Best Conical molds for Elk and a CVA Wolf?

[mlnewb]

 

Hey all!

I'm looking at casting my own slugs for a CVA Wolf and am interested in the best molds for Elk, deer and Ball ammo.  All of my research points toward around 300gr for deer and I'd like around 450gr for elk.

Who has experience with taking down elk with their own cast conicals and a CVA Wolf??

[equinoxbuilders]

Hi Mlnewb,

Lead conicals in a 1/28 twist?  OK...?
Even if you find a combination that is accurate, I would think the lead fouling and the amount of cleaning needed at the range will make what could be fun target practice into a nightmare chore.  Remember, this is an inexpensive Wolf barrel.  Still made in Spain and very accurate, but not of the quality of the Optima/Altima stainless barrels.  I have a 50 wolf carbine and though very accurate, it fouls quicker than my other muzzleloaders.
I just wanted to add this point.  I use the CVA Powerbelts, because of everything I've tried, these are the most accurate and I can usually get in about 5-6 shots before I clean.  With lead, that number drops to 2 or 3 shots between cleanings.
I'd also use the Barnes MZ Expanders. 
I'll defer to someone else for suggestions of lead conicals in a Wolf.
Happy shooting

[mlnewb]

As far as the 1 in 28 twist.... it's quite appropriate for conicals.  300gr to 500gr being quite accurate but 500gr being too heavy for the wolf.

Not really interested in pre-made slugs at all.  I'm a poor boy so it's economy or nothing.  Couldn't afford to shoot as needed paying a buck a shot for the slug.   

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

No problem shooting lead conicals in your Wolf. Bullshop or No excuse bullets would have something you need. There really isnt a good over the counter so to speak bullet mold made these days for a .50cal muzzle loader.  The LEE R.E.A.L mold might do you ok in 300gr. You should also use felt wads between the bullet/powder charge as it helps seal up gasses.

Lead fouling is no more trouble than plastic/copper fouling, they are all cleaned the same way. How many shots you get before having to clean all depends on how tight the bullets load and what dirty powder you are using.

For some over the counter lead conicals, look to the TC Maxi ball, hornady great plains. These shot pretty good in my CVA's when i used them.

Lyman has the Great Plains mold but be prepared to shell out some bucks on their molds.

[equinoxbuilders]

are you dead set on conicals?  I use TC Maxi Hunters in my .54 Renegade Carbine, 1/48 twist.  I haven't tried any conicals in the .50 Wolf.  Mainly because it was purchased for my 11 year old and I'm keeping the recoil down by shooting 190gr+/- bullets out of it.  Trying to shoot on the cheap?  how about ordering MMP .50 sabots and molding your own .45 bullets for them.  Better BC, thus better trajectory and downrange retained energy.     it's a thought.  Although, the MMP plastic sabots may be a bit too tight for a Wolf.
Elk?  could be some longer shots..  May want to look at a longer smaller cal. bullet inside a sabot.

http://www.mmpsabots.com/

Also, you got me thinking, so I've been searching the internet.  It is possible the Wolf was produced with two different size diam. barrels.  .500-.501 and .498.499,  So, a Lyman .503 casting may not fit.  Double check your bore before loading up on gear.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

.503 will fit both the tighter bored cva and the .500" bore. Pure lead is very soft and just will require a short starter and a wack to get it down. The Lee REAL mold would probably be the best bet.

[mlnewb]

Thanks Bigblock.. 

The Lee R-E-A-L mold in the 300gr range is what I was considering for deer/antelope sized game.

You're correct about the larger bullet molds being non-existent for muzzleloaders... I'm ok with forking out some up-front money for quality tools, just not into paying someone else for 'parts' so I can hunt or practice.  Lead is readily available

I'm still looking for someone who has experience with the Wolf and Elk.  Not interested in taking shots further off than 100 yards with Elk.   Thinking 450gr would be a good weight but need more input

Thanks everyone!

[mlnewb]

Yes Equinox... I'm dead set on conicals and not interested saboted .45 slugs or any other commercial product, thanks.

The terminal performance of lead conicals is proven and will do the job I need on anything in north america.... quite well. 

Oh, and your 1 in 48 twist rate is much better suited for the lighter bullets you're throwing.  The Wolf has a 1 in 28 twist which is much better for slugs around 300 gr and up.  I've done my homework and math... just looking for real world references to relate it to.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Actually that 300gr conical will plant an elk on its butt!  I killed a cow elk in 2008 with 80gr pyrodex rs and a 225gr round ball at 140 yards and she only made it 60 yards. Thats with a simple round ball with very little fl lbs of energy behind it. That 300gr conical will have triple the energy my ball had at that distance. Don't be afraid to use it.

[equinoxbuilders]

keep us posted.  Since I have a Wolf, I'd be real interested in hearing from experience as well.

[james]

I've taken about a dozen elk, two mule deer and several white-tails with the 385 gr. Hornaday Great Plains which looks a lot like the REAL. It has a hollow point and hollow base.   But I was shooting them in a TC Hawken.
It does shoot like a rainbow at long range and wind will affect it.   My brother who shoots only round balls called my bullets "high plains drifters".   I would like to find a comparable mold for that bullet.
I lost a cow elk last year after hitting it with a 330 gr power belt out of an Encore, that I think I would have recovered if I had used the Great Plains.   

[mlnewb]

I've spent quite a few hours of research since I posted this question.... interesting info.

A great many of the hunts described, that used around 300gr or less on an elk, had a lot of the same similarities.   No exit wound, tiny to non-existent blood trail and a lot of lost animals.

Now... I've noticed that a lot of folks really aren't that accurate with guns.  Sad but true.  Being that as it is, I can understand why there are folks that say 300gr is enough for elk and many more that say it isn't.

Personally...  I'm leaning toward the Lee real mold in 320gr for Deer and Antelope.  Pretty much sold on that one after last night's research.

Even though I'm VERY accurate with rifles (and pistols) I don't like gambling.  I'll be looking for a 450gr conical mold for the Wolf.  Even out to 150yrds a hit with a 450gr conical is going to make an Elk wobbly.. if not go down right there. (Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement).

Does anyone know if Mould making companies will send you some pre-casts to try out?

Thanks for all the input.. this has been quite interesting.

[wiley]

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
 
These  folks don't do samples that I know of but have good selection of bullet molds in the .50 class.

[mlnewb]

Thanks Wiley!

I'll have to contact their customer service and see...
They do indeed have some interesting offerings in .500 assuming they fit the Wolf well.  New research subject.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/500-350-REAL.jpg An extra 30 grains on the Lee mold.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/500-445.jpg 445gr sounds about right.  Looks ok.  Again, more research.




Oh... forgot to mention that I'm in Colorado... no sabots or scopes during ML season...

[mlnewb]

It does shoot like a rainbow at long range and wind will affect it.   My brother who shoots only round balls called my bullets "high plains drifters".

I'm sure they're not THAT bad in the wind.... ever shoot a .223 100yrds with a 'faint' hint of a breeze?  LOL.  Massive drifting

150yrd PBR  Well within my ability.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

heavier bullets wont be affected by the wind as much as a light weight bullet. Especially when it comes to round balls.

Muzzle loaders are old technology, even with todays bullets and powders, wind plays a big factor over longer ranges.

[BCall]

Few days late to the topic here, but have you looked at the Lyman great plains and maxi-ball molds? The Great plains goes 395 grains and the maxi is 370. They can be found used for alot less than new. The muzzleloader molds don't seem to keep the high price of the other ones. And they would be alot cheaper than a new NEI mold.
 
NEI has some very interesting designs across the board, but I would not recommend them at all. I have seen numerous poor molds in the last couple of years and there is no customer service. I have several molds made when Walt was still cutting them, and they are great molds. But with the pictures I have seen of recent stuff, I would stay far away. Along with the lack of customer service, to out right refusal to return money for faulty molds. Good luck if you try them.

[mlnewb]

Awesome!  Thanks for the heads up

I was thinking of staying away from the near 500gr slugs (Wolf is rated for 400gr max) but..... I dunno, what's the math?

The Wolf has a 150gr max powder charge... of which I wouldn't be using more than 90gr with a heavy slug. (Even 90 would kick pretty dang hard as that's a 6.5lb gun or so. heh)   


There wouldn't be any problems staying below 90gr charge with a 500gr slug... would there?


LOL
 
 Oh... it reads 395.. not 495 LOL    My mistake   Still.. i guess it's a valid question for other molds.  These sound great used.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

mlnewb, i ordered a Lee 320gr R.E.A.L mold yesterday night. When it comes in i will do some casting and give them a try in my Wolf and report back to you on it.

www.trackofthewolf.com has great prices on the double mold. I only paid $24 and some change shipped. Their shipping rates are very affordable unlike some other places i tried to order from. Natchez wanted $17 to ship the mold! I was like.... but ... but... but that's more than what they charge for the mold it self! 

[mlnewb]

mlnewb, i ordered a Lee 320gr R.E.A.L mold yesterday night. When it comes in i will do some casting and give them a try in my Wolf and report back to you on it.

www.trackofthewolf.com has great prices on the double mold. I only paid $24 and some change shipped. Their shipping rates are very affordable unlike some other places i tried to order from. Natchez wanted $17 to ship the mold! I was like.... but ... but... but that's more than what they charge for the mold it self! 

ROTFLMAO!  Gotta love the internet.

Awesome!  I'm looking forward to your reports as that's a decent enough design for a hunting bullet and a great medium-heavy slug.  Thanks so much

[moto357]

if you look in the muzzleloader forum i've posted some of my results with big conicals in my wolf.  its not "stock" anymore since i've changed a few things, but as far as what it shoots.. over the years and many many range sessions, never had a problem with heavy bullets.  also, as long as they are sized right i can shoot quite a few before any cleaning, sometimes not even till the end of a range session.  feel free to PM me with any other questions. 
 
also, if you are still looking for a mold let me know.  years ago i bought an NEI 480.  with pure lead it cast about 495gr and had a bevel base.  last winter i turned it down in my lathe to take off the bevel base, so its now a flat base.  i forget off the top of my head what they weigh now, i think around 460 or 470?  the mold shows some signs of use but if you want i'll sell it to you at a fair price

[mlnewb]

Ok... So, I missed the sale at Cabela's for $140.   Now I see this one...
(I figured I'd consider getting one w/scope for regular season. I can always remove it temp...)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Black-Powder/Rifles|/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104533380/CVA174-Wolf-BluedBlack-50-Caliber-Rifle-with-Scope/1231274.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-black-powder-rifles%2Fcva%2F_%2FN-1100200%2B1000003166%2FNe-1000003166%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104533380%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104792580%253Bcat104701680%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

Question....   It says 28" barrel instead of 24" and 6.25lbs instead of 6.6lbs.
Is Cabela's getting sloppy or is this a different wolf?  I'd LOVE the extra 4" on the barrel and I can always make it heavier.


Moto357  Thanks a bunch.. I'll be looking up that info later.  I'll let you know if I'm interested in that mold.  Your wolf is older, yes?  Would the barrel dimensions be different than one I purchase now?  Not looking to having tight fitting conicals.

[moto357]

all of my molds cast slightly over-size, then i run them through a 501 lee sizer after lubing them.  it cleans the lube also, but makes for a good fit.  when i cut off the end of the barrel i used it to make a sizer to get it just a hair under size, but with the riflings so the OD of the bulle remains at .506.  they load real easy and i imagine accuracy will only be improved with it already engaging the rifling.  my main purpose for this is with my gas checked bullets.  havent had a chance to shoot any like this, but plan to soon and see what comes of it

[mlnewb]

Hmmm... hadn't thought about a resizer.  Crud.

Pure lead and ww alloy slugs would mic differently from the same mold... true?


Shouldn't be too much longer before I can pick up a wolf..... I see they went back on sale at Cabela's again

[moto357]

they do cast at a slightly different size, but a cheap Lee .501 sizer is all you need and with pure lead all is well.  this is what i size all my big bullets too and i can load and shoot a full session without wiping the bore.  also to note, i use pyrodex P and nothing fancier