Author Topic: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70  (Read 2260 times)

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Offline BKS

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Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« on: August 25, 2011, 06:48:17 PM »
 I have decided to hunt with my new H&R 45-70 handi, 22" barrell, this year. I will be hunting in southern arkansas bottomland. I will be hunting from a ground blind, on public land. I want to shoot the deer through the shoulders, hoping to eliminate having to go look for him that much and also minimizing meat loss. (Been told you can eat right up to the hole)
 
 Got a rifle, new Remington Brass, and a Lee Handloader. Oh, and I dont want to rattle my teeth when I shoot it.
 
 I looked at some 405 Cast bullets at Sportsmans Warehouse today and some hornday 350 HP.  Also looked at the Winchester Ballistic Silvertip and the Silver HP. Done some quick math and figured I could load dinosaur loads for about 10-15 a box. So I figured leads thumpers would be better. 
 
 Anyway enough rambling, I am asking for your help in selecting what load you recommend given these parameters.
 
 

Offline tacklebury

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 06:54:56 PM »
Been quite a few discussions on this particular caliber.  Some swear by Rem 405's, some cast, some other manufacturers.  I personally have used almost nothing but Hornady, in the 325 FTX which was super accurate, albeit a little erratic on the expansion in tests and others have had good luck with it.  It's worked great on deer for some.  I shot my first deer with my BC with the Hornady 300gr HP and had excellent knock down - read it didn't take a step, but had a lot of meat devestation.  I am now using the 350gr. Hornady FP and haven't finished the load development, but by all reports another excellent bullet.  It also works on a large range of game up to Moose.  I haven't gotten any cast to shoot excellent as of yet, but I am looking at a RanchDog .458 mold which is actually sized to .460.  I've heard good things, but haven't freed up the funds for it yet.  I have also had such good accuracy from the Hornady line, with every one of these, that it hardly warrants worrying about it, except I'd like to be able to mold my own bullets in a SHTF scenerio.  Good luck and have fun pickin one.  They are a blast to shoot.  ;)
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Offline knight0334

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 07:22:22 PM »
Winchester's 300gr JHP Super-X works just fine.  My 22" will may ragged 1 holes at 50yrd off hand and 100yrd cloverleafs.
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2011, 02:26:32 AM »
BKS,
 
Because deer season is getting close I would go with a jacketed bullet as your load development should be much quicker.  I had very good luck with Handloads of Rem 405 SPs & H4198 in my 22" Handi.  The Remington 405 factory loads are in the 1,300 FPS range but this bullet will work well up to 2,000, but one will pay a recoil penalty at that velocity.  If you are hunt in an area with shots inside 125 yards there really is no need to hot rod the 405 and the factory ammo would work well.
 
If you do go the cast lead route make sure you have a bullet that has the right diameter.  It seems that most Handi 45-70s needs a .459" or larger diameter to shot accurately with a cast bullet.  Slugging the bore, see the FAQs, will answer this question for you.
 
Good luck hunting this fall.
 
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Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2011, 03:56:49 AM »
Both side of the coin have been discussed here many times with about equal results as far as which is best.
Myself, I prefer the flatter shooting, higher velocity 300gr HPs while others have had good luck with the old tried & true slower 405gr lead bullets.
Some say the meat damage of the HPs is a concern, I disagree.
I have shot deer with both loads and can tell you that each shot is it's own thing from little damage with both to more severe with both.
In all honesty, a little meat loss is better than a complete animal loss.
With carefull trimming at cut up time, I have never lost more than a half of a shoulder on a very small doe, and that was on a double shoulder shot with the 405 lead bullet.
Could have been a 300HP and the end result most likely would have been the same.
Unless it is a large deer you don't really lose that much meat, 2 to 3 hamburgers.
I tend to shoot smaller, younger deer and even then it isn't more than a couple of handsfull of meat.
My 22" Handi is accurate enough that I can take a head or neck shot out to 100 or a little more with very little damage.
On longer shots, out to about 300 to 350 (the longest shot I have taken on a deer with a 45/70) I go either for the vitals or the shoulders.
Depends on the terrain & the angle of the deer at the time.
When it comes down to it, it all depends on what YOUR gun likes best.
All of my 45/70s seem to prefer the Winchester 300gr HPs the best so that is what I use.
Yours may be different.
Get a box of each and see for yourself.
Both will do the job !
 
 
 
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Offline manatee1947

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2011, 03:06:42 PM »
I have had good luck with both cast and the 300HP's. 47 gr of RL7 is my accuracy load with the 300HP and I have heard at least a dozen on this forum say exactly that, 46-47 grs . I estimate that is about 1850 out of a 22" barrel, I do not have a chrony. The cast 340 gr bullets work well on 33gr of IMR 4198, which is around 1500 fps according to my books. Deer are not hard to kill, for anchor shots hit the spine. I recommend you get a pound of RL7 and start at about 38 -40 gr with the 300grs and go from there.
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2011, 04:10:34 PM »
I have had good luck with both cast and the 300HP's. 47 gr of RL7 is my accuracy load with the 300HP and I have heard at least a dozen on this forum say exactly that, 46-47 grs . I estimate that is about 1850 out of a 22" barrel, I do not have a chrony. The cast 340 gr bullets work well on 33gr of IMR 4198, which is around 1500 fps according to my books. Deer are not hard to kill, for anchor shots hit the spine. I recommend you get a pound of RL7 and start at about 38 -40 gr with the 300grs and go from there.
+1 on RL7.  Don't use anything else now myself and with the 300's and 325 ftx 46.7 gr. showed the best ladder results with a .87" cloverleaf.  300 hp's are super accurate in my gun also.  I just want to see if the 350 fp will anchor them as well and if it does, get a little less damage.  My last one I shot, had to be a spine, because the front hid behind a tree as he was about to disappear.  I hit him in the top of the ribs and it disintegrated 5 ribs on both sides, 5 vertebrae and came out bigger than my closed fist, which is about 5" from thumb nuckle to bottom of my hand.  Just hoping if I have to repeat that kind of shot I get some straps!  His were cut in two and I only ended up with a few inches each way, hehe.  That 300 does put em down though.  He never took a step, just dropped.
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

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Offline demented

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2011, 04:15:54 PM »
 Hornady FTX bullets.  Everything else is obsolete now.  Why handicap your rifle with flat nose bullets when new technology is available?  Wherabouts you live?  I'm just off I-30 about 40 miles south of Little rock.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2011, 01:52:42 AM »
As you can tell the 45-70 is a great one with MANY different loadings.
 
What your getting is everyone's favorites. Thing to remember is ALL OF THEM WORK and most work very well!
 
My own preference is for the heavier bullets. For what your describing you will be very hard pressed to improve on what the Factory REMINGTON 405 will do for you. My STD handi loading is a 400 Speer or 405 Rem bullet at about 1600 FPS.  Not really because I need the extra FPS, it simply shoots well in my guns and kills efficiently.
 
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2011, 02:05:01 AM »
  While I don't have a great deal of experience with large bores..it seems a 45-70 in almost any load would be plenty for whitetails.  So it would seem that 300grs would shoot flatter, with less recoil..and still be "big medicine'..
    Still, as always, it comes to what your rifle likes and personal preference.
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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2011, 05:46:17 AM »
IMO regardless of bullet styles, a shoulder shot will cause realtive more meat damage then one through the ribs.
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Offline jedman

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2011, 01:28:10 PM »
   +1 on what scatterbrain said about shot placement, you would more likely be able to eat up to the bullet hole with a shot thru the lungs.    ;D
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Offline cjrjck

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2011, 06:23:04 PM »
45 grains of Reloader 7 and either the Barnes 300 grain TSX FP or the Hornady 350 grain round nose would also work along with a hard cast lead bullet of the the same weight with a wide front end (meplat). When I hunt thick bottom land on public property, I like a shoulder shot too. I guess we prefer to do our hunting before the shot. I would give up a shoulder roast if needed rather than see the deer run off with the rest of the meat.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2011, 06:58:32 PM »
Honestly I don't think it will matter.  From 300 grains to 500 grains and from cowboy to the bottom end of 458 Win mag.  All will poke a hole through a deer.  Load a bunch, and shoot a bunch.  The more you shoot the better you are going to be with the rifle and the greater your success.

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2011, 04:17:53 AM »
.
 
.................... When I hunt thick bottom land on public property, I like a shoulder shot .........
 
 
 
 I guess we prefer to do our hunting before the shot. I don't understand that.  What do you mean?
 
 I would give up a shoulder roast if needed rather than see the deer run off with the rest of the meat. I don't think a deer shot thru the ribs with a 458 cal bullet will run very far, that can be said with any cal IMO.

45 gr of powder will not be a gentle round on the shoulder either. ;)
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Offline cjrjck

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2011, 08:57:48 AM »
.
 
.................... When I hunt thick bottom land on public property, I like a shoulder shot .........
 
 
 
 I guess we prefer to do our hunting before the shot. I don't understand that.  What do you mean? Elmer Keith quote. Self explanatory.
 
 I would give up a shoulder roast if needed rather than see the deer run off with the rest of the meat. I don't think a deer shot thru the ribs with a 458 cal bullet will run very far, that can be said with any cal IMO. Another Elmer Keith paraphrase. Just agreeing with the BKS who started the post. Apparently he and I have both experienced public hunting on thick bottom lands in the south. A 100 yard "death run" could mean a lost deer or one "recovered" by a nearby hunter. Been there on the former have heard stories about the latter.

45 gr of powder will not be a gentle round on the shoulder either. ;) Starting load in most manuals. I guess he could use reduced loads but then perhaps he should consider a 44 mag or 45 colt. Did not seem to be asking that.

Offline tobster

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2011, 10:08:41 AM »
I've had a couple of bad experiences with the Remington 300JHP. I'm convinced they are too soft,even for deer sized game. One bullet I recovered while skinning a deer was a smear of lead that had completely separated from the jacket. It's very possible these cases were the exception to the norm,but I'll never hunt with them again. There are too many other good bullets to try.

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2011, 12:36:32 PM »
  While I don't have a great deal of experience with large bores..it seems a 45-70 in almost any load would be plenty for whitetails.  So it would seem that 300grs would shoot flatter, with less recoil..and still be "big medicine'..
    Still, as always, it comes to what your rifle likes and personal preference.
I find the factory 405s recoil less than the 300 HPs... It a velocity thing... 405 are lucky to get to 1300 while the 300's are 1800+.
CW
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 04:04:01 PM »
Just as a follow up, I ran a ladder test from 45 gr. to 49 gr. RL7 with the Hornady 350gr. FP.  Was very successful, except the cheap scope I already had mounted to do development with couldn't take the recoil apparently, so I wasted 1/2 the ladder figuring out that its guts died after the first shot and started changing POI every shot.  Oh well, I threw the rear peep back on, adjusted it from memory to get it on paper and in 3 shots was back on target with the peeps.  I did find a funny thing on recoil with this bullet, it seemed almost backward in this case.  The 45 gr. loads kicked worse than the 48-49 gr. loadings, and the 46-47 fell in between...  I couldn't get good group pics due to the erradic scope, so I went more by hit point on the 10x10 gong.  I nailed it about 1" off dead center and the 350 nearly went through!   ::)   This is a 1/2" thick plate mild steel gong and I was pretty happy with the power.  It also lifted one sides chain off it's hook every direct hit and the mushroom on the back side was about 1.5" dia.  Since season is getting so close, the 48gr. load is going to be used, since it was least recoil and very accurate.  Maybe next year I'll have time to re-do the full ladder, but I don't think it's going to happen before this season.  I shot the last 5 free standing and hit the gong every shot unsupported at 100 yards, so pretty satisfied that any bambi encountered won't fare well.  ;)
Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

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Offline XD40SC

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 04:14:02 PM »
Remington 405 gr is hard to beat. I've killed alot of game using that load From hogs to deer. Has great penetration and small saplings close to the animal won't prevent the bullet from killing the game.

Offline surehuntsalot

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2011, 03:43:45 PM »
Winchester or Federal 300gr HP's are all I use in my 45-70

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2011, 07:01:22 AM »
I've had a couple of bad experiences with the Remington 300JHP. I'm convinced they are too soft,even for deer sized game. One bullet I recovered while skinning a deer was a smear of lead that had completely separated from the jacket. It's very possible these cases were the exception to the norm,but I'll never hunt with them again. There are too many other good bullets to try.

What speed? 
 

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2011, 09:07:33 AM »
I highly recommend Hornady 350 Grain SPFP ahead of 28 grains of 2400. You can use the HP's and I have some I have used but I prefer the SPFP for deer. This is a sweet shooting load, not to much recoil at all and VERY accurate. On a good day it shoots cloverleafs at 100 yards out of my 22" H&R 45-70....<><....:)
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Offline tobster

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 04:22:27 PM »
If I recall it was around 1800fps and change. I would have bet money they would have sailed right on through.

Offline abolt-fan

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2011, 10:26:50 PM »
My family and I hunt in south Miss. river bottoms, food plots and pine thickets for hogs and deer.  Between us all I'm loading for five 45-70 rifles with 22 in. barrels.  Hornady 300 gr. HP bullets have been used to take all the game we've shot.  No animals have been lost and very short to no tracking has been needed.  The only reason I would load a heavier bullet would be to hunt bear, elk or moose.  The load we use is; 49 gr. RL7 powder, Win. brass. and Win. LRP.  To make sure I'm quoting correct info I've taken this data directly from the Hornady 8th edition manual.  I have not chronographed this load but it should be doing between 1850-1900 f.p.s.  None of us find it uncomfortable to shoot and it has been accurate in all our rifles.  Good luck with your loading and hunting, Robert.

45-70 (Marlin 2nd level) data, 22 in. barrel
Win. brass,  Fed. 210 primer
300 gr.  HP, Alliant RL 7 powder
 
starting load:  44.7  gr. at 1600 f.p.s.
max. load.      52.3  gr. at 2000 f.p.s.   

The book data shows 1800 f.p.s. at 48.5 gr. and 1900 f.p.s. at 50.4 gr.

Offline petemi

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2011, 03:26:44 AM »
I find the factory 405s recoil less than the 300 HPs... It a velocity thing... 405 are lucky to get to 1300 while the 300's are 1800+.
CW

I hunt my own land which is a mix of forest and field.  300 yard shots are not only possible, they're probable.  Were I a sane person, I'd hunt with my 7-08, .308 or '06.  But I'm not, so I use the '70, .38-55, maxi, .445, etc.  To reach out there, a load has to be hot, and I've had to work with it and learn its rainbow.  My hunting load for the .45-70 is the 405 Remington over 45.8 gr. IMR4198 for 1900 plus fps.  It kills on both ends :'( , but it cloverleafs at 100. ;D   If I hunt an area where long shots are likely, only the .38-55 and the .45-70 go out.  This year will be the .38-55's turn.

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Offline gcrank1

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2011, 04:57:43 AM »
Anybody ever call you an 'old traditionalist' (or is that redundant?) NO, Not that you, Pete, are redundant!.......oh my, I better quit now and go to my corner  :P ......
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Offline petemi

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2011, 05:49:52 AM »
Anybody ever call you an 'old traditionalist' (or is that redundant?) NO, Not that you, Pete, are redundant!.......oh my, I better quit now and go to my corner  :P ......

G, I am a traditionalist.  I gave up side hammer MLs because I wouldn't scope them and I couldn't see the irons well enough to use ethically.  The old, big and slows have filled the gap for me.  Old, but not so big and slow is my little Handi .32-20.  Spanky turned me on to a 100 gr. load running 2200 fps. that is a tack driver.  It is a blast (pun intended) to shoot.

Pete
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Offline revbc

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2011, 12:48:36 PM »
Back to the OP's question, imr 4198 is a go to powder for a quick load work up.  I have shot several other powders (and some shoot good) but the 4198 to me is the most consistent. 
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Suggestions Needed Ammo Selection for Whitetail 45-70
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2011, 10:30:29 AM »
In my little Handi .32-20.  Spanky turned me on to a 100 gr. load running 2200 fps. that is a tack driver.  It is a blast (pun intended) to shoot.

Pete

Not to hijack, but...
 
Pete have you tried the 123/25Gr. 7.62x39 bullets yet?? Remember there Trotter barrels where built on 303 Brit barrels. (Long bullet friendly)  If not, your missing out... just sayin'...  ;)
 
CW
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