulations or taxes....and then we juxtaposition back to spending issues.  Fact is some lucky folks have accumulated 80% of the wealth in the USA due to tax cuts, deregulation, open borders, offshoring, tax loopholes, etc....what is wrong with asking them to pay a little forward in the USA's hour of need...? Or should it be the peasants that carry on ...?
 
 
..TM7
.

Well, how is Soros a Marxist, hmmm.
 
Buffet did not say these things on the way to the top, because he would have never made the top if what he advocated had been in place. He is now in a position to prosper regardless & a very small return is alot of money. He cares nothing about the Americans struggling to be successful. We can look at Socialist leaders in the past & see they had it made, but knew what was best for everyone else. Such is Buffett.
I respect what he has done, but have zero respect for him.
Buffett, Soros & Obama belong together.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2011, 07:58:45 PM »
The problem with economics is, until now, there has been no real way to "test" an economic theory, but that may be changing now. I won't go back to the beginnings of economic theory, but I will start with the period prior to 1929 and move forward at break-neck speed. Here is my reader's digest summary of economic theory:

   1. SUPPLY AND DEMAND

In the industrial era of the United States there was a firm belief in capitalism and free enterprise would fix the economy. Taxes were a hindrance to people going into business, or growing their business. There was always a tension between supporting a government big enough to provide the needs of the country, without being so burdensome that the taxes stifled the climate of free enterprise. Recession was not viewed as a problem, but as a solution. Recession was the economy correcting itself. Leave the economy alone, and if houses get too expensive, then the recession will come in and RE-SET prices. This thinking is blamed for Hoover and the Republicans taking a hands-off approach to the Great Depression. The thinking was, when the economy crashed, was to leave it alone and it will get well all by itself.

2. KEYNESIAN ECONOMICS

An odd prolific thinker John Maynard Keynes wrote a book putting forth the idea that there are times when the economy gets so sick, so out of kilter that the usual practice of allowing recession to reset the economy just doesn't work. Keynes believed in supply and demand, but he also believed that if there is a sort of synergistic effect caused by poor choices and mass fear that is like being caught in whirling pool of rushing water and you just go round and round and can't get out without help. Keynes thought this was the time when the government should step in and use it's power to stimulate the economy.

Keynesian economics was being practiced on a limited basis by FDR and the Great Depression government, but before we could see if it really worked we had World War II. The Great War put people back to work, eliminated most unemployment, but in general the people were not really living well. By the end of the war the economy seemed to have reset itself, and we had good times starting in the 1950s.

Some Keynesian theory inspired people like Lyndon Johnson to declare war on poverty and there was a belief that a big spending government could just keep writing checks and stimulate the hell out of the economy and things would be great.

New recessions and frightening National Debt brought on a reaction that was decidedly anti-Keynesian.

3. SUPPLY SIDE ECONOMICS

The more recent and generally Republican approach to the economy was to marry three parts of pure capitalism with one part of diluted Keynesianism. You may recall how we all waited with baited breath while Allen Greenspan would announce if interest rates would be cut, stay, or rise. The theory was that the economy was a little like a steam engine and if it cooled off you heated it up with a turn of the dial (cutting interest rates), and if it got too hot (inflationary) all you had to do was ease back on the dial (stay or raise interest rates). Business would grow when the economy was running smoothly at a controlled pace.

When the middle class and working class and the poor complained we were told that there was a trickle down effect. Let Big Business do well and the money would trickle down to the peons. It felt more like we're peed on than peons.

4. NEO-KEYNESIANISM

With this recent 2008 recession people are thinking back to Hoover era Republicans who did nothing and let a bad Recession become a Great Depression with deflated prices and (at one point) 25% unemployment. Tweaking the economy by turning the interest rate dial stopped working. We knew that when the interest rate was dropped to zero and the economy continued to tank.

We now have, for the first time in history, a chance to actually test Keynesian Economics. This makes a lot of people nervous. It should. We are in a horrible situation and people are actually considering using an untested economic theory to fix a very real problem.

On the other hand, all economic theories are untested, so anything we do is going to be an untested theoretic solution. No one knows what is right? Anything we do to address our current economic woes will be untested things.

THE BRAKES

The Republicans want to put the brakes on, and just fall back on cutting taxes, and hoping that lower taxes is going to inspire big business to just start working again.

Many Americans, like me, just don't buy it. Big business is for big business not for America and not for the people of America. If big business cared about the people of the United States they would invest in the US and not ship jobs off to exploited workers in countries with low taxes, poverty wages, and a total disregard for working conditions. Big business does not support trickle down economics. To big business the trickle is just a leak that hasn't been plugged yet.

Some Republicans have suggested that IF money is spent it should be sure to create jobs that are going to be sustained. They mean jobs in the private sector, not government jobs. This is a reasonable suggestion. The counter to this is that we are in an emergency. When you have a patient with a failing heart you don't stop and consider what you can do to repair the broken bones. Instead you ignore all the problems except the one problem that is essential. Unless we get the economy moving we are only going to get into a deeper and deeper economic hole and it is going to be harder and harder to get out of this hole.

One thing is sure, and that is that whatever money the government distributes to the states to spend, these Republican Legislators are not going to pass on the money. Their hands will be out just like everyone else. Many of the crazy schemes for stimulus money are coming from Republicans opposed to the stimulus. Consider the Mob Museum money being requested by Las Vegas.

THE OBAMA DILEMMA

While Keynesianism is untested, many feel it is something to try. The cutting taxes thing and deregulating business and hoping for the best has been tried for years and we see where we are now. The mood is, at least try this Keynesian thing.

According to the theory if the economy is down a trillion dollars then it needs a government stimulus injection, but that government stimulus does not have to be a trillion dollars. According to the theory a percentage of the needed boost is all you have to do, say 1% and once, say $600 to $800 billion is in the hands of the people they will go out, pay bills, buy cars, houses, do repairs, and everywhere they go to spend money those service providers and retailers will have more money to spend. $800 billion in the hands of regular people will become recycled dollars. Every dollar they spend with a retailer or service provider is going to be re-spent by the people who get those dollars, and the people getting that money will spend and with business getting better, more supplies will be needed more workers needed, and eventually the economic sputtering engine will take hold, get into a rhythm and start running smoothly.

Obama has not said that this is the solution. Obama promised to work on the problem. It is my opinion that it might be better to get this money into the hands of regular people and let them buy stuff and start small businesses and get homes, and NOT give it to big business. Big business could care less about this country or its citizens. This was never clearer than when we learned that at the same time these financial giants were on the brink of collapse and at the very time they were lobbying for and receiving billions of tax payer dollars from the government they were giving upper level management millions and millions of dollars in bonuses.
http://searchwarp.com/swa429228.htm
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2011, 08:02:40 PM »
AS one who was present at the creation of “supply-side economics” back in the 1970s, I think it is long past time that the phrase be  put to rest. It did its job, creating a new consensus among economists on how to look at the national economy. But today it has  become a frequently misleading and meaningless buzzword that gets in the way of good economic policy.
 Today, supply-side economics has become associated with an obsession for cutting taxes under any and all circumstances. No longer do its advocates in Congress and elsewhere confine themselves to cutting marginal tax rates — the tax on each additional dollar earned — as the original supply-siders did. Rather, they support even the most gimmicky, economically dubious tax cuts with the same intensity.
 The original supply-siders suggested that some tax cuts, under very special circumstances, might actually raise federal revenues. For example, cutting the capital gains tax rate might  induce an unlocking effect that would cause more gains to be realized, thus causing more taxes to be paid on such gains even at a lower rate.
But today it is common to hear tax cutters claim, implausibly, that all tax cuts raise revenue. Last year, President Bush said, “You cut taxes and the tax revenues increase.” Senator John McCain told National Review magazine last month that “tax cuts, starting with Kennedy, as we all know, increase revenues.” Last week, Steve Forbes endorsed Rudolph Giuliani for the White House, saying, “He’s seen the results of supply-side economics firsthand — higher revenues from lower taxes.”
 This is a simplification of what supply-side economics was all about, and it threatens to undermine the enormous gains that have been made in economic theory and policy over the last 30 years. Perhaps the best way of preventing that from happening is to kill the phrase “supply-side economics” and give it a decent burial.
 It’s important to remember that at the time supply-side economics came into being, Keynesian economics  dominated macroeconomic thinking and economic policy in Washington. Among the beliefs held by the Keynesians of that era were these: budget deficits stimulate economic growth; the means by which the government raises revenue is essentially irrelevant economically; government spending and tax cuts affect the economy in exactly the same way through their impact on aggregate spending; personal savings is bad for economic growth; monetary policy is impotent; and inflation is caused by low unemployment, among other things.
 These beliefs led to many bad economic policies. In particular, they lay at the root of stagflation, that awful combination of high inflation and slow growth that bedeviled policy makers in the 1970s. Based on insights derived from the Nobel-winning economists Robert Mundell, Milton Friedman, James Buchanan and Friedrich Hayek, the supply-siders developed a new program based on tight money to stop inflation and cuts in marginal tax rates to stimulate growth.
 As the staff economist for  Representative Jack Kemp,  a Republican of New York, I helped devise the tax plan he co-sponsored with Senator William Roth, a Delaware Republican. Kemp-Roth was intended  to bring down the top statutory federal income tax rate to 50 percent from 70 percent and the bottom rate to 10 percent from 14 percent. We modeled this proposal on the Kennedy-Johnson tax cut of 1964, which lowered the top rate to 70 percent from 91 percent and the bottom rate to 14 percent from 20 percent.
 We believed that our tax plan would stimulate the economy to such a degree that the federal government would not lose $1 of revenue for every $1 of tax cut. Studies of the 1964 tax cut showed that about a third of it was recouped, and we expected similar results. Thus, contrary to common belief, neither Jack Kemp nor William Roth nor Ronald Reagan ever said that there would be no revenue loss associated with an across-the-board cut in tax rates. We just thought it wouldn’t lose as much revenue as predicted by the standard revenue forecasting models, which were based on Keynesian principles.
 Furthermore, our belief that we might get back a third of the revenue loss was always a long-run proposition. Even the most rabid supply-sider knew we would lose $1 of revenue for $1 of tax cut in the short term, because it took time for incentives to work and for people to change their behavior. When President Reagan proposed a version of Kemp-Roth in 1981, every revenue estimate produced by the Treasury showed large revenue losses from its enactment, based on standard models. The independent Congressional Budget Office produced figures that were almost identical.
 Moreover, we were adamant that only permanent cuts in marginal tax rates would stimulate the economy. We thought that temporary tax cuts, tax rebates, tax credits and such were economically worthless, and we strongly opposed them.
 Today, hardly any economist believes what the Keynesians believed in the 1970s and most accept the basic ideas of supply-side economics — that incentives matter, that high tax rates are bad for growth, and that inflation is fundamentally a monetary phenomenon. Consequently, there is no longer any meaningful difference between supply-side economics and mainstream economics.
 There is no question in my mind that we never could have overcome the stagflation of the 1970s as quickly or with as little pain as we did without the supply-side idea. But supply-side economics has done its job, just as Keynesian economics did in the 1930s. Those who campaign as its champions are fighting a fight long won — and it is time for supply-side rhetoric to go, with its essential truths embodied in mainstream economics and its perversions discarded for good.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/06/opinion/06bartlett.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline crustylicious

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Reading is fundamental, comprehension optional!
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 08:08:24 PM »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and the wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell
"The speaking in perpetual hyperbole is comely in nothing but love" Francis Bacon, Sr.
Voting is like driving a car- choose (D) to go forward- choose (R) to go backwards!
When all think alike, no one thinks very much. Albert Einstein

Offline SwampThing762

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2011, 08:10:10 PM »
crustafarian,

You have a sense of economic history, but i disagree with your conclusion that the Keynesian thing is the right thing to try at this time.     Government spending to create jobs is not the answer, as the amount spent per single job is generally many times more than the amount the private sector spends per single job.  This waste only amplifies debt.

As for the Obama dilemma, it is exactly that, a dilemma for the country.   At the end of the Bush 43 administration, the national debt was around $10 billion.   Obama has personally presided over the addition of an extra $4.6 trillion, and will be responsible for yet another $2.4 trillion.  That will give Obama the lasting legacy of being the president that increased the debt by 40%.   

The best solution for helping this economy is to fire the three stooges......Pelosi, Reid, and Obama.

ST762
We learned the true nature of Islam on 11 Sept 2001.

Show your appreciation for Islam....eat more bacon.

"Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam." (Not to us Lord, not us, but to your name give the glory)  -- Knights Templar motto

Offline Buck-Ridge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 95
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2011, 11:33:19 PM »
 I don't care what label you put on an economic theory, spending more than you have cannot possibly work. We don't have the luxury now of doing a Keynesian experiment because we are nearly bankrupt.Obama has been doing it for 2 years and he has doubled our debt.
 Buffet is right about one thing, I am paying 34% of my income just to income and Fica taxesand no one in this country would call me rich. !7% of his income sounds like the taxes that people at the poverty line pay.

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 02:31:25 AM »
   Some people, regardless of other considerations..can get caught up in a fixated idolization of an individual.  Certain personalities are just wired that way. Otherwise very bright people can be morphed into willing slaves grovelling at their idol's feet.  We can even witness that through observation of some of the bright contributors to this forum.
     When this prez was campaigning for the job, some folks truly believed he was superman..going to pay their mortgage and buy them a Cadillac.  This brand of idolatry crosses all social, intellectual and financial boundaries.
     
       We saw the same strange psychosis at work in the highly advanced nation of Germany, in the 1930s !
 
    If Warren Buffet in his rapturous idolatry, truly (as he claims) is not paying enough taxes, somebody please send him this website...     http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 02:37:41 AM »
Keynesian economics is an abject failure.  In rare cases it may help, such as if one state out of the 50 (not 57)  were in financial difficulty. 
     But for a national economy to have maxed out all their credit cards..then to actually believe the only answer is to take out another credit card ...in the kid's names...is pure madness.
  Soros WANTS to break the US !  .....When will you guys get that !
 
   BTW:  Obviously, Warren Buffet is not concerned with paying his "fair share", since he freely admitted he has not been doing so..but taking advantage of every possible loophole.  Clearly, he just wants to force others into his Idolatry.
 
  .......NO thank you Warren... I already have a God..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online JustaShooter

  • Trade Count: (23)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 03:53:54 AM »
IRS data is AGI...adjusted gross income....Top 1400 earners in USA had zero AGI...Top 400 corps zeroed tax liability...probably both got credits. IRS data is skewed to be favorable to wealth class and for the gullible consumption....

And once again, TM7 is either out-right lying or is misrepresenting the truth.  According to http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/09inalcr.pdf in 2009, of the 235,413 taxpayers who earned $1 million or more in 2009, 1,470 of them paid no taxes (for the record, that is 0.6% of those making over $1 million).  That's a bit different than the "top 1400 earners in USA had zero AGI".   

Given that the economy all but collapsed during that time period, is it any wonder that some people who put their money at risk lost a bunch?  In fact, lost enough that it zeroed out their earnings from other areas. Because that is what AGI means, folks.  Don't let TM make you think it is some magical number that lets rich people skip paying their fair share of taxes.  It simply means income less deductions.  Not credits, deductions.  If you pay taxes you know what this means.  Take all of your income, subtract your personal allowances, deductions whether itemized or not, and that's your AGI.  It just so happens that deductions can be losses from investments, sale of property, etc.

(Oh, and one more thing, ever notice that TM never posts a link to any sources for his outlandish claims?  And if he does include a source, it is some fringe group website?  People, pay attention! Do your research, don't just let people spoon feed you lies!  Don't trust the claims made by others - heck, don't trust me - fact check me, make sure I'm not lying to you, make sure my sources aren't fabricated!)

Just a Shooter (who is tired of TM and others lies and fabrications)
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

Offline magooch

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6624
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 04:39:52 AM »
What I don't trust is rich people who talk about not paying enough taxes--period.  They are either liars, crazy, or both.
 
This country's financial problems are not complicated.  Government at all levels and especially the federal government spends too much.  All the theories and tax schemes can't remedy that.
Swingem

Online JustaShooter

  • Trade Count: (23)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 04:53:59 AM »
According to the theory if the economy is down a trillion dollars then it needs a government stimulus injection, but that government stimulus does not have to be a trillion dollars. According to the theory a percentage of the needed boost is all you have to do, say 1% and once, say $600 to $800 billion is in the hands of the people they will go out, pay bills, buy cars, houses, do repairs, and everywhere they go to spend money those service providers and retailers will have more money to spend. $800 billion in the hands of regular people will become recycled dollars. Every dollar they spend with a retailer or service provider is going to be re-spent by the people who get those dollars, and the people getting that money will spend and with business getting better, more supplies will be needed more workers needed, and eventually the economic sputtering engine will take hold, get into a rhythm and start running smoothly.

The big problem here is that we've already spent $1.2 trillion in stimulus, nearly double what is proposed here, and all we did is hasten the debt crisis.  We have tested Keynesian theory, and the results are plain for all to see - the "great recession" is now entering a double-dip phase consisting of rampant unemployment, weakening dollar, rising energy costs.  Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have all the answers, but what is clear is that hundreds of billions in deficit spending is NOT the answer.

Just a Shooter
Christian, Husband, Father
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
IANAL and anything I say is not intended to be nor should it be taken as legal advice.

Offline SwampThing762

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2367
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 07:33:32 AM »
TM7's post #2 assumes wealth and income are one in the same, and they are not.   TM7's notion of overtaxing the rich, a timeless liberal tactic for promotion of class warfare, only applies to income.  Income creates future wealth, not what a person already has in possession.    Therefore, his whole argument is flawed and inaccurate.    I will give a correct statistical analysis of how the taxes in this country are paid:

The top 1% pays 38% of all income taxes and earns 20% of all U.S. Adjusted Gross Income.

The top 5% pays 58.7% of all income taxes and earns 34.7% of U.S. Adjusted Gross Income.

The top 25% pays 86% of all income tax.

This is based on IRS data in individual income taxes for 2008.

More recently, 50% of American households pay no federal income tax.    Speaking of shared sacrifice and a balanced approach, how about telling them to pony up and pay their taxes?  However, the liberals in the USA do not want to hear of this idea, as that means that they have to give up their ill-gotten gains that were confiscated from working people by the looters to give to the moochers.

By the way, to the libs here at GBO, when was the last time you got a job from a poor person, or welfare recipient?

ST762

 
Flawed self-serving conservative logic.
 
TM7 assumes % wealth owned is in direct correlation to income, gains, and other revenues.  IRS data is AGI...adjusted gross income....Top 1400 earners in USA had zero AGI...Top 400 corps zeroed tax liability...probably both got credits. IRS data is skewed to be favorable to wealth class and for the gullible consumption....
 
45 years of de-regulation and tax cuts have brought us to this economic point,,,i.e. national bankruptcy, recession, and 18% unemployment...Most of the jobs created in the past 12 years have been in China, India, Vietnam, etc....nice, huh?.. ::)
 
Crustafarian has posted some good articles....one point is that jobs are not actually created by de-regulation and tax cuts...there is about a zero correlation for that in reality (except jobs created overseas.. ::) ).  What creates jobs is a fair market place and plans, products, and something somebody wants...this rules out Keneysian military econmies such as ours for long term survival.
 
Buffet and Soros are not Marxists...they're monopoly Capitalists....they are hedge fund operators...they make $ betting against or for items of national importance to the 'peasants' of a country.  Buffet in his old age has apparently developed a conscience.
 
...TM7

TM7 makes a ridiculous claim about flawed self-serving conservative logic.   TM7,  the lower 50% pay no taxes.  If you want more revenue to the government, shake them down, not the people who pay taxes.

During the Carter years, you had record unemployment, skyrocketing gas prices, and interest rates in the range of 25%.  A conservative named Ronald Reagan was elected to the Oval Office, slashed and burned through JOB-KILIING REGULATIONS, cut taxes and interest rates, and we went into an unprecedented time of economic prosperity.   When there are more people working and buying goods and services, there are more revenues going to the government.

Fast Forward to the early 21st century.   The dot.com bubble bursts, and you have a minor recession, and then a series of smaller economic downturns.  The Bush tax cuts blunted the edge of that recession,as people then had more money (greater supply to people who don't grasp basic economics) to demand more services, which keeps an economy moving, and people in jobs.

After September 2001, we started the GWOT.   It became a large expenditure that it began to contribute to the national debt.

The whole TARP mess started under the Clinton adminsitration, when he signed legislation repealing the Glass-Steagall Act and allowing commercial deposit banks and investment banks to merge, and other legislation, forgive me if I cannot remember the name, requiring banks to issue mortgages to people who obviously could not qualify for one.  The Feds threaten banks to issue them if they want to continue to receive federal funds, and say, by the way, Fannie and Freddie will insure the loans.  The house of cards is being built.

Furthermore, companies issue these "derivative" securities based on the worthless mortgages.    Companies buy them, and now you have major financial powerhouses falling like flies when the house of cards built with worthless paper comes crashing down.  Bush 43 rushes to bail out the banks, an act I believe he never should have done, and left a debt of approximately $10 trillion.

After Obama took office, he continued the bailouts of the banks, and GM, and Chrysler, and his union buddies.   He says that he must do this, yet he disagreed with Bush on everything, and continues Bush policies.   Companies are still closing doors as banks are calling in loans trying to shore up capital reserves to stay in business.

After Obama took office, he continues his spending spree.  He says we have to pass this  $787 billion stimulus bill, as it will create millions of jobs, and unemployment will not exceed 8%.   The money is spent, and unemployment hits 8.6% right away, and continues to climb past 9%, where it is now.   

In 2009, the Obamacrats pass Obamacare, which kills even more jobs as it increases taxes on businesses which create jobs.  To what end, you ask?  To give insurance to illegal aliens who already have access to the best healthcare in the world, as well as the working uninsured who receive care (which they never pay for) under EMTALA.   Obamacare adds another $500 trillion to the debt because it guts Medicaid and Medicare, and never addresses the root causes of high healthcare costs.

In 2010, the Obamacrats extend unemployment benefits from the already ridiculous ninety nine weeks another several months without requiring people to document a job search, creating a de facto welfare state.   

Currently, the national debt is 14.62 trillion, 40% of which belongs to Obama, and he gets the credit for another $2.4 trillion. That is a hell of a legacy for a president.

BTW, Obama is a rich guy, we listened to him, and see what it got us...............

ST762
We learned the true nature of Islam on 11 Sept 2001.

Show your appreciation for Islam....eat more bacon.

"Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam." (Not to us Lord, not us, but to your name give the glory)  -- Knights Templar motto

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 07:48:42 AM »
  Throwing more money at any leftist/liberal administration is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline mcwoodduck

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7983
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 07:39:11 AM »
swampthing:
Quote
The whole TARP mess started under the Clinton adminsitration, when he signed legislation repealing the Glass-Steagall Act and allowing commercial deposit banks and investment banks to merge, and other legislation, forgive me if I cannot remember the name, requiring banks to issue mortgages to people who obviously could not qualify for one.  The Feds threaten banks to issue them if they want to continue to receive federal funds, and say, by the way, Fannie and Freddie will insure the loans.  The house of cards is being built.

..Glass-Steagal Act was a regulation going back to the last boondoggle period..you know the kind that self-styled conservatives want repealed...It controlled banks from speculative endeavors like derivative and other 'paper' gaming the system...Interesting to note that this repeal was championed by none other than Congressmen Phil Gramm, GOP, who rammed it thru Congress and Clinton signed it..the rest is history. The idea that Gov giving out money or making available funds is questionable,,,,but to give or make availabel funds without strings attached is even more questionable....and what those strings are should be the function of our elected reps.... ::)
 
..TM7
GOP and Republican do not mean conservitive.  Same as Democrat does not mean liberal or moron.  Most of the time it does but the terms are not mutually exclusive.  Sometimes you get a Moron Republican.  RHINO  Sometimes you get a liberal Republican, like bloomberg in NYC.  Complete liberal but figured he could only win on the Republican ticket and won.
Again if people did their research into what they were buying and did not rely on a safety net from the government not to loose money or worse think they will have the same outcome as everyone else and there is no way to loose.  Had we not had stacks of rules and regulations that give a false sense of security we may still have had the dirivitives as a security but NO ONE would habve bought them.  If it takes more than a sentance or two to explain what the security is, you don't want it. 
Stock- You are a part owner in the company or asset.  The worth being what the market value of the company or asset is either worth or the earnings of the company and assets. 
Mutual Fund- pooling money to hold stocks in a sector of the economy - Medical, Technical, Manufacturing, ....
401K- A retirement plan that holds your money in different mutula funds.
Dirivitive- is ... Well I really can not explain what it is, as it is based off the proformance of other securities.  Basically a bet, not a real security as I understand security.  and you can have dirivitives off of dirivitives. 
 

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 01:30:59 PM »
  Have any of you resident liberals given to Warren Buffet the website which shows where he can donate more of his billions to the US government ?
  In case you missed it; here it is:  http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html
 
    Please see that he gets it...Obama has more 'stimulation' in the works !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31040
  • Gender: Male
Re: Listen to the rich guy............
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 01:41:06 PM »
  TM;  In your post #29 you said this:
 
   " Note to moderators....you got a poster here with a real chip on his shoulder"....TM7
******************************************************************************
   Perhaps I am not "sensitive" enough, but I see no chip.  Please be more specific, don't resort to general whining.. ;)   :D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)