Range Day

[GH1]

 I finally was able to fire my new 45-70. I had sighted it with a bore sight last week so I knew it was in the ball park, I just needed to tweek the elevation a touch.
 I was shooting from a bench but without a rest, sighting in @ 50 yards, as this is  a typical distance for the area I hunt. The group size was about 3 inches or so but I think it was probably more me than the gun. I was using a 405 gr cast on top of 25 gr of AA5744, which should be good for about 1300 FPS or so. This level of accuracy is good enough for my needs.
 After 20 rounds the barrel was quite hot and my shoulder was starting to feel a little strain so I switched to the .30-30 barrel.  This didn't go nearly as well, my rounds were all over the place. I was shooting 165 gr cast bullets on top of 20 gr of 5744, sized at .309 through a microgroove bore. As I posted in the reloading forum, when I loaded these I didn't have a neck expanding die so when I seated the bullet the was some lube and lead shaving. I think this may have contributed to the accuracy problem. I may need to go to a .310 bullet, I'll have to slug the bore to know for sure.
 Next up was the .50 cal barrel. This test was very short lived, as I had the wrong primers. Instead of standard 290 primers I had 0300 musket caps, and therefore couldn't fire the weapon. Not a big deal though, my sights are screwed up from the factory anyway. I'll be calling tomorrow to get the situation rectified.
 Disappointed but not discouraged, I fired up my 1894 .357. I had a couple of sighting issues on that to sort out as well. It had been shooting to the right but I was able to get it close with the bore sight, only having to adjust the elevation once I got to the range. This one was also sighted in at 50 yards and is more that accurate enough for my needs.
 Overall, it was a productive, enjoyable day of shooting, can't wait to do it again.
GH1

[gcrank1]

GH1, you will get quicker cast bullet results matching your bullet dia. to the chamber throat than the bore. It is likely that loading that bullet into new or resized case necks (dies resize to jacketed bullet dia.s) squooze them down; and yes, shaving lead is a bad sign. Did you bell a tad so the bases would start in those before trying to seat the bullets? You can find out now  if those .309s are about right or not for the throat. See if one fits into a fully fire-formed case neck; if it falls in you need a bigger dia. bullet, though you might get away with careful neck sizing with something like the Lee Collet (neck sizing) Die (you can purchase them separately from the set. I really like them for cast bullets as you can 'tune' the adj. to a perfect fit for your low pressure cast bullet loads and simplify the reloading process a bunch.

[GH1]

 When I loaded those I didn't have the universal neck expander die, I have one now and will use it.
 Good idea about putting a bullet in the unsized brass,I'll try that this evening. I'm also going to play with different loads and get a box of factory ammo, as was recommended by the folks at H&R. If I get the same reslt with factory ammo I'm looking at a barrel problem and will have to send it back.
 According to my Lyman book 5744 is supposed to work well with cast bullets. I'll try some different charge wieghts and see what happens.
 It's going to take some tweaking but I'll figure it out. The tuning is half the fun, it gives me a great excuse to go to the range.
GH1

[topper88]

The Lyman Cast Bullet manual pushes fast burning powders for cast bullets.  I have found this to be counter-intuitive.  After reading Modern Reloading by Richard Lee I have favored his theory on cast bullet shooting and use slower ball powders.  By matching the bullet hardness to pressure limitations I have been able to successfully develop cast bullet loads for all my Handies and now that's all I shoot.  An example is a 33 grain load of BL(C)2 behind a 155 grain lead bullet with a gas check is right around 2000 fps and groups 3/4" at 100 yds. in my 30/30.  Heavier bullets in .30 caliber are better in a larger cartridge and I favor the .308 and .30-40 Krag for those. 

The .30 caliber rifling in the Handy seems to be perfect for the cast bullets.

[gcrank1]

The Cast Bullet Forum here on GBO is invaluable too. No sense getting frustrated trying to re-invent the wheel.

[GH1]

It sure is, I go there all the time. In fact, this site in general is where I get most of my information.
GH1

[Alvin]

I haven't had much luck shooting cast bullets in a Micro-Groove barrel. Jacketed bullets seem to shoot just fine in them.

[GH1]

  You can find out now  if those .309s are about right or not for the throat. See if one fits into a fully fire-formed case neck; if it falls in you need a bigger dia. bullet.
 
I tried that yesterday and the .309 will NOT go into a fired, unsized case. So that indicates I have a proper bullet diameter, correct?
GH1

[quickdtoo]

I think it means the chamber is made for jacketed bullets. To use a larger cast bullet you'd need to neck ream the chamber or turn the case necks so the .309" bullets can be chambered, even then they may not be big enough to shoot well, not unlike what's required for the H&R 38-55s.

Tim

[gcrank1]

That is the 'quick' way to do a throat check; also be aware that sometimes you may have a little crimp on the mouth of the case that doesnt entirely 'iron out' due to brass memory. If you take a needle nosed pliers with rounded backs and stick the tips into the case and roll them around the mouth it will open it up for sure, them try the bullets for fit. (hey, you can use a belling die to, if you have one  ) I like a bullet dia. that just goes in with a little pressure.
The next consideration then is if that bullet dia. is at least groove dia. of the rifling. If so, and you dont overpower the lead alloy with too much velo, it should shoot pretty decent. My cast loads in a number of calibers, including 30-40Krag and 30-06, are about 1450fps. Others have successfully got up into that 2000ish fps range, but that isnt foe me with non-gas check bullets and fun shooting. My loads already exceed the old schuetzen velos in similar calibers and do pretty good amongst my peers.
Now, if that bullet dia. is not up to groove dia. you will need to go into more involved solutions, but give all this a go first.

[GH1]

 I think I'm going to try to slow the bullet down a bit. The bullet maker recommends a max of 1600 FPS and I think I was running about 1800. Also, my bullets weigh 165 gr and all my data is for 170 gr, so I may be running faster than that.
I'll probably try loading a few a little bit faster as well, just to see what happens.
 I talked to a fellow at H&R earlier this week and he seemed to think .309 should work OK. I have a hard time believing my bullets are too small, given the fact that there was no leading. but I've been wrong before, so I'll try a few different loads.
GH1    

[gcrank1]

Reviewing your original post, you had some 'issues' with those bullets properly fitting (a fully resized?) case anyway; get rid of those and your .309 may be just fine. Make nice cartridges following the conventional cast bullet wisdom and they may start to group (those first ones just werent it, and I think you suspected it).
The velo difference between 165s and 170s will not be worth considering, but remember, cast bullets go faster, per load, than jacketed anyway.
If Im trying a 'fast load' and get no accuracy, I slow it down and reconsider.

[GH1]

 I went back to the range today for more testing. At the suggestion of H&R I tried some factory ammo through my .30-30, 150 gr Remington Core-Lokt's to be specific. H&R didn't recommend a particular brand, I used those because they were inexpensive and available.
 The Remingtons shot just fine. I then switched to my cast loads. In addition to the first batch loaded with 20 gr of 5744, I also had loads of 18 and 22 gr. None shot well, I couldn't hit the 2x3 target at 25 or 50 yards.
 When I returned home I cleaned my gun and had a devil of a time getting the lead fouling out. Evidently I didn't notice it after my first trip. I've never owned a gun with Microgroove rifling so maybe I just didn't know what I was looking at.
So given the fact the jacketed round shot well I think I'm going to try some .311's from Hunters Supply. Now I have to figure out if I shold go ahead and shoot up the .309's or pull them all and start over.  I'm glad I only bought a hundred!
 On a more positive note, I was able to fire my .50 cal barrel a couple of times before I got rained out. I was using the 405 gr RNFP sized to .459" that I usually use with my .45-70, with MMP sabots on top of 100 gr of loose Pyrodex FFg RS. Those particular sabots are for use with .457 or .458 bullets so the fit was a little snug but they shot quite well. I'll probably pick up some .457" bullets to make loading a little easier.
 I'll tell you what, the .50 cal sure does kick! Much more so than my .45-70 with 25 gr of 5744.   
GH1  

[gcrank1]

You might as well pull those others apart.......yeah, its a waste, but unless you just like trying to scrub leading out.......
FWIW, my .311s that work great in my 30-40K and '06 dont fit in my 30-30, the throat is too tight. Not that 311s wont work in yours, but you havent really determined what the largest dia. bullet is that will still chamber and extract/eject, have you? I benefit from having .309, .310, .311,and .312s, plus I can turn any dia 'plug' and mic to know just what works, which you may not be able to do. I hate to see a guy buy stuff that doesnt work, Ive done too much of that myself in times past.
Also, you arent sure if the leading is due to a bullet too small in dia. or too much velo in those loads, right? If you havent, figure a load that will run about 1350-1450 fps and use some of the .309s, load them carefully in cases with fully expanded case necks (if you press them into resized cases the necks squeeze the bullts down even farther) and make sure a test load does chamber up and extract OK, then make enough to test, say 10 or so, and paper them.

[GH1]

I have the means to measure the throat area, but I'm not certain where it is. It's my understanding the throat is the area between the mouth of the brass and where the rifling starts, is that correct?
I like your idea about the reduced loads, I have some Trail Boss that will fill the bill nicely. At least that way I'll get some kind of use out of them, even if it's just plinking.
GH1

[gcrank1]

Ideally the neck portion of the chamber should transition to a proper bullet dia. throat, in these modern times usually called a 'ball seat', which then transitions to a leade which takes the bullet into the rifling.
Ideally......
IIRC, many of the old, more traditional cartridges (in. the 30-30) come off the case mouth and pretty abruptly taper into the rifling. Most like this will benefit from a better designed 'throating reamer (check with 4-D!!!) and they will likely have some other questions for you.
FWIW, I have been able to get all my rifles, older, and modern, to shoot cast bullets pretty well by using brass that has been fire-formed to each chamber, not resized, chamfer the case mouth edge a bit, bell a tad, and seat a bullet that is just a 'light' press in fir. If it takes too much press in, it expands the brass neck too much and they usually get sticky. This is how I find the limits of what my existing chamber can handle. It is a little futzy, I admit, but the methodology is sound, and the results have been satisfying. Keep in mind that brass from different brands may have thicker/thinner necks! If you have a couple of brands, you might prep some of each to 'fine tune' your chamber fit with the bullets you have.
After that its usually a plain base up to 1450fps,  GC can go faster, made of the same basic WWt + a dash of tin alloy bullets.
I suffered through a Martini Enfield .303 for over a year, that would do 1-2 ft groups at 50yd. at first. When I finished up (almost a novel, not a short story) I had 1-2" with open sights.