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Author Topic: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.  (Read 2620 times)

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Offline lakota

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I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« on: August 31, 2011, 10:35:53 AM »
In the past year I have started cutting my patching at the muzzle. I like it. It beats sitting and pre cutting them. Only problem is that it seems to have screwed up my loading cadence. I have shot with precut patches for 15 years and never once have I fired a short seated ball Twice since I have started cutting at the muzzle I have fired short seated balls thankfully with no damage to gun or shooter. The second one happened today. I'm think if I ditch the short starter and just start the ball with the ramrod and then cut the patch it will remind me to seat the ball home. Maybe I'm just getting forgetful?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 10:59:02 AM »
Short starters are a modern thing.  The old timers didn't have or use them.
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Offline Semisane

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 11:55:24 AM »
I'm a pre-cut guy myself.  An hour in front of the TV with a yard of pillow tick and pair of scissors isn't much of a burden for me and produces a "fair number" of patches.   Short starters may indeed be a modern thing.  But I have some tight fitting accuracy loads that pretty much demand one so I really don't care.
 
Evidently your barrel survived the short starts without damage lakota, or this thread would have been a real downer.  I've done it twice over the years and got the willies before checking the barrel and finding no damage, much to my relief.
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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 01:11:48 PM »
Its the old muscle memory thing going on.  Pick a routine, and stick with it.  Keep double checking yourself, and eventually it will be second nature.  Heck, I caught myself double loading a .54 one time.  Had several rifles at the range, switching between them.  Loaded the .54, then thought, did I already?  Measured it with my ram rod, and yep....
 
Larry
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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 01:51:15 PM »
Quote from: Bigeasy on August 31, 2011, 01:11:48 PM
.........  Loaded the .54, then thought, did I already?  Measured it with my ram rod, and yep....
 

 
Good catch... 8)
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Offline lakota

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 04:23:37 PM »
Quote from: Semisane on August 31, 2011, 11:55:24 AM

 
Evidently your barrel survived the short starts without damage lakota, or this thread would have been a real downer.  I've done it twice over the years and got the willies before checking the barrel and finding no damage, much to my relief.

I glad the rifle in question is a .45 caliber flintlock. Light powder charges and at least some pressure could be released through the vent. I wonder if a larger bore caplock loaded heavier would fare as well?
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Offline Semisane

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 05:57:14 PM »
Quote
I wonder if a larger bore caplock loaded heavier would fare as well?

Last year I short started a .54 Green Mountain caplock barrel on my Renegade.  The load was 95 grains GOEX FFg under a pretty tight patched ball.  Other than about two minutes of total distress on my part, no harm done.  Sometimes you get lucky.
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Offline lakota

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 06:21:40 PM »
The thing that scares me is that if it were a cap lock all of that blow back would be directed at my face. thats as good a reason as any to wear shooting glasses. Also wear I shoot there is often a breeze blowing directly in my face. I often come home with tiny little burn marks on my forehead. All I can figure is that some of the pan flash is getting blown back at me.
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Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 04:20:16 AM »
I guess that you need to see what the greater evil is lakota, Point being that we took a friend who was new to the sport to the club with us once. Doug had fired his new muzzleloader but once at the range, he practically kissed our feet when we produced our short starters. This was because every finger on his right hand had cuts on them from the front sight and he had no idea that a tool called a short starter existed  ;D ;D
 
If you took my short starter away I may be ok for a range session but would surely miss it. I think that the big benifit of using one is to get that ball started quickly without too much deformation.
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Offline superscifi12

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 07:33:48 AM »
hi all,
I'm new to this forum and rocklocks but I didn't like my short starter so I coned my barrel, Now I know this could start a firestorm but I like it
 
 
mike
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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 04:33:27 AM »
I get by without a short starter.  I've found that as long as I'm wearing leather gloves I can grip the ramrod and start the ball w/o a short starter.
 
I've heard the old stuff about the old timers just thumb starting them.  Either they had thumbs of iron, or they got by with a pretty loose fit.  Every time I shoot a combination that I can thumb start my accuracy suffers miserably.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2011, 06:17:02 AM »
They used much smaller projectiles and thicker patches.
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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2011, 09:17:24 AM »
Hmm.  I have a .527 mold I might have to try with a heavy denim patch.
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Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2011, 03:11:06 PM »
I use the butt (pommel?) of my sheath knife to start he ball flush with the muzzle, then cut the patch across the muzzle before returning the knife to its sheath and ramming the ball home with the ramrod. 

-WH-
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Offline Swampman

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2011, 04:07:03 PM »
I use precut square patches because I don't like scratching up the muzzle of my rifle.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2011, 05:56:40 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on September 06, 2011, 06:17:02 AM
They used much smaller projectiles and thicker patches.

Nice.
 
When I was a kid, I ran out of balls for my .50 calibre (.490) Mountain Rifle. So I started using .45 calibre (.440) balls and denum patching to hunt prairie dogs. I did not notice any degredation in accuracy, and I went right along shooting prairie dogs with .45 calibre round balls until started casting my own.

I recently bought a TVM .45 calibre (.440) Southern Kentucky Poorboy. Once I got it sighted in, I started shooting .40 calibre (.395) round balls out of it...dang if that gun isn't more accurate with those little .40 calibre balls and heavy denum patching.
 
-Aim Small Miss Small-
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
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Offline necchi

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2011, 06:47:44 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on September 06, 2011, 04:07:03 PM
I use precut square patches because I don't like scratching up the muzzle of my rifle.

 ???  there's no rule say's ya gotta cut so close  :o   ;D
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Offline saddlebum

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2011, 07:51:05 PM »
Quote from: Rock Home Isle on September 06, 2011, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: Swampman on September 06, 2011, 06:17:02 AM
They used much smaller projectiles and thicker patches.

Nice.
 
When I was a kid, I ran out of balls for my .50 calibre (.490) Mountain Rifle. So I started using .45 calibre (.440) balls and denum patching to hunt prairie dogs. I did not notice any degredation in accuracy, and I went right along shooting prairie dogs with .45 calibre round balls until started casting my own.

I recently bought a TVM .45 calibre (.440) Southern Kentucky Poorboy. Once I got it sighted in, I started shooting .40 calibre (.395) round balls out of it...dang if that gun isn't more accurate with those little .40 calibre balls and heavy denum patching.
 
-Aim Small Miss Small-

Mountain Man sabot loads.
 
I never used a starter. Too much stuff to carry and I used pre-cut, greased patches. I made a round patch cutter from a piece of pipe, ground down to a sharp edge and cut multiple layers of ticking with one whack from a hammer. Greased with a product called Spit Patch and stored in a snuff can.
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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2011, 04:00:45 AM »
Once I fire my 1st shot the next 8 shots are from a shooting block that is located around my neck that has been pre-loaded with patched roundies...after that I'm shootin' from the bag and cutting off at the muzzle.
 
Its seldom that I have to dip in and shoot from the bag... :o
 
"Mountain Man Sabots"....I like that.  8)
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 12:51:36 PM »
Oooh Yea...I use a short starter...always have.  ???
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Swampman

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 04:11:30 PM »
Lee has some .470 molds in their closeout section.  They are seconds but have a full warranty.  I ordered one for my .50 Renegade.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Winter Hawk

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 04:17:31 PM »
Rock Isle Home,

I was going over the hunting regs for Ohio and they say that you have to use .40 cal or smaller muzzleloader for squirrels.  Since my rifle is .45, the idea of using .40 balls with a heavy denim patch appeals to me!  I had thought of that but figured accuracy would go out the window.  I may have to revisit that plan!

-WH-
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Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2011, 04:32:26 AM »
My method is similar to Rock Isle's, I keep a ball block.  Except I use a block made of 3/4" board so the I can push the patch and ball flush to the wood.  So in a sense I "cut at the muzzle", but it's really just cut at the block.
 
I've also borrowed a trick from the black powder cartridge shooters and I flip the block over and put a "grease cookie" as they call 'em under the patch and ball.  Then when it's time to load I just pour the powder down, hold the block over the muzzle w/ greasy side down and ram the cookie, patch, and ball home.  The excessive amount of grease helps preserve the integrity of the patch as well as allows indefinite shooting w/o swabbing in between. 
 
The drawback is it can take up to a 1/2 dozen shots or so to "dress" the bore before she finally settles into tight groups.  So if you're the type who cleans the gun every night regardless of whether you're going hunting the next day this method would not work well.  However, if you can go out a few days before season and practice a bunch it works really well.
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Offline lakota

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2011, 11:50:41 AM »
Well I'm thinking my problem might be more along the lines of forgetfullness. I went out to shoot this morning. Got the rifle to the range and swab the bore out with alcohol. Get ready to load...no shooting bag its back at home hanging on the wall ???
 
Luckily I had a few hundred rounds of 380 in the car so I got a little practice in with my CCW gun otherwise the trip would have been a supreme waste of gas.
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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2011, 01:23:32 PM »
Quote from: Winter Hawk on September 08, 2011, 04:17:31 PM
Rock Isle Home,

I was going over the hunting regs for Ohio and they say that you have to use .40 cal or smaller muzzleloader for squirrels.  Since my rifle is .45, the idea of using .40 balls with a heavy denim patch appeals to me!  I had thought of that but figured accuracy would go out the window.  I may have to revisit that plan!

-WH-

Winter Hawk,
 
I hope that it works out for you. My .50 Calibre CVA loves a little .45 calibre ball wrapped in denum and my TVM .45 is actually more accurate with a .395 roundy wrapped in that heavy fabric as well.
 
When I started experimenting with the "Mountain Man Sabots" (total giggle factor) I was thinking about those small bore shoots at the rondies where the .40 calibre is the top end and .45 calibre is considered too big.  8)
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2011, 01:27:34 PM »
Quote from: lakota on September 09, 2011, 11:50:41 AM
Well I'm thinking my problem might be more along the lines of forgetfullness. I went out to shoot this morning. Got the rifle to the range and swab the bore out with alcohol. Get ready to load...no shooting bag its back at home hanging on the wall ???
 
Luckily I had a few hundred rounds of 380 in the car so I got a little practice in with my CCW gun otherwise the trip would have been a supreme waste of gas.

Went to the range 2 weeks ago and had to run home 3 times because I kept forgeting things...my last trip home was to get round balls so that I could even shoot.
 
Words cannot describe my state of emotions by the time I finally got to shoot. Thank Gawd my shooting range is only 5 minutes from home, I didn't even have my CCW with me. :o
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"

Offline Swampman

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2011, 01:29:19 PM »
My Lee .470 mold came today.  It looks perfect and it was only $10.00.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2011, 05:32:03 PM »
You need a CCW to shoot at the range?
 
How do you conceal carry a 56-inch smokepole?
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Offline lakota

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2011, 06:20:15 PM »
Quote from: Black Jaque Janaviac on September 09, 2011, 05:32:03 PM
How do you conceal carry a 56-inch smokepole?

I prefer a nice leather/kydex hybrid inside the waistband holster. ;)
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Offline Rock Home Isle

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Re: I think I am going to throw my short starter into the fire.
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2011, 07:36:42 PM »
 :o  Well there it is...there you have it.
 
...right now I'm so beat. I can't even think of a snazy comeback...you have me at a disadvantage.  8)
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“Lost?? Hmmm... been fearsome confused for a month or two, but I ain't never been lost!”
Henry Frap the "Mountain Men"

“Ain't this somethin'? I told my pap and mam I was going to be a mountain man; acted like they was gut-shot. Mother Gue said to me; ‘Make your life go here, son. Here's where the people is. Them mountains is for Indians and wild men.’  "Mother Gue", I says "the Rocky Mountains is the marrow of the world," and by God, I was right. Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline.”
Del Gue in "Jeremiah Johnson"
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