Author Topic: A real 38 auto ? (Read 2051 times)

SHOOTALL · « **on:** September 06, 2011, 05:28:01 AM »

A real 38 auto ? Not a 9mm (.356), not a .357 but a .38 . Make it 10mm length . Give it the speed of a 10mm or 357 mag. With the larger dia it may out preform the 357 mag and the gun and mag would hold lots of ammo. A second choice would be to use a .40 S&W length cart. If S&W took it up it could be the 38 S&WSD ( self defense. )

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #1 on:** September 06, 2011, 02:22:05 PM »

.22 short, .22 LR, .25 ACP, .30 Carbine, .32 ACP, 7.63 mm Mauser, 7.62 X 25 mm Tokarev, .380 ACP, 9mm Largo, 9MM Luger/ Parabellum, .357 Automag, .357 SIG, .38 Auto, .38 Super, .356 TSW, 9X23, 10 mm Auto, .40 S&W, .40 CorBon, .41 Avenger, .45 ACP, .451 Detonics, .45 Super, .44 AutoMag, .475 Wildey, .50 AE. and probably at least a dozen more that I can't readily think of ... yeah, it's very obvious we really need another semi auto cartridge.

.

Then there's the .357 Magnum out of the Coonan and Desert Eagle, and the .41 and .44 Magnums also out of the DE

. Whew.

Not bein' critical ... just sayin' ....

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** September 07, 2011, 03:15:15 AM »

We serach for the better mouse trap. A true .38 could offer better BC over a .40 and better frontal area over a .357. The .357 goes back to the 36 cap and ball load. It was a conssesion at best to use up existing bbl stocks. It could equal or pass the .357 mag in preformance if done correctly. It could be had in bullet weights from 115 to 200 gr.
I doubt that it will happen but it could be better than either the 41 mag or 10 mm in usefulness . In a 40 length case it could add more round count over the 357 sig maybe. With better preformance ?
The 50 cal. is max allowed by law and the 17 is about as small as is useful and both are covered . It might be time to fill in the gaps ?

butchen · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2011, 04:46:31 AM »

Quote from: Ken ONeill on September 06, 2011, 02:22:05 PM

.22 short, .22 LR, .25 ACP, .32 ACP, 7.63 mm Mauser, 7.62 X 25 mm Tokarev, .380 ACP, 9mm Largo, 9MM Luger/ Parabellum, .357 Automag, .357 SIG, .38 Super, .356 TSW, 9X23, 10 mm Auto, .40 S&W, .40 CorBon, .41 Avenger, .45 ACP, .451 Detonics, .45 Super, .44 AutoMag, .475 Wildey, .50 AE. and probably at least a dozen more that I can't readily think of ... yeah, it's very obvious we really need another semi auto cartridge. .

Then there's the .357 Magnum out of the Coonan and Desert Eagle, and the .41 and .44 Magnums also out of the DE . Whew.

Not bein' critical ... just sayin' ....

Ken you can't forget the .50GI someone will be hurt if you forget one..........

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2011, 05:16:35 AM »

How about the 38 super and others ? or the 400 Cor-Bon

Axehandle · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2011, 06:03:42 AM »

How about cutting it back to .375 to save a few bucks? Instead of larger cases like the 45 WM etc., maybe neck the 40 bore 10mm back to .375 to keep more steel in the chamber area. Get ready to spend some money. Ask Gary Reeder what it costs to develop a new cartridge from scratch!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2011, 06:06:21 AM »

with a 10mm chamber it would have less steel in the chamber area if OD was same. And I would leave it to one of the big co's not my bucks

MGMorden · « **Reply #7 on:** September 08, 2011, 09:36:31 AM »

Quote

The .357 goes back to the 36 cap and ball load. It was a conssesion at best to use up existing bbl stocks.

That seems a bit unlikely, given that .357 is well, .357", and the barrel width on the original 36 cap and ball guns was .375" (hence why the outer diameter of the .38 Short Colt was .375"). As a matter of fact, the earliest .357" rounds (.38 Long Colt) typically had a reputation for poor accuracy out of .36 cap and ball conversions due to them not really making good contact with the rifling.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #8 on:** September 08, 2011, 10:32:04 AM »

Since you want a 357 projectile and a full sized frame.
Years ago some one necked 45 ACP to all bullet sizes and played with it.
I think a 45 ACP, 50 AE, or a 50 GI case necked to 357 and using the little gun powders you may be able to launch the 125 grain SJHP to 1400 FPS and stay with in the pressure limits of most auto guns. The 125 grain Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) at 1400 FPS is what has made the 375 Mag the number one , "One stop shot".
Another option is to take 44 Auto mag case (308 base cut to 44 Mag length and a 429 Bullet stuck in) they made a 357 version of it that was really hot.
I think taking the standard case and cutting and necking the length of 45ACP / 10mm would give you the volume of a 357 Mag.

williamlayton · « **Reply #9 on:** September 08, 2011, 09:53:57 PM »

I think you already have the .38 auto you are talking about in the .38 super.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2011, 03:05:13 AM »

Quote from: MGMorden on September 08, 2011, 09:36:31 AM

Quote
The .357 goes back to the 36 cap and ball load. It was a conssesion at best to use up existing bbl stocks.

That seems a bit unlikely, given that .357 is well, .357", and the barrel width on the original 36 cap and ball guns was .375" (hence why the outer diameter of the .38 Short Colt was .375"). As a matter of fact, the earliest .357" rounds (.38 Long Colt) typically had a reputation for poor accuracy out of .36 cap and ball conversions due to them not really making good contact with the rifling.

You are correct , Somewhere I read the BP and modern were mesured different , it may have been an article about the 38-40 .

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2011, 03:10:27 AM »

Not a .357 Manny or a .355 william a true .38 . A 38 super is just a smaller bullet. With a true .38 a 160-180 gr bullet should be doable. Or a 125-130 to match the 357 mag in preformance as a one shot stopper .

rawhidekid · « **Reply #12 on:** September 09, 2011, 09:28:59 PM »

A 38 Super can do the 125 grn and evan the 160 grain no problem. I have shot the 357 lead without a hitch, you would need to check the diameter of your particular barrel. 38 Supers have been sized as small as 355 and are supposed to be 356 depending witch artical you read.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** September 12, 2011, 02:36:32 AM »

I'm not talking building , I'm talking a company building them in mass.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #14 on:** September 12, 2011, 12:03:01 PM »

Is there really a diff between the .355 of 9mm, 38 super, 357 sig and all out of an auto over the proposed 357 round moving at the same speeds? Or when you say 38 are you talking a 375 or larger bullet like 38-55 or a short 375 Win using the 235 grain bullets? Looking at the 300 grain boat tail 375 bullets I have for my 375H&H they are longer as a loaded 45 ACP round.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** September 13, 2011, 02:17:37 AM »

.380 not .355 or .357
for use in an auto loading pistol. not as big as a .40 but larger than whats aval.in 38/357. Should be able to match/exceed 357 mag preformance and hold more rounds than a 40S&W. Whats not to like ? It would give the bullet people a clean slate to come up with good bullets. It would give the gun makers a clean slate to work with higher pressures with out fear of someone using wrong round in a gun not able to take pressure. it could be used in rifles ( think AR). It could be used with clips in a revolver . It would be something new not reinvented , not streached and not reworked .

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #16 on:** September 14, 2011, 09:11:06 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on September 13, 2011, 02:17:37 AM

.380 not .355 or .357
for use in an auto loading pistol. not as big as a .40 but larger than whats aval.in 38/357. Should be able to match/exceed 357 mag preformance and hold more rounds than a 40S&W. Whats not to like ? It would give the bullet people a clean slate to come up with good bullets. It would give the gun makers a clean slate to work with higher pressures with out fear of someone using wrong round in a gun not able to take pressure. it could be used in rifles ( think AR). It could be used with clips in a revolver . It would be something new not reinvented , not streached and not reworked .

OH. Ok. I understand you do not want to take an existing case and modify it but start from scratch and design a .38 caliber bullet at speeds.

Mikey · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2011, 02:23:14 AM »

Hey Shootall: How about the old 401 Winchester, or maybe a rimless 7.62x39 case with a true .380" or even .385" diameter bullet in the 150 - 250 range with a average bullet weight in the 180 - 200gn range, moving at say 11 - 1200 from a autoloader?? Just a thought..

williamlayton · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2011, 03:27:07 AM »

I am still confused.
Please tell me that a .001 makes a difference in what it is called.
All can be loaded into the different cases and shot from the different weapons.
Blessings

rawhidekid · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2011, 05:47:27 PM »

I fail to see how a .356 at 1300 from a 38 Super would be less desirable.

rawhidekid · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2011, 05:57:09 PM »

As far as that goes, I can run a 124grn GDHP at 1312 w/9.2 grns of Blue Dot, (pg 63 of Alliant Powder booklet). That should do as good as the old 125 grn 357.

I understand you are wanting something new, but if the factories would just produce 38 Super rounds at their full potential you would have it now. And EAA does it with 16 in the mag.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2011, 07:13:16 AM »

Its not about what is aval. Its starting with a clean slate and going after a target, The 357 mag. in an auto. In a package with lots of ammo.
Will .001 make a difference maybe if bullet shape is part of the difference. Maybe not if the same old profiles are used. Why is the .357 bullet a 92% + one shot stopper while the .355 bullet is not ? The idea is to take the best qualities and put them together in a hopefully better gun/round. No other gun would fire the round so the sky is the limit on the power that it can produce , only the NEW gun would limit it. No worry about a round slipping in an old worn out gun.

HEY , we didn't have a 10 mm or a 40 not so long ago but I think they have fared well.
As for the rifle rounds that would take much to large a gun for this project but I like the idea .

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2011, 07:18:07 AM »

Quote from: rawhidekid on September 15, 2011, 05:57:09 PM

As far as that goes, I can run a 124grn GDHP at 1312 w/9.2 grns of Blue Dot, (pg 63 of Alliant Powder booklet). That should do as good as the old 125 grn 357. I understand you are wanting something new, but if the factories would just produce 38 Super rounds at their full potential you would have it now. And EAA does it with 16 in the mag.

This is what I suggest to avoid , the round getting in a gun not suitable for it. I agree if bullet prifile could be the same in the super as it was in the 357 M it would most likely do as well. The bullet shape could be taken into account as the bbl and feeding process is designed for the new round. The JSWC HP seems to be the holy grail of handgun bullets .

rawhidekid · « **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2011, 04:33:59 PM »

I sighted a load out of a reputable loading manual, what is 'not suitable ' about it?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:57:11 AM »

Wasn't talking about your load , was talking safety in general. With regard to your suggested load , any load with equal bullet construction and equal velocity that was larger in diameter and maybe weight could/should be expected to preform better. Like I stated a clean slate.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #25 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:05:39 AM »

didn't they do that when making th 10mm it is a .40 rather than a .38 but meets your criteria.
would you scale up an existing round or scale down one to start with? Browning scalled up 30-06 to make the 50BMG and scaled down the 45 ACP to make 380 ACP?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:56:03 AM »

not sure ,

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:56:42 AM »

i thought it was after the 41 mag in an auto .

Austin from NC · « **Reply #28 on:** September 30, 2011, 09:45:58 AM »

Don't complicate things I thing he wants a 357mag performance auto with the bullet being .380 and not .357. A round directly between the 357mag and 10mm right?

Austin

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2011, 10:41:53 AM »

Yes , A new round with new specs. not a redo . A new gun with new round .