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Author Topic: Cost of machine work?  (Read 979 times)

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Offline jamesbeat

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Cost of machine work?
« on: September 06, 2011, 06:31:29 AM »
Hi guys, I'm new here, but I have been 'lurking' for a while and learning a lot.

I have wanted a cannon for as long as I can remember, and indeed I have made a couple of small ones.
I have made a nano mortar in BB caliber, and I also made a tiny little cannon in .31. Both were made using only a cordless drill, files and a hacksaw.
The nano mortar actually looks quite good, the cannon not so much :D

I have come to terms with the fact that I will only be happy once I own a 1" bore cannon.

Unfortunately, money is an issue. For some reason, my wife has got it into her head that our money is for rent, food, our new baby etc, so I don't have a great deal of disposable income.

I have been considering buying a chunk of steel and having a machine shop bore it for me, and add trunnion pockets.
I have priced the steel, and I can get a piece of 3" x 12" 1018 from speedy metals for around $55 shipped.

I have a couple of questions:

Is $55 a reasonable price for the steel?
I don't live near any metal supply places so buying online is much easier.

What is a machine shop likely to charge to bore a 1" x 10" hole in the thing? How about the trunnion pockets?
 I have never used the services of a machine shop, so I literally do not have the slightest idea whether this would cost $20 or $200.


The idea is to have the barrel made as above, and then maybe have the outside turned to shape some time in the future.

Also, I was wondering if it would be at all feasible to drill it myself using my cordless drill?
I have drilled straight holes in steel many times before, and I figure once I get the hole deep enough, it would keep the drill bit straight by itself.
Is that idea as dumb as it sounds?
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 07:07:29 AM »
Wecome jamesbeat , IF I were you and didn't have a 'thing' about making it myself I would look up a sponser to make it . If you dont have accsess to a lathe ,you dont have much chance of making a nice one . How deep is the bore ? I'd forget about the hand drill .... :o
 
Welcome and good luck .
 
Gary
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Offline Mike Scott

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 07:30:48 AM »
For that size, you can buy one cheaper than you can tool up and make one.  You will not be satisfied with 1".  You will want more :)  At least go for a golf ball size.   
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 07:37:56 AM »
I most definitely do have a 'thing' for making it myself, but I am doubtful about the feasibility of doing so without a lathe.
I've built many things before, including an AK type rifle from a parts kit and receiver flat, and I keep thinking 'how difficult can it be to bore a 1" hole in a piece of steel?'.
Unfortunately it probably IS quite difficult :D

I was planning on a bore length of around 10". In a 12" barrel, that would give me 1" of breathing room if I decided to bolt on a cascabel.

To me, the satisfaction of making it myself would vastly outweigh the fact that a plain tube would be less aesthetically pleasing than a nicely turned one, but I could always do that at a later date anyway.

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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 07:45:21 AM »
Lol I decided to go with 1" because I want a reasonably small cannon for July 4th salutes and the occasional projectile.
I did a lot of thinking before I came to this conlusion, and I'm already getting peer pressure to go bigger :D
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Zulu

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 07:56:39 AM »
jamesbeat,
Welcome! ;D
To drill a 1" hole 10" deep will require a really expensive drill bit.  And if you had one, I don't think a cordless drill would drive it.  Unless you are prepared to gear up it might be better to get a barrel from a sponsor and build a carriage for it yourself. 
You bought your AK as a parts kit.  Think of this the same way.
Or else be prepared to tell the wife to go without shoes for a few years. :o :o :o
Zulu
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 08:22:09 AM »
I did actually contact one of the sponsors last week.
He makes some really nice stuff and his prices are extremely reasonable, but unfortunately he no longer makes barrels that big any more.
All the other places I've looked are charging way more than I can afford right now.
Don't get me wrong, they make some nice pieces, but I'm not particularly bothered about historical accuracy etc.
All I really want is a cyliner of steel with a hole in it (and trunnions obviously) :D
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline armorer77

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »
You can consider $50 per hr. minimum for machine time . Most places will be closer to $100 per hr.   Ed
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 01:25:03 PM »
Welcome to the board, jamesbeat. Reply #7: That member responding to one of your questions is a sponsor, and he makes barrels that big for very reasonable prices.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 03:18:17 PM »
Most typical machine shops do not like one piece jobs and set their prices to discourage them.  Also, in this increasingly lawyer driven world, they don't like the idea of getting sued if someone does something stupid and wants them to pay for it.  You have to look around and find someone who likes the idea of cannon making.
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Offline IvarForkbeard

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 03:46:21 PM »
Quote from: GGaskill on September 07, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
Most typical machine shops do not like one piece jobs and set their prices to discourage them.  Also, in this increasingly lawyer driven world, they don't like the idea of getting sued if someone does something stupid and wants them to pay for it.  You have to look around and find someone who likes the idea of cannon making.

Or someone local that has the machinery, time on their hands and a willingness to teach......
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Offline irishman

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 05:51:34 AM »
jamesbeat,
 
     Consider this solution because:  A. It won't take your wife's shoes...which would just make more mouths to feed.
                                     B. It will cause your wife to love cannon just as you do.
                                     C.  You will have the satisfaction of doing it right.
 
Get some side income, buy a small house with a garage. (this is the perfect time)
Buy a large, old lathe and have the time of your life, and if you really like it, build some for others and pay down your house.
 
BTW, some of your design thoughts may be dangerous.
 
                                                   Michael
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2011, 06:31:23 AM »
Quote from: irishman on September 08, 2011, 05:51:34 AM
jamesbeat,
 
     Consider this solution because:  A. It won't take your wife's shoes...which would just make more mouths to feed.
                                     B. It will cause your wife to love cannon just as you do.
                                     C.  You will have the satisfaction of doing it right.
 
Get some side income, buy a small house with a garage. (this is the perfect time)
Buy a large, old lathe and have the time of your life, and if you really like it, build some for others and pay down your house.
 
BTW, some of your design thoughts may be dangerous.
 
                                                   Michael



Lol well, that would be a nice thing to do in the future, but it's more of a long term solution :D
I'm talking to someone who should be able to help me out, so watch this space....

Which part of my design thoughts may be dangerous?
I was under the impression that if the cannon is bored from solid steel, and the 1/3 rule is obeyed, the risk of a kaboom is pretty much negated?

 I'm pretty new at all this, so if I've made a mistake, I'd appreciate the guidance.
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2011, 07:26:15 AM »
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Offline irishman

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2011, 07:59:09 AM »
jamesbeat,
 
     I was concerned that your comment re bolting on a casible could breech the 1/3 rule at the breech.
 
                               Michael
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 08:27:40 AM »
Quote from: irishman on September 08, 2011, 07:59:09 AM
jamesbeat,
 
     I was concerned that your comment re bolting on a casible could breech the 1/3 rule at the breech.
 
                               Michael

Nope, I planned for that:
I was planning on a bore length of around 10". In a 12" barrel, that would give me 1" of breathing room if I decided to bolt on a cascabel.
The idea being that I would have an extra inch of material to work with, while still leaving 1" of solid material in the breech area, ie 1 bore diameter.
Thanks for your concern though, the more pairs of eyes on a project, the less chance of mistakes.
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 08:42:39 AM »
Quote from: flagman1776 on September 08, 2011, 07:26:15 AM
ANYTHING can be blown up...  with the wrong loads or enough powder.  The 1/3 rule is a standard which is generally safe with the proper loads for the bore size. 
 
There are accident risks besides explosions which could injure crew or spectators.   This is a great hobby...  but like other fun hobbies...  includes an element of risk.  We minimize this risk by becoming educated, ensuring all the participants follow the safest proceedures possible.
 
Other hobbies:
any shooting sports
scuba diving
sky diving
bicycle racing
motorcycle racing
auto racing
etc

It's not just hobbies, you could add crossing the street, driving, any number of things to that list.
With modern steels, I think the 1/3 rule is overkill, but I also think there's nothing wrong with a bit of overkill when it comes to safety.
I've read about people making cannon from things like DOM tubing etc, and that this can be safe as long as the weld areas are inspected regularly and so forth.
This would keep me awake at night.
The only type of construction I would be happy with is a hole bored in a solid billet of steel, and obeying the 1/3 rule.
The way I see it, a cannon constructed in this manner could easily last a hundred years with basic care, and still be perfectly safe to fire.

It's never going to be 100%, but I'm happy that a cannon constructed in the above manner would provide a margin of safety that I would be happy with, ie. if used correctly, the chance of a catastrophe is extremely unlikely.

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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline flagman1776

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 09:07:14 AM »
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Offline Double D

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 10:20:52 AM »
Quote from: jamesbeat on September 08, 2011, 08:42:39 AM


With modern steels, I think the 1/3 rule is overkill, but I also think there's nothing wrong with a bit of overkill when it comes to safety.
I've read about people making cannon from things like DOM tubing etc, and that this can be safe as long as the weld areas are inspected regularly and so forth.
This would keep me awake at night.
The only type of construction I would be happy with is a hole bored in a solid billet of steel, and obeying the 1/3 rule.
The way I see it, a cannon constructed in this manner could easily last a hundred years with basic care, and still be perfectly safe to fire.


It is not overkill.

First why would want to ignore a safety rule, because you can? Because you want to use a specific piece of material.  Bad reasons both.

Second if you build a replica of a pre 1899  design, the only type cannon we discuss here, and it is a muzzle loader with only one or two exceptions you will find that the one caliber wall thickness was part of the original design.
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 11:16:18 AM »
I'm not ignoring the safety rule.
The 1/3 rule is overkill-with modern steels, it would be easy to make a barrel much thinner.
However, if you read my post again, you'll see that I still believe that the 1/3 rule is sensible- you can't have too much safety.
I would not consider owning a cannon that did not meet the 1/3 rule, nor would I consider owning anything made from pipe or with a welded breech plug.
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He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline little seacoast

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 12:12:35 PM »
PM sent. 
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Offline DaveSB

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 12:34:57 PM »
Welcome, we charge $100 an hour for machine work. Minimum charge of 1 hour.
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Offline Zulu

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Re: Cost of machine work?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 12:49:14 PM »
Quote from: DaveSB on September 08, 2011, 12:34:57 PM
Welcome, we charge $100 an hour for machine work. Minimum charge of 1 hour.

Good advice cost a little more.  Go ahead and send a check. ;D
Zulu
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