PICS added - Extractor question!?!

[bikerbeans]

Hi All,
 
I have a pair of 444M barrels that are both Illion made extractor models.  I just noticed today on both of them that I have a problem with the extractor. The roll pin in the cam that sticks out of the sides of the lug that contacts the ledges inside the frame has deformed the metal on the bottom of the lug.  What has happened is everytime I open the gun to extract a shell this roll pin contacts the thin strip of metal at the bottom of the hole that is drilled in the underlug.  It has push this thin strip of metal down enough to be quite noticeable and I am afraid at some point one or both sides of the bottom of the lug are going to fail. 
 
Anyway, I am thinking about how to reinforce the deformed areas of the lug before they fail.  Any thoughts or ideas on how to fix this problem are greatly appreciated.  I know that my verbal description of things aren't the best so I will try and get a couple of pics to show the problem.
 
BTW, Quick will be proud of me, I actually control "F" the FAQs before posting this thread.
 
thanks
 
BB
 
The deformed metal is kinda visible in the pics, one side is worse than the other side.  The second 444 barrel lug looks alot worse.

[quickdtoo]

Yup, I've suspected that may be a problem, when I modifiy an underlug for conversion from ejector to extractor, I leave more material there so it's not so thin. Maybe Brian can get them to change their setup so they don't cut it so close to the bottom of the underlug. I'd probably solder or epoxy a piece of steel to the bottom on each side to reinforce it after flattening it out, at least as thick as space allows.

Tim

[gendoc]

i'm glad my last eject to extrac conversion was ona 258 handy gun II 357max last week.
it was simple and plain'ol nickle'd iron... what a joy!!!  
they ain't made like they use ta be...........no!!!
things have become skimpy and delicate

[PHATINJUN]

BB I think if you hit it with a bead of Tig weld it will stabilize it. kurt

[gcrank1]

Weld would, if it didnt burn it through at the thinnest point as the bead carries across (Ive seen it on other stuff similar to this). One of the keys to small welding jobs it to not use too big a rig, though Im sure some more experienced welders here can tell us much more about this.
Pack some compressible material in the bottom (modeling clay?) and close everything up; see how much room you have underneath for mods.

[quickdtoo]

I think the best welding option would be to weld the entire hole solid, then redrill and mill it. One member here who hasn't posted for years has done extensive welding on the underlug pivot, he used water flowing thru the bore to keep things cool.

Tim

[bikerbeans]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.  I will think about it a bit, welding is out of the question as the doctor/wife made me sell my welders and torch set.    I will probably go the glue/shim route, maybe Loctite 380, and see how it goes.  FWIW, I will take (at least) 50% responsibility for this problem because it is caused by sticky cartridge extraction.  You use more force to open the gun after firing and when the shell breaks free it pounds the roll pin into the bottom of the lug opening.  The 410 hulls I fire in the 444M barrel are weak and expand just enough to require a little extra force to open the gun.  After a few hundred rounds you can see what it does to the lug.
 
BB

[gcrank1]

BB, can you also use a longer roll pin (and 'custom trim' it to barely clear the frame on barrel install) to help distribute the load over a wider area?

[bikerbeans]

BB, can you also use a longer roll pin (and 'custom trim' it to barely clear the frame on barrel install) to help distribute the load over a wider area?

gcrank1,
 
A longer roll pin wouldn't change the area of bearing surface on the inside of the lug.  A roll pin with a larger diameter might help but would need to study that and make sure it wouldn't interfere with the extractor operation.  I am also thinking of getting a piece of stainless steel tubing to install inside the two holes in the lug, kinda like installing a cylinder liner on a worn out diesel engine.  Thought being the SS tube would be stronger than the steel of the lug and might hold up better. 
 
BB

[gcrank1]

Ahhhh, wasnt thinkin' straight......too much bathroom plumbing on my brain!

[Spanky]

I'd get ahold of H&R and try to get a new barrel from them. It seems like it's a design problem and they should make it right.
 
 
 
Spanky

[bikerbeans]

Spanky,
 
A new barrel with the same design on the lug would result in the same problem.  The metal is just too thin to handle the repeated impacts of opening the gun with a tight shell in the chamber.  Besides, the barrels I have are probably my most accurate Handi barrels and they ain't leavin' .  I do feel that a lot of this problem is because of the 410 hulls I am shooting and my thought is if I can make the gun shoot the 410 slugs accurately I can figure out a way to resolve this lug problem.  I've got less than 3 months to the deer gun opener so I had better figure it out.
 
BB

[gcrank1]

When I get sticky brass cases I back my loads off, dont know if the plastic hulls with the (brass plated steel bases?) will respond in a similar way or if you would have to back off way too much, but it 'might be worth a shot'?

[bikerbeans]

When I get sticky brass cases I back my loads off, dont know if the plastic hulls with the (brass plated steel bases?) will respond in a similar way or if you would have to back off way too much, but it 'might be worth a shot'?

I have tried Trail Boss and the hulls still stick.  The TB loads was 700 fps slower than my normal hunting load.
 
BB

[gcrank1]

And carry a slingshot for backup!
Peen the bulges back down, IF there is enough room underneath, make a short tool steel strip for each side and SuperGlue them on (just to locate them). Have a good welder TIG them on at each end, which wont be directly over the thin spot so you wont get burn through.
I used to have a magician for a welder, big stuff to small. For jobs like this he would use really small tips on a gas torch and a magnifier. He, sadly, is gone now, like so many of our 'old school' craftsmen.

[gcrank1]

Another thought:
Remove all the extractor stuff
Mount the barrel in a mill vise
Mill a dovetail slot over the weak area, and well outboard of it, and as deep as the hole edge
Make a tool steel dovetail insert, as thick as you can get away with
Press or Locktight it in
Install the guts
Good to go