Here is a tough one: which would be better.

[mannyrock]

 
OK Guys,
 
   Here is a really tough one.  If you were going to buy just one rifle for everything rugged outdoors, which of the following would be better:
 
   1.   A used lighweight pre-64 Winchester Model 70, in VG condition, with the original walnut stock.  (cost approx $950) OR
 
   2.   A new Howa 1500 with a Hogue overmold stock  (cost approx $430).
 
   The Winchester obviously has one of the most reliable, rugged, and best designed actions ever invented, including the claw extractor.   The problem is, that there are almost no aftermarket things for it whatsoever.  If you want a synthetic stock, then there only two real choices:  the Ramline (junk) at $90 or a  McMillan at (gulp) $500.    Bell & Carlson lists one that "will substantially fit", but they are for the regular rifle, not the lightweight, leaving a big gap under the barrel, and folks report lots of problems trying to get them to fit. 
 
   The Howa, on the other hand, is just a push feed, medium quality action, with an AR-15 type extractor.  But, it comes with a great synthetic stock, and if you want a walnut one, they are pretty easy to find.  Brownell's now carries a small magazine extender that replaces the bottom metal, and increases the number of rounds by three or four, depending on caliber.  It also comes in a true short action.
 
   Though neither is really very light, I think they weigh about the same.
 
   Any thoughts between these two?  Really a question of whether you choose a superior action over a lower quality with more flexibility.
 
Thanks, Mannyrock
 
   
 
 
 

[charles p]

Imagine asking us that same question 25 years from now.

[Lloyd Smale]

i know what id take. the 70 hands down. About like asking me if id rather have a 59 corvette or a 2011 impala

[Hooker]

Hogue stock = Flimsy tupperware junk

I'll take the Model 70 now and 25 yrs down the road

Pat

[Graybeard]

Actually I'd not get either. I'd get a Remingtgon.

[huntswithdogs]

The Howa. For an all around, gonna be out there no matter what, I prefer plastic over wood.

HWD
 

[parkergunshop]

Note, with the Hogue and Bell and Carson stocks the low end stocks are pillar bedded and not so easy to work with when glas bedding, and they flex too much.  The full aluminum block stocks cost over $200.00 but are the way to go.
Howa cannot put a premium synthetic stock on a $430 rifle.

Laminated wood is better than any of the under $200.00 synthetic stocks from a strength and stability standpoint when glas bedded. The Hogue stock is not a light weight option by any means no lighter than a stream lined sporter stock in laminated wood.

However, if I were buying a rifle for a life time of use, I would opt for the Model 70 hands down and glas bed the action and the first two inches of the barrel in front of the receiver.  But for that price $900  I could custom build on  a Mauser action with a premium barrel and a premium synthetic stock.

[George Foster]

The Pre64 Model 70 hands down!!  There is no way I would choose a Rem700 over a Pre64 Model 70 especially one of the SPS's.  I feel the Howa's are a nice rifle but they are no Model 70.

[Lloyd Smale]

swampy you look a bit differnt today

Actually I'd not get either. I'd get a Remingtgon.

[Graybeard]

Ya know I like Remington rifles as much as he does tho unlike him don't claim they are perfection personafied. Still I own no other brand of bolt action rifle. I've used Remingtons for so long and am so used to the operation of the Remington safety I wouldn't even consider buying another brand that had a safety that operated differently which for me rules out the Winchester and Ruger bolt guns.

The Howa/Weatherby rifles do have a similar safety so I could make do with them but they are heavy as a boat anchor and in the rounds I chose to use I just don't need the weight.

I gotta admit tho if Remington continues with the non adjustable X Mark Pro trigger they are gonna lose me as a customer. I'll prolly wind up replacing the triggers on my newest rifles that have it with after market triggers and doing so just makes them more expensive than is reasonable.

I might try to pick up some older ones before they went to that trigger but am about done buying new Remington rifles.

[john keyes]

depends on what you want to do with it.....sure the Winchester rocks but are you really gonna hunt with it?  I've had a few safe queens and got rid of em.  Let somebody who really appreciates them rub on em with a cloth and show em the love they need.  Meanwhile give me one I can scratch up and not have a heart attack.
 
Not to say I haven't had my share of vintage stuff out in the woods but the nicer it is makes things a little tougher.  I just wish gun companies would go back to oiled stocks.

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont have all remintons but probably half my rifles are remingtons so there hands down my favorites but lifes to boring sticking to just one brand. Hows a guy going to get burned and have something to bitch about! Heck bill you can buy an aftermarket trigger for around a 100 bucks so why worry about it. Sure a 100 bucks doesnt grow on trees but if you can justify buying more then a couple rifles your sure not worried about paying a bit more to get what you really want. Personaly id like a hybrid. I like the new controlled round action from a winchester. The stock would be a winchester too as the featherweight stock to me is one of the prettiest and it fits me like a glove second choise would be the old remington classic. Then id want a remington barrel and a ruger tang safety. top that off with a savage accutrigger or a safely tuned remington that is crisp as glass and right around 2lbs. Bottom line is remington and winchester both make good bolts. Rugers are dammed good guns to especially the new hawkeyes but ive just had to many poor shooting rugers to be falling down in love with them. That is unless there a #1 which to me is the classiest looking gun a guy can buy at about any price. 

Ya know I like Remington rifles as much as he does tho unlike him don't claim they are perfection personafied. Still I own no other brand of bolt action rifle. I've used Remingtons for so long and am so used to the operation of the Remington safety I wouldn't even consider buying another brand that had a safety that operated differently which for me rules out the Winchester and Ruger bolt guns.

The Howa/Weatherby rifles do have a similar safety so I could make do with them but they are heavy as a boat anchor and in the rounds I chose to use I just don't need the weight.

I gotta admit tho if Remington continues with the non adjustable X Mark Pro trigger they are gonna lose me as a customer. I'll prolly wind up replacing the triggers on my newest rifles that have it with after market triggers and doing so just makes them more expensive than is reasonable.

I might try to pick up some older ones before they went to that trigger but am about done buying new Remington rifles.

[parkergunshop]

Bottom line on triggers is that it is easy to get a safe two pound pull with the after market triggers:  And some will do quite a bit better than that down to 12 ounces and less
Timney,  Dayton-Traister, Huber, Jard, Shilen, Basix, Boyds, Jewell
Any of these triggers are better made than most of the current factory triggers except for the Savage Accura-Trigger, including the Remington Mark X Pro with does not list its weight of pull adjustment range as the others do in Brownell's catalog.
Jard, Basix, Shilen Jewell and Timney all make triggers to fit Remington 700, 7 & XP100 actions
Just looked at a  Jard Trigger on a 98 Mauser, 12 ounce pull and as smooth as glass, and you can bounce the rifle butt up and down four inches on the work bench and it holds.
And the factory trigger on a Model 70 Winchester is easy to modify for a 2 pound or less pull and be safe as it is one of the simpler designs and not made with a cheap sheet metal housing.   And no question the model 70 safety is one of the best in the gun business.
 
 

[XD40SC]

I have several pre 64 model 70's. Nothing better is being made. Reliable, accurate, durable and as stated earlier; great for trigger work. Mine are set at 2.5 lbs.

[tuck2]

My Win Mdl 70 was purchased in 1952 and is still shooting fine after shooting pronghorn, mule deer ,elk and some other unwonted critters, but I also have a accurate Howa 1500 with a laminated thumb hole varmint stock that is used for prairie dog shooting.  With  either rifle glass bed the action, free float the barrel and adjust the trigger. Pass on the plastic Howa stock and get  wood.  You could also look at the  wood stock Weatherby made by Howa which I have in the 7 MM Rem Mag round.  Over the years, Im 75 now I have seen  some junk and some  fine rifle made by all the gun manufactures.  I like wood stocks but the better grade synthetics [sp]? can take more beating than wood and are better if most hunting is in rain and snow. So which brand is better for you ?, I dont know.  But most of the people I know have ended up with a number of rifles.

[Savage .250]

You know what you have with that pre-64, model 70.   

[gunnut69]

Guys you all know I love the M70, but the Howa is a way better designed action. The M70 action is very poor at handling gas released by a pieced primer of a casehead seperation. The triggers are adjustable and sorely need it.. I'd take the Howa and replace the miserable stock with a good lightened laminate.. If I could have two rifles the M70 would come with me but as an investment. I hunt with M70's all the time but there are better designs. Remingtons are great rifles and their barrels seem to want to shoot as an average but they replaced the trigger that did have a flaw with one that was not as useable.. I would bet they will be changing it if they don't sell. Remington is not a company run by shooters any more, it's run by executives.. If I only could have a single rifle it would likely be mauser. A 98 is likely the best designed rifle I've handled. It has almost no design flaws and by selecting models one can eleminate the materials faults... What caliber(s) do you guys think would be best...?

[parkergunshop]

Gunnut69,
I agree with your analysis of the Pre64 Model 70 it is a great classic rifle and somewhat of a collectors item, but has it flaws.
The gas handling for the Model 70 copies that of the Enfield and Springfield it has features of both military actions.   I modify Enfields and Springfields  by drilling another gas relief hole on the left side of the receiver lined up with the port in the bolt head.   And for the Enfields ala Weatherby drill three gas relief ports in the bolt body inline with the right side of the loading port.
I perfer 98 Mauser based actions for standard 30-06 head size chamberings and the big Enfield Actions for the Magnum chamberings modified as above.  Most of the military 98 actions made after 1930 except for some of the Spanish La Coruna actions are of good materials and well heat treated.  I really like the VZ24, S42, BYF, BNZ, marked actions, probably the best made of the lot but maybe a little soft sometimes are the DWM actions made for various countries including Brazil. 
Most modern actions are made cheaper, not better than the old 98 Mauser that includes all the various model 70's and the Howa.
 
I have both Mark X and Santa Barbara Mauser modern commercial actions in my collection,  The Santa Barbara action rockwell tested at a 42 on the C scale which is about perfect for the modern alloy steel it is made of,  The Mark X also uses a modern alloy steel.  Remington 700 actions and bolts I have tested generally fall in the 30-40 rockwell C range with one bolt coming in at R 29.
 
 

[Empty Quiver]

Are you a pride of ownership person? The answer is obvious. Are you looking for a tool to kill game? Both are fine.


I'm going out on a limb and say if you have to ask, get the Howa. Spend extra money on a nice scope. Five years from now you will still have a nice scope and a perfectly good rifle to either trade or keep as a backup to a <'64 M70 you have decided you can't live without.


I just can't see that the action is all that. It was awsome for the time it was released, many others have caught up IMO. To buy an old M70 and toss the stock? Makes no sense. Buy a new M70 with a plastic stock. By all acounts it's awfully close to the classic.

[JPShelton]

 A Pre '64 Model 70 is a gun that you can use for free, in the sense that they will probably always fetch more in the future than you pay for them today.
 
I doubt if a HOWA will ever have that kind of enthusiastic following.
 
But what in the heck do I know?  The only ceterfire rifles I shoot are a hotrodded Marlin 336 and a Remington M-721.
 
JP

[KAYR1]

Obviously, from an investment and prde of ownership standpoint, the Model 70 wins the race. If pure economy adn value for your hunting dollar is the sole factor, I would go with a Savage. I have lots of high-dollar bolt guns from a variety of manufacturers that cannot shoot with my Savages. pretty? no..Great trigger and sub MOA accurate? Absoultely

[Dave in WV]

Do you want a safe queen or will you use the M70 in bad weather and lessen the value over time?

[45-70.gov]

i would spend the $950


and get  the  2 HOWAs......in stainless


in fact...thats what  i did


love  my 308
my  375 ruger   HOWA  is my new  toy
now  all  i need is a 223 stainless  HOWA


so.............HOW'A  do you  like that answer

[Bart Solo]

Looking at the subject I have to ask "better" at what? 
There is a reason the Winchester is valued at $950.  It is a classic and has passed the time when it should be out in the mud and rain.  It is in very good condition.  Personally I love a nice investment.  I would buy the Winchester.  Propery maintained it is only going to go up in value. 
The Howa is a good modern rifle.  The Howa the basis of a lot of expensive custom rifles. That is why Legacy Sports sells so many barrelled actions. For the price paid you are basically buying the action. The stock is secondary. You could spend $500 on the McMillian stock and have a rifle you will use year in and year out for decades.  The total price would be about the same as the Winchester model 70.  In 20 years the Winchester would be worth a lot more. The Howa wont appreciate much, but if you are looking for a rifle you can use year in and year out, buy the Howa and spend the money on a stock upgrade.
 

[Rock Home Isle]

i know what id take. the 70 hands down. About like asking me if id rather have a 59 corvette or a 2011 impala

I'm such a Model 70 fan....you have no idea. And if you have a line on a pre-64 in very good condition...Yeah Baby!! Hands Down that's the one. 

[Swampman]

Actually I'd not get either. I'd get a Remingtgon.

Me too and I wouldn't have a Howa for free.

[piero]

Ya know I like Remington rifles as much as he does tho unlike him don't claim they are perfection personafied. Still I own no other brand of bolt action rifle. I've used Remingtons for so long and am so used to the operation of the Remington safety I wouldn't even consider buying another brand that had a safety that operated differently which for me rules out the Winchester and Ruger bolt guns.

The Howa/Weatherby rifles do have a similar safety so I could make do with them but they are heavy as a boat anchor and in the rounds I chose to use I just don't need the weight.

I gotta admit tho if Remington continues with the non adjustable X Mark Pro trigger they are gonna lose me as a customer. I'll prolly wind up replacing the triggers on my newest rifles that have it with after market triggers and doing so just makes them more expensive than is reasonable.

I might try to pick up some older ones before they went to that trigger but am about done buying new Remington rifles.

Well said, greybeard, I like the older 700s but the new ones are just a whole new rifle to me.  My buddie's .270 w/syn stock and pencil barrel seems rather flimsy as well as having a sub-par trigger(as compared to the older ones).  Another friend of mine has a 710 that seems to surpass the quality of the latter.

[Don Fischer]

WOW! $950 for a 48 yr old factory rifle in the origional stock and VG condition.

[Swampman]

I guess some folks don't understand that Model 700s come in different grades.  Same exact action & barrel contur but different finish.

[Bigeasy]

Make mine a "State Of The Art" rig, circa 1958..
 
Larry