Author Topic: vertical stringing and generaly lousy grouping with 45-70 (Read 1481 times)

SJan45 · « **on:** September 10, 2011, 07:24:03 AM »

I'm still new to this rifle, 150 rounds fired so far.
See my rifle here: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,239070.0.html

First 50 were horrible, all over the paper. Those groups looked like this

note: my scope was bore-sighted, then adjusted a little, and has not been adjusted since. Everything is tight and has not budged.
I was patient and kept shooting hoping things would tighten up over time.

See my rifle here: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,239070.0.html

I'm mostly shooting 405gr cast lead over reloader 7. Here are my groups from today at 100 yards, using a ammo can and sand bag under the receiver, just ahead of the trigger guard.

There were shot with 36,38,40 grains of powder. A good amount of powder was left in the barrel, I did use a good crimp when loading. I pushed a dry patch down the barrel after each shot to get the some of the fouling out.
I'm sure there are many factors that could cause my reloads to shoot lousy. Anyone else have bad luck with 405gr in their handy? I could try a different powder because I have 200 more of these bullets, any recomendations on powder?

This photo showing the vertical stringing was shot with Hornady leverevolution 325gr FTX.
What do you think caused this?

jimbobb55 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:15:43 AM »

300 gr. HP hornady 35 grs. 4198

jimbobb55 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:18:24 AM »

Check the crown and bore...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:23:50 AM »

Read the Handi Basics sticky and the accurizing help in the FAQs, the cast bullets are likely too small to shoot well, .459"-.461" usually work best, the biggest cast bullet you can chamber is the rule, try one of your bullets in a fired, unsized case, make sure all of the crimp is removed, if it drops right in, it's too small.

Tim

bikerbeans · « **Reply #4 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:24:47 AM »

SJan,

On the 325 Hornady's I would check stock bolt torque, scope rail is properly bed, scope not loose and verify the gun is latched properly. My experience with that type of group there is usually something moving with the rifle. A hot barrel can also cause your stringing but I have noticed that mostly on the small bottleneck rounds, not the 45 cal rifle loads.

there are probably other issues affecting your lead groups (patterns), like too small OD of a bullet would be first to check but could be any number of things going one there.

I would run through the FAQs and read everything on improving accuracy. Shooting the gun rested w/o the forestock is also a must in the process of making your gun shoot well.

Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

BB

newdad · « **Reply #5 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:26:01 AM »

my handi loves the remington 405 gr bullets loaded with 4198 powder, it will cloverleaf three shots at 100 yards off a crappy rest and my shaky hands behind it.

petemi · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2011, 08:46:38 AM »

Quote from: newdad on September 10, 2011, 08:26:01 AM

my handi loves the remington 405 gr bullets loaded with 4198 powder, it will cloverleaf three shots at 100 yards off a crappy rest and my shaky hands behind it.

Ditto.

Pete

SJan45 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2011, 09:41:38 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on September 10, 2011, 08:23:50 AM

the cast bullets are likely too small to shoot well, .459"-.461" usually work best

This is probably the case, the bullets i''m using are .458

I'll have to do the lead sinker pushed down the barrel thing.

I know very little of casting and sizing lead bullets, but can a .458 bullet be resized to a .460?

jparedes · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2011, 10:36:59 AM »

Measuring the groves and lands of your barrel is imperative.

I'm sure that after you do, you will come to the realization that .458" might not be enough. For my rifle, .458" bullets are OK (now I'm doing 2" groups at 100yrds) but I already ordered a batch of .459" to see if there is going to be an improvement.

In any case, 405 gr bullets, according to most experienced opinions in this forum, are like the perfect recipe for this barrel.

Please check visually the inside of your barrel to make sure the rifling spirals evenly from end to end. (I got mine initially with a faulty rifling).

Casting good bullets is difficult and at the beginning frustrating because any little imperfection will reflect in the size of your groupings.

For now, I strongly recommend you to get a batch of 50 0.459" bullets from a good supplier such as Montana Bullet Works. That guy really knows what he is doing. That will eliminate doubts about the actual bullets and put the onus in the rifle and your load development.

Ah, by the way, how do you know if your scope is still good? Not too many scopes can handle repeated 45-70 impacts. In the cheap department, I only buy scopes designed for air rifles. Air rifles' internal recoil destroys normal scopes in no time. And air rifle's scopes are built to take it. Otherwise, stick to Leupold scopes.

I think you will have to accept the loses with the bullets you currently have.

thejanitor · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2011, 10:48:56 AM »

When we got our 45-70s we bought some cast bullets from a guy who didn't want them anymore... cloverleafed at 100. ran out and bought some other 405 cast bullets... HOLY COW all over tumbling and key holeing... They were smaller diameter. after getting the right sized ones again we were back to good groups. So cast bullets are a whole different animal than jacketed.... The above advice is good once you know your bore size and adjust bullet diameter to match you will love the 45-70! thejanitor

Spanky · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2011, 10:57:28 AM »

My cast boolits had to be .460 to shoot good. Anything smaller wouldn't group worth beans.

Spanky

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:58:31 PM »

DO NOT trust what the package , or bullet mould, says the bullet dia. is supposed to be, you gotta mic them to know for sure.
BIG +1 on what Quick said regarding fit!!!
Yes, you can 'bump up' a .458, but you have to have the right size (desired finish size) die to squeeze them from the top and bottom (this best done on a reloading press with a special top 'plug' set up). Not just something one buys off the shelf........
How fast are you driving those and what alloy are they made of, gas checked or not?

The vert. stringing you show with a group happening is maybe from an inconsistent placing of the buttstock on your shoulder and/or placement of yourself behind it on the bench. With a kicker it has to be perfectly the same shot to shot.

gendoc · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »

Quote from: petemi on September 10, 2011, 08:46:38 AM

Quote from: newdad on September 10, 2011, 08:26:01 AM
my handi loves the remington 405 gr bullets loaded with 4198 powder, it will cloverleaf three shots at 100 yards off a crappy rest and my shaky hands behind it.

Ditto.

Pete

me too, but i use 32grs of imr-4227.... 1550fps.
i jus luv them 405 sjfp rems

and we use 38gr wif tha 300gr sjhp 1980fps and it will let you know who's boss too

by far, one of the most accurate rifles i have along side my "39"... and there handi's

took manya pinks from high dollar rifles shooters with these'ol $250 "cheap singleshots"

i love it !!!!!! can't getta nuff of it !!! and mitey proud of it !!!

SJan45 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »

I'm using the 'cowboy' bullets from Rimrockbullets.net. They are 15BNH and with 36 grains of reloader 7 at 1510 fps.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 11, 2011, 05:27:05 AM »

If those are hardcast and a bit undersize they wont bump up to fill the bore when it goes off. Did you try sticking one into a fired case to see if it drops right in or not? (remember to flare out any residual crimp that may be at the case mouth first)
Even if it does, I would try using a load to duplicate the old black powder velocity, say about 1250-1300fps and see what you get. That might mean a different powder, Im not a user of Rel.7 so I dont know how it responds to downloading (some powders are touchy about that).
Rule of thumb: Keep plain base bullets under 1400ish fps, use gas check bullets to go faster, use jacketed for really fast. (if you pick a load for a similar weight jacketed bullet to use with lead bullets, the lead will go faster by 100-150fps because of less friction)

SJan45 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 16, 2011, 02:18:01 PM »

A new bullet did not drop into a fired case, I did slightly flair first.
I slugged the barrel with a lead sinker, If I understand correctly I should use .459 or possibly even .460 lead bullets.

Thanks for all the replies, I have many things to try out. I'll order some different bullets for sure. I'll also try a different powder and the .458 bullets I have at a lower velocity.

Whopper · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2011, 12:27:19 AM »

I like the Montana Precision lead 405 gr. (.459 dia.) with 4198 powder pushed to around 1300 fps. Not a lot of kick and can shoot all day long. There is never any excess powder in the barrel and my groups are about 2" @ 100 yards with open sights. I've also had very good luck with the lead 385 gr. by Montana as well. Hope this helps.

XD40SC · « **Reply #17 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:46:53 AM »

Quote from: petemi on September 10, 2011, 08:46:38 AM

Quote from: newdad on September 10, 2011, 08:26:01 AM
my handi loves the remington 405 gr bullets loaded with 4198 powder, it will cloverleaf three shots at 100 yards off a crappy rest and my shaky hands behind it.

Ditto.

Pete

Double ditto - it's what I use to shoot 300 yds, so it will work.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 17, 2011, 06:03:56 AM »

If a .458 bullet wont easily fit into a fire formed case mouth a .459 or .460 wont either, they will just get squeezed down (thus get smaller) or (worse) expand the brass neck to the point that a loaded cartridge may not easily slip into the chamber or eject/extract once jammed in there.
I know conventional wisdom says to use a cast bullet at least groove dia. of the bore, but with a tight case neck situation, as you describe, it wont fit. You can neck turn the brass to a thinner wall thickness to hold a larger dia. bullet and thus not exceed the overall loaded dia. for the chamber. Sometimes a different brand of brass is just enough thinner too.
Or, load the .458s at a velocity that wont exceed the capability of the alloy to hold the rifling and still 'bump up' as it hits the bore after ignition. Lots of guys have done it this way with success, so you wont be reinventing the wheel. If these bullets are too hard to bump up you can try a softer alloy on the next go round.

SJan45 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:29:27 AM »

I made it to the range today to try a different load.

Using the same 405g bullets
30g H4198. At 1200 fps

10 shot group of 4 inches at 100 yards. 7/10 were inside 3 inches.

I think that's the best my skills can do with this rifle.
I am very happy with these results.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:50:11 AM »

Without reading all the posts again, this is with the peep and globe sights? They can take some adjustment (of the shooter), in spite of all the comments of how the rear peep 'will automatically center the eye' I have personally messed that up and blown more than one group!
If you want to really know how accurate it is you will need to scope it. This is soooo easy with an H&R. Once you have faith in how well it shoots you can go back to irons and try to shoot as small groups as before.

Austin from NC · « **Reply #21 on:** October 01, 2011, 09:17:39 AM »

It is scoped.

SJan45 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 01, 2011, 09:36:36 AM »

I have a 1.5--4.5x scope mounted.
I have not done any modifications to the rifle yet, I may tackle a trigger job because it is quite heavy.

ratdog · « **Reply #23 on:** October 01, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »

gee 45 my targets look just like yours but im shooting a 357 mag tried all the tricks it got worse even put a new scope on it same problems would not shoot factory 357 cal ammo good at all decided i don't need this gun a lot of trouble sent it back to the factory yesterday and told them i don't want that original barrel back and fit it with a 44mag see what happens my first bad handi both my 45-70's shoot great + all my others. you might try a bigger dia bullet good luck. mine was driving me nuts not worth the problem.