Author Topic: tsx "what the ####" (Read 2007 times)

Lloyd Smale · « **on:** September 01, 2011, 07:18:49 AM »

I shot a 100 lb doe last night with my 300 wby using a 180 tsx. deer was on the trott at about 150 yards and i led it a bit to much and hit it right in the sholder. Now when i gutted the deer it was a total mess. the gut sack was ripped open and the instestines were shreaded. When i hit the deer it ran about 150 yards dragging that leg. A couple things blew my mind. First all the damage. My first thought was that all the bone chips must have blew averywhere but the real odd thing was that there was no exit wound and not even any damgage on the far side shoulder. Now about any standard cup and core bullet would have done some damage on the far side sholder with a shot like that. No exit wound but an enteratace wound through the shoulder as big as a baseball. I never recovered a bullet. It was dark and it never crossed my mind and i went back today and looked through the rest of the gut pile and no bullet? I would almost have to think that the tsx just came apart totaly on that shoulder.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2011, 10:55:28 AM »

Sounds like the bullet blew up, sorta like a varmint bullet. Might be worth a call to Barnes. Aren't they supposed to just peel back and stay intact? Glad ya found out about it now instead of on a high dollar elk hunt or something of that nature.

HWD

shot1 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2011, 11:59:44 AM »

This is a shot in the dark. Could the bullet have hit the scapula right in the center where that little ridge runs down it and the bullet turned sideways and actually come back out in the entrance wound area? What happened does sound really weird.

Silvertp · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2011, 01:42:13 PM »

Lloyd...what you are describing is a true mystery according to what I (and most shooters) would expect from a TSX bullet. The projectile, even if carrying some serious velocity, should have held together, even on game a lot tougher than a whitetail. I could understand the damage occuring from secondary bone fragment projectiles, but the bullet coming apart?

? Were you finding any copper fragments in and amongst the damaged area?

What do you think...one more trip to the gutpile?

Would be nice to get to the bottom of this as I'm loading up 85 gr TSX in my 6mm for this deer season...with the expectation that I'll get lots of penetration from any angle.

Silvertp

AtlLaw · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2011, 03:07:38 PM »

Quote from: Silvertp on September 01, 2011, 01:42:13 PM

Would be nice to get to the bottom of this as I'm loading up 85 gr TSX in my 6mm for this deer season...with the expectation that I'll get lots of penetration from any angle.

Ditto! I was going to do some 'speramentin with them in my 243 Browning Lo Wall. I love the rifle but gave up on the 243. I was hoping the TSP (or TTSP) would perform as Silvertp expects. $:-\$

drdougrx · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2011, 04:38:35 PM »

Uh me too....going to use the 225gr TSX in 35whelen for nilgai and oryx next month in TX. Bullet failure is all I need.........

fastchicken · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2011, 05:08:40 PM »

To me it just sounds like she may have been at more of an angle than you thought, especially @150 yards 1/2 a step toward or away wouldn't be very noticeable at that range but that's all it would take to send a bullet to the opposite hindquarter. I've confused myself more than once about the angle a deer was when I shot it, thinking I'd find the exit/damage where it wasn't. I've also shot a few that I would swear were perfectly broadside only to find the exit a foot behind where the entry was.
I doubt that bullet came apart, I think the angle was different than you think, and bullet sometimes to strange things. I know of a guy who was shot with a 7.62x39, bullet hit his collarbone and deflected almost straight down, riding the inside of his ribs to exit out his lower back, took almost a 90 turn. Just a thought.

243dave · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2011, 05:34:35 PM »

I've had a experience or two with the regular x bullets in a 223wssm much like yours. When pushed real fast and shoulders are encountered the petals break off and go in random directions causing destruction in places where there should be none while the rest of the bullet continues on and makes a very small exit hole. Double check the hide and see if there is a small hole near where the exit should be, if not the remaining shank tipped on its side and penetration was shallow because of it.
Dave

streak · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2011, 05:52:10 PM »

Quote from: drdougrx on September 01, 2011, 04:38:35 PM

Uh me too....going to use the 225gr TSX in 35whelen for nilgai and oryx next month in TX. Bullet failure is all I need.........

Be sure and let us know how that 35 Whelen performs on a nilgai. Understand they can be pretty tough hombres!!

BBF · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2011, 08:11:29 PM »

Removed by myself, OFF TOPIC

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2011, 01:58:23 AM »

we went back last night and the gut pile was long gone. Critters ate it but unless they ate the bullet too it wasnt in there as the spot the pile was had no bullet. I looked very carefully for an exit wound on the whole deer and hide when i skinned it and nothing. There was no copper in the shoulder that i noticed but to be honest it was so nasty that i cut it off and let it drop into the garbage can i use for hides and scraps. But did look that over enough to notice i didnt seen an exit wound in it either. Now like a said it was nasty and i could have missed it. In my mind theres only two possible senerios here. One would be the bullet blew up and the other would be that i missed the exit wound in the leg and the bullet had tracked down lower through the leg and came out. That is a possiblilty because when i shot i was holding half way up on the deer and thats where the enterance wound was. But handling the deer it seemed like its leg was broke lower then the shot. To do this though would require that bullet to about take a 90 degree turn an inch into the shoulder which would for a barnes be about as odd as one comming apart. I too would like to know for sure. I rotate guns all through crop damage season and ive also got my 2506 and 257 wby loaded with tsx bullets this year. One thing ill say for sure though is that i was previously nervous about my past experinces with x bullets pensiling through animals without doing damage. I dont think ive seen much worse damage in my lifetime of hunting then this bullet did.

243dave · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2011, 02:29:02 AM »

Sounds like more testing is required.

BIG Dog454 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2011, 07:29:01 AM »

Lloyd: do you think that you are using enough gun

.
BD

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2011, 02:49:16 AM »

crop damage shooting is a bit differnt then normal season. Shots under 200 yards are about non exixtant. Most shots are out 300 yards and a bit more. Another thing is we want the deer down. We dont want them running off in the woods or running out into the crop where we would damage it getting them out. Granted even for this the 300 wby is a bit much. But its a good opertunity to try out differnt guns and loads to see how they work or live animals. You find out things like I found out here. I did contact barnes about this but havent heard back from them yet.

Silvertp · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2011, 01:39:20 PM »

Lloyd...

What say you extend your work with the Wby for 5 or 6 more deer. Would be nice to have a larger sample size before we all go crazy trying to figure out why you got the results you describe.

Once...who knows? Half a dozen times will paint a much clearer picture.

Silvertp

hillbill · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2011, 01:58:01 PM »

ive never had the exact same experience but i have definitly had bullets exit where they shouldnt of.i always thought it was just a case of the angle being different that what i thought it was.i have no idea of the construction of the bullet you used but it sounds like it might of had some kind of a defect.maybe the front or back of it had a air pocket in it.thats the only explanation i can come up with!

TXSPIKE · « **Reply #16 on:** September 05, 2011, 04:43:59 AM »

It sounds like the bullet may have struck the shoulder just right causing the bullet to expand only on one side,turning the bullet into the abdominal cavity.I shot a buck once that was on the side of a hill.The deer was nearly broadside to me.I was shooting a 7mag with 145gr Speer Grand Slams.I shot him right behind the shoulder at 150yds and he dropped.When I gutted him I noticed no exit which I never had that before.I also noticed some damage in the guts,not too much,but a little.What the heck?When I skinned the deer,I found the perfectly mushroomed bullet,just under the hide of the hindquarter on the opposite side he was hit on.The only explanation I could come up with was,when the bullet hit him on the side of the hill,it swung his body in the direction of the bullet travel.That was the strangest case of what happened that I've ever had.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #17 on:** September 07, 2011, 02:11:12 AM »

got a response from barnes but it wasnt what i expected. They said that any bullet can deflect and thats what probably happened. Im not buying though as the shot was dead on broadside and shot from a ground blind. It couldnt have been any more of a square hit. I figured theyd at least want to check out one of the bullets out of that lot but they acted like they just didnt care or didnt have the time. From there response i doubt that they would admitt a problem even if they found a defect. Sorry guys but im not to impressed with barnes right now.

wild willy · « **Reply #18 on:** September 07, 2011, 01:48:38 PM »

Any chance it could have hit something before the deer?I went to the TSX a couple years ago when I had Nosler BT blow up on a angle shot. Haven't had any trouble with the TSX haven't shot a whole lot with it.Now you got me thinking

fastchicken · « **Reply #19 on:** September 07, 2011, 02:59:49 PM »

Ask folks if hitting brush/sticks/twigs can deflect a shot and most will say it does, but for some reason the same people don't want to believe hitting flesh and bone on a moving animal can deflect a bullet, where's the logic behind that?
Granted, it may not happen often [bullets deflecting inside game], but it does happen and it seems that people think just because their bullet hit the animal it is immune to changing course.
But some people still probably don't believe you can skip a bullet off water.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** September 08, 2011, 02:10:57 AM »

no chance on brush. Im shooting in a farm field over potatoe plants.

fastchicken · « **Reply #21 on:** September 08, 2011, 03:17:22 AM »

Wasn't suggesting your shot hit something on the way there, just in general I think most would agree that hitting brush can deflect a bullet. So what's the difference in hitting brush or bone?

Austin from NC · « **Reply #22 on:** September 09, 2011, 12:16:14 AM »

If you shoot enough you will see things you think are impossible. Guess we can call that one a Barnes Harry Houdini.

Austin

Brithunter · « **Reply #23 on:** September 09, 2011, 03:22:44 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 07, 2011, 02:11:12 AM

got a response from barnes but it wasnt what i expected. They said that any bullet can deflect and thats what probably happened. Im not buying though as the shot was dead on broadside and shot from a ground blind. It couldnt have been any more of a square hit. I figured theyd at least want to check out one of the bullets out of that lot but they acted like they just didnt care or didnt have the time. From there response i doubt that they would admitt a problem even if they found a defect. Sorry guys but im not to impressed with barnes right now.

Sorry Lloyd but your surprised by Barnes response???

I am surprised they even replied. Just another good reason never to buy from them as far as I am concerned

.

JJHACK · « **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:11:26 PM »

A mushrooming bullet does not cause this kind of damage, velocity does.

As many of you know when you shoot a small animal with high velocity it blows up. Why? because the bullet mushrooms? I think not.......... no............ I know not!

Two things cannot occupy the same place at the same time. So when a bullet enters the body are likely over 3000fps the tissue is doing everything within the laws of physics to get the heck out of the way. This rush to escape the path of the bullet as the shock wave of energy blasts tissue out of the path of the bullet crushes and rips to bits everything surrounding the path.

This makes things very messy and creates massive destruction and trauma. It would happen with a monolithic solid, or a cup and core, the bullet construction is secondary to the velocity in most cases. Shoot a coyote with 3500fps 100 grain solid from a 25/06 and that coyote will be nearly cut in half, use a 100grain Vmax and the results are not much different.

The reason game seems to explode is that the structural integrity of the hide cannot contain the rapid expansion of the tissue. On bigger game the hide can contain the "explosion" and it seems fine from the outside, but the inside is blended into one big gooey mess!

A 300 WTBY is a very fast cartridge for a 100lb doe. I've seen the exact results on 90-100lb impala from 300 ultra, 300win, 7mm mag, and several other cartrdges of similar speed and bullet weights that my hunters use. I would not rule out the exit hole with a quick once over. I would not be at all surprised to see that there was a hole someplace on that deer and it's probably bore diameter or maybe even less as the bullet squeezed out the the skin and it recovered back to a very tiny little hole. The skin is so elastic that often it will contract right back to a pin hole looking hole rather then a 1" ripped open hole more common with an archery broad head.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** September 11, 2011, 02:08:17 AM »

thanks jj for the respose. I vaiue your opinion. I had another tsx failure or i guess partial faliure becase again im eating the animal. I shot one last night about a 100lbs at 350 with my 257 wby. A 100 grain tsx. At the shot the deer hunched up and ran and stopped at 430. I shot again and hit it in the spine and dropped it. I got over there and the deer was still alive. I cut its throat and gutted it. Opened it up and found little damage. When I skinned it at home there was some pretty massive damage on the spine but very little where i hit it through the ribs. Looked like the bullet went through with out hitting a rib. The lungs both had a dime sized hole in them and the exit was about the size of a quarter. To be honest im about ready to give up on these tsx bullets. Ive got my #1 2506 loaded with 80 grain tsxs to use next and it i get anymore poor performances out of then thats it for me.

BBF · « **Reply #26 on:** September 11, 2011, 06:25:06 AM »

Lloyd:
Have you tried Nosler PT's in those smaller cal.?

JJHawk. You last sentence re broadhead ripping the hide. IMO a clean cut would be a better term then rip.

IMO the shape/type of the bullet nose makes a difference in the destruction of tissue within the same velocity values.

charles p · « **Reply #27 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:03:37 PM »

Too much gun. My guess. Happened alot to hunters who loaded the early ballistic tips to max velocity.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #28 on:** September 12, 2011, 02:15:09 AM »

well strike three last night. Im done with these bullets. I shot another doe this time with a 2506 using an 80 grain tsx. Shot it at 350 yards. THe deer shot straight up in the air at the shot. I went over to the spot and looked for an hour for blood. I about knew i hit it as i heard the bullet strike and the reaction of the deer. I fianally found a real light blood trail that petered out after about 200 yards. I about gave up when i heard some rustling in the trees ahead. I kicked it back up and it went another couple hundred yards. this time again a light blood trail that was a bitch to follow. Well after two hours of tracking i found it dead. I figured i must have gut shot it but when i got there the deer had an exit hole perfectly in the chest. I opened it up and both lungs again had a pensil sized hole through them and i had about a quarter sized exit hole. These bullets even at top velocitys just dont open up fast enough to insure a quick kill. Im sure theyd be great for a guy who wants to tackle hunting an animal thats on the large size for the caliber hes using but there not the ticket from dropping deer.

Brithunter · « **Reply #29 on:** September 12, 2011, 03:25:12 AM »

Lloyd,

You must be doing something wrong as all the web "experts" and gun whores........whoops sorry writers say how wonderful Barnes are and how they always perform perfectly.......

yeah right. I have read too many posts like yours to believe those paid to push them products. Always thoguht they were over rated and over priced and will stick with normal bullets thank you. At least you found the deer.