Author Topic: dc lighting (Read 1385 times)

no guns here · « **on:** September 01, 2011, 05:11:17 AM »

I assume (since as I've noted elsewhere on GBO that I'm and electrical idiot) that when the old folks ran electrical generators off of their old windmills (prior to REP) that they were running DC and not AC. I also assume that all modern wind generators have some sort of chips in them that would probably die in the event of an EMP event. So, how/what would I need to generate power from the wind to run a non-EMP critical electrical system. Say I wanted to generate enough power to run CFL lights (about 100 watts total) and maybe a small water pump? Okay I need a wind mill of some type and a generator but it has to be old style with nothing in it that would die in an EMP. Can this even be done in this day and age?

NGH

efremtags · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2011, 02:13:32 PM »

all wind turbines geenrate AC by definition, the motor generators. They become rectified to create C, or require frequency conversion to provide regulated AC.

If you want ot use this off grid, you need DC, so you can store the energy in batteries. Wind comes in burst and is sporadic, so you need a lot of battery to properly provide long term energy use (7 days worth is typical)

If an EMP blast is your concern, not much will work for you as all power genration I know of has at least a diode in it. Turbines can be easily repaired, and charge regulators are cheap to replace as well.

Most of the old wind mils were mechanical mils, not electrical power sources. They turned..well.mills...What you saw was likely a conversion like a PTo of a tractor, using the mill to power a generator. Its unreliable because the genrator requires constant RPM, something wind turbines are bad at.

BBF · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2011, 07:32:18 PM »

Have a look at a West Marine catalogue and read up on their wind generators. Not cheap however they do what you want to do.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2011, 02:12:07 AM »

lights wouldnt be a problem but batterys and an invertor big enough to pull the start up of a water pump and not going to be cheap. it would be probably cheaper to do wind for your lights and other small things and just run a generator when you need water.

Gaz-52 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2011, 03:13:31 AM »

My $.02 worth is forget the wind mill ( too many moving parts ) . Solar panels . AGM storage battery, Voltage regulator matched to the panel/s output ,and a small generator to power a pump and as backup to charge the battery bank when the sun don't shine.
Invest in some good quality LED lights , they may be pricey but they are very efficient and have 10x plus the life of other lamps.
Small DC water pumps are available but depending on how far the water has to be pumped a 240v A.C. pump may be a better option . Can you pump up to an elevated "header" tank , then just gravity feed it back to your cabin ?

Cheers Gaz.

keith44 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 02, 2011, 08:23:11 AM »

+1 Gaz-52

Watt is also called volt-amps Voltage multiplied by current (ampereage) equals wattage. With todays lightbulbs you cannot use their wattage equalivent to size the power requirements. You actually have to look at the voltage requirement, and the current draw and use the volt-amps to size the power requirements.

DC is the most likely to provide low cost installation (fewer parts needed) but at 15 volts or less will require more maintenance due to the tendency to corrode. Attention to clean tight connections, and an application of an electrical rated grease or petroleum jelly will keep the corrosion under control. You just need to keep a careful eye on all DC circuits.

BBF · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2011, 05:21:04 AM »

How much lift is required from the well? Again there are Marine type submersible 12 volt pumps available, even if you have to hook some up in series to get the lift you need.

bilmac · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:32:40 AM »

There are also submersible DC pumps available that are made for wells. I had several installed on a Refuge I worked on. They were 32 volts and had just a large solar panel for power, no batteries. They pumped when the sun shined only. A large stock tank replaced the battery, it stored water instead of electricity.

I would agree with Gaz. don't try to run a pressurized water system, pump your water high enough to put it into a tank and gravity feed it to your house. If you live in the south this would be easy, a tank on a hill or tower. If you have to worry about freezing then you about have to have a cistern.

no guns here · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2011, 07:31:45 AM »

Okay this was theoretical exercise in planning, not a real world situation that has to be solved now. I understand about the better results that I could obtain using a solar system however I'm looking for a very low-tech way to provide minimal lighting via a generation system that has no chance of emp problems. Way back in the 20's/30's prior to the Rural Electrification Administration, many farmers out west in OK/TEX area used mechanical wind mills hooked up to a generator (of some kind unknown to me) that would power a few incandescent bulbs in the house. NOW, I'd like to be able to do the same thing with the very low voltage requirements of led lights. However, I know that modern generators have have diodes and such in them that may fry in the event of an emp strike or large scale solar storm. I would like to think that OLD generators didn't have such sensitive parts in them and probably had some kind of mechanical controls in them or am I completely crazy? Don't answer that last part...

A mechanical windmill to pump to a holding tank to create "head" is old tech and not a problem to do anywhere where the water shallow enough to pump that way.

NGH

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2011, 08:29:23 AM »

Depending on amount of lights you wish to power a car alternator with a source to turn it will power lights . A gas engine with a pully and belt to mate it to the alternator od gen.

blind ear · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2011, 11:14:59 AM »

A DC motor to pull the alternator! SHAZAM! (I don't have a clue) ear

keith44 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 06, 2011, 04:45:21 PM »

Do a google search for tractor restoration parts. You can get old school generators 6V to charge a bank of 6V batteries. Anything that supplies DC voltage directly to a load other than batteries has diodes. In fact the LED lights you want are Light Emitting Diodes and can be smoked by as little as 0.7 Volts. A 12 Volt 55 watt incandesent light with 6 Volts DC applied would give off about 27 watt light equalivent candle lumens. The light will be more orange than white, but because the filament is not getting so hot it will more than double the life of the bulb

Gaz-52 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:37:27 AM »

Quote from: no guns here on September 06, 2011, 07:31:45 AM

Okay this was theoretical exercise in planning, not a real world situation that has to be solved now. I understand about the better results that I could obtain using a solar system however I'm looking for a very low-tech way to provide minimal lighting via a generation system that has no chance of emp problems. Way back in the 20's/30's prior to the Rural Electrification Administration, many farmers out west in OK/TEX area used mechanical wind mills hooked up to a generator (of some kind unknown to me) that would power a few incandescent bulbs in the house. NOW, I'd like to be able to do the same thing with the very low voltage requirements of led lights. However, I know that modern generators have have diodes and such in them that may fry in the event of an emp strike or large scale solar storm. I would like to think that OLD generators didn't have such sensitive parts in them and probably had some kind of mechanical controls in them or am I completely crazy? Don't answer that last part...

A mechanical windmill to pump to a holding tank to create "head" is old tech and not a problem to do anywhere where the water shallow enough to pump that way.

NGH

I believe that a simple solar setup as previously explained would be extremely reliable and need minimal maintenance compared to all other options . Providing of course that you don't have prolonged spells without sunshine.
A simple "wind mill " I have seen called a Savonious Rotor or simply "S" rotor could certainly drive any common 12 volt car alternator to charge a battery or drive a pump directly . The "S" rotor turns on a vertical shaft , so any gearing can be positioned at ground level, (great if you are scarred of heights).

It does not need a tail / rudder to keep it facing to the wind ,but some kind of speed governor would be advisable . I have seen mills of this kind made from 44gall oil drums cut in 1/2 lengthwise then welded onto the shaft to form the "s" shape .
A number of these can be fitted to a common shaft to get a bit more grunt to drive the load. Do a search for Savonious Rotor , I think that's the spelling , I'm sure some photos or sketches will explain the workings better than I can . This Appropriate technology is the sort of info that folks will need if & when TSHTF. Hope this may be of interest to someone.

Cheers Gaz.

9

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:56:21 AM »

I dont think a auto alternator is what you want. I doubt and windmill without expensive gearing is going to turn an alternator fast enough to provide a charge. one option for short term use of dc lighting for emergency would be to have two batterys installed in your truck and run pig tails off one and charge it while your using your truck. That way youd allways be insured one was charged up for starting your truck. As to the diode thing. I dont know of an alternator that doesnt use them. A older generator with a regulator would probably be your best bet. Another option for someone worrying about emp is to wrap your unit in aluminum foil and put it in a metal box that is grounded and has insulation (rubber) on the inside so the aluminum foil wrapped unit isnt touching metal. I read somewhere that if done like that emp wont fry it. Best bet though would be to go to the hardware store and buy yourself a point and drive it and put a pitcher pump on it. My well has only about a 5 ft lift needed so i just keep a pitcher pump in the well pit that I could use in an emergency.

no guns here · « **Reply #14 on:** September 07, 2011, 02:51:48 AM »

Quote

A older generator with a regulator would probably be your best bet.

Now we are getting somewhere with an actual term that I get search on. How far back (60's, 50's, 40's....) would I have to go to find something like this?

I just talked to my grandmother this past weekend, she's 87. She said her dad (who I never knew) had two windmills, (one still works, an old aeromoter that was rebuilt about 10 years ago for the umpteenth time). One made electricity that they could use for lights in the evening. She said that sometimes they wouldn't have lights and they'd have to turn on the gas lights. I'm assuming from this that he had it hooked up to a battery or two for storage. I'm thinking a small wind-driven generator could charge a 12v battery today just like then. A small string of LED's could then provide more than enough light for reading, cooking or whatever in one or two rooms for a few hours a night.

Remember this is for a SHTF backup, emergency, this is all the electricity we have sort of application. I'm not looking for this to power a whole house or a pump or AC or fridge or anything like that.

Water can be pumped by hand with Lloyd's pitcher pump if needed. The well we re-did at my in-laws has a low-powered DC solar pump on it. Doesn't pump very much, very fast but it works. I'd really like to have a mechanical wind-mill. Grandma said I could have hers but I have to go get it off her farm way up in NW OK. Not a problem except that's about 1000 miles from here...

NGH

243dave · « **Reply #15 on:** September 07, 2011, 07:03:33 PM »

Check out this topic. Its a discussion on windmill motors, mainly motors from treadmills.
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,157985.0.html

bilmac · « **Reply #16 on:** September 07, 2011, 07:12:58 PM »

The old generators were just that generators. They generated DC current. They all had to have a regulator to keep from cooking the battery. For a long time now electricity for cars has been made with alternators. They generate AC electricity which is converted to DC with a set of diodes.

I think you are buying yourself a lot of headaches following this rabbit trail. There are good reasons why generators gave way to alternators, and most folks don't recommend windmills for homemade power. I don't think solar panels themselves are vulnerable to EMP pulses, just the regulating equipment, which for simple setups is a gadget about the size of a box of 30-30s. So shield the regulator for a solar panel and you have a simple EMP proof way to make some juice.

Keith1 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2011, 07:31:03 PM »

The last time that I saw one of these old wind driven generators [not altenator] was in the 1970s at Punta Prieta, Baja California, Mexico. At that time it was still in service but it has now been replaced by a more modern unit.
Regards, Keith

bilmac · « **Reply #18 on:** September 08, 2011, 02:40:06 AM »

My wife's folks had one, they called them wind chargers. They were 32 volts. For a long time there were big square glass jars around their place that were the remains of the battery cells from the system. As soon as the REA ran power lines out that way the wind chargers were history. Lots of maintenance, not much power.

BW56 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 08, 2011, 09:24:01 PM »

Also a generator has magnets and will make electricity from scratch. An alternator has no magnets so it needs some dc current to get started. Unless it is old and picked up a little magnetism in the rotor. Alternators are more efficient at lower speed and require less physical power to operate.

WD45 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 10, 2011, 06:04:14 AM »

A lot of old lawn tractors used 12V starter generators. Most any cub cadet made in the 60's and early 70's had them and so did other brands. There are a lot of them old cubs still around and a lot of parts floating around also

Gaz-52 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:35:30 AM »

Quote from: bilmac on September 07, 2011, 07:12:58 PM

The old generators were just that generators. They generated DC current. They all had to have a regulator to keep from cooking the battery. For a long time now electricity for cars has been made with alternators. They generate AC electricity which is converted to DC with a set of diodes.

I think you are buying yourself a lot of headaches following this rabbit trail. There are good reasons why generators gave way to alternators, and most folks don't recommend windmills for homemade power. I don't think solar panels themselves are vulnerable to EMP pulses, just the regulating equipment, which for simple setups is a gadget about the size of a box of 30-30s. So shield the regulator for a solar panel and you have a simple EMP proof way to make some juice.

I agree with bilmac . I would like to add that alternators & generators can have a combination of electromagnetic as well as permanent magnetic fields it depends on the design and operational requirements.
In general terms the earlier auto type generators would not produce their full output at low speed. ( Recall the GEN light on the dashboard that would glow at idle but would go out when the engine revs increased .) They were replaced by the alternator which had a built in diode pack to convert the AC.to DC. to charge the battery. The alternator is regulated to produce high output from slower speeds , and give a longer service life due its use of sliprings and carbon brushes .( Generators use a commutator and carbon brushes which are more expensive to make and wear out faster.)
Pardon my ignorance ,but what is EMP and how does it effect "stand alone " electrical gear ? A direct lightening hit on a solar panel or the wiring would take it out,BIG TIME,

but EMP is a new one on me.

We are a bit behind the times down here .
Cheers Gaz

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** September 11, 2011, 02:13:23 AM »

emp is electromagnetic pulse and is caused usually by
a neucular explosion or a sun flare.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #23 on:** September 11, 2011, 03:47:21 AM »

If you live in an area where wind makes good sense, and if you are looking at EMP as a viable threat (prudent concearn IMO) maybe you want to look at the best of the modern with backup parts.

Two ideas hit me. First, run a modern wind generator (OK, it's an alternator) and keep your replacement parts in a shielded box. I'd imagine any diodes that could leave you in the dark would be parts you would keep backups of anyway. Why not store them in a small (apartment or dorm sized) refrigerator with a ground strap screwed to it.

Next idea is that these electrical components may be something that could be 'in line' from the turbine but not up on top of the tower. Maybe your whole regulating/charging circut could be built into a shielded box. The moving parts are up there in the wind. A cable set comes down into a box made to withstand EMP and any other thing that may befall it, another cable set runs to your battery bank.

The idea of going back to the old solution has merrit. Earlier days may offer simpler soutions. Then again, some things were done differently because they didn't know better. It's hard to seperate the intelectaul wheat from the chaff sometimes. Which old ways are still aplicable, which are truly obsolete. Electrical knowledge has come a long way. I think that if you want to run mechanical pumps off of wind, the go for what was done 100 years ago. If you want electricity, go for the best modern technology has to offer and then armor it against the possable threats of tomorow. Arm yourself with the best of what's old and the best of what's new.

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:57:47 AM »

got my pup tent house built ...30 x 30 ....put rep on north side battery on south...all wiring is colar coaded in plastic and a 12 volt light bulb in every room with its own switch,,,,a boat fuse box on south wall with car fuses...a 12 volt battery sets in my shead 10 yards away from house...battery is a old one that wouldnt start my truck,,,,,will last about 3 days without charge.....waiting 4 tax money to buy solar panals..........a buddy lives off grid uses solar.....lots of bucks 4 his set up........no air cond..in 105 summers....runs propane 4 heat.....also has big propane gen for sunless days.............im using 60 watt bulbs 4 rv......jb

geezerbiker · « **Reply #25 on:** November 14, 2011, 01:51:09 AM »

An electromagnetic pulse ( not EMP pulse, that's redundant) like from a nuclear blast will generate enough power in the windings of any generator or alternator to melt the windings.

These things work buy sweeping a magnetic field over copper windings and the EMP will do the same thing magnified by several times in an instant. It's a nice idea to have something that would survive this but it would have to be in a shielded box in your basement...

Tony

tacklebury · « **Reply #26 on:** November 15, 2011, 02:49:03 PM »

EMP will also destroy any thing with a semiconductor... It requires a serious level of shielding to avoid the emp of a 10000ft dirty bomb explosion. 8(

billy_56081 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 15, 2011, 03:07:02 PM »

A good idea would be to store your emergency generation equipment in a sheilded place. Bury them under ground. Matt knows quite a bit about using the motors from tread mills for making wind turbines. Also a good source for inverters to make dc into ac is olf battery back up ups systems.