Author Topic: A few newbie questions, and one for Lee Dies (Read 1023 times)

Zach · « **on:** September 11, 2011, 12:21:02 PM »

Well im just getting into reloading and came into a bump in the road. I have read on many sources that with single shot rifles or bolt action rifles, most do not crimp their cases because crimping to a degree robs some accuracy and also is not needed if the bullet isnt getting banged around in the action.

Since i am shooting a single shot break barrel for my 243, will i need to crimp? or should i?

and what die set should i get? And where in the die process is the case flaired? i have read alot but still a big confused, because some have a seperate die, and other are collective.

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=731848&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&itemGUID=5a4bfc44ac1008516c3407080face0d7&WTz_l=SBC%3BMMcat104792580%3Bcat104761080%3Bcat104516280&destination=/checkout/basket.jsp

http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=731711&categoryId=0&parentCategoryId=0&subCategoryId=0&indexId=0&itemGUID=548c9b6fac10705978b3e62ae6208f4f&destination=/checkout/basket.jsp

BCB · « **Reply #1 on:** September 11, 2011, 01:43:48 PM »

I really can’t imagine needing the deluxe set, but for 5 extra bucks, it might be worth while…

The less expensive set will do the same thing basically. But no collet neck sizing die. Never had one of them never needed one…

You can neck size using a regular sizing die...

You don’t flare the bottle neck case unless you are using cast boolits…

Then there is another type of die you do that with…

But for regular jacketed bullets, either set will work…

You can crimp with either set, if you feel it is necessary—probably not with a single shot rifle/handgun…

I would go the less expensive…

Good-luck…BCB

hillbill · « **Reply #2 on:** September 11, 2011, 01:52:06 PM »

ive never flared or crimped a bottleneck rifle cartridge. now ive heard of crimping rounds used in lever action rifles.but i havent yet.but i dont shoot a lot of heavy recoiling rounds.your a revolver reloader aintchu?all my rifle rounds work best with neck tension only.

Savage · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2011, 01:58:45 PM »

No experience with break open rifles, but from what I have read here, most choose not to crimp. Normally neck tension will hold the bullet sufficiently in ammo that will not be used in a tubular magazine or heavy recoiling rifle. To answer your question, the case mouth is expanded as the depriming punch is withdrawn from the case by the expanding ball. If the expanding ball is the correct size for the caliber, this allows easy seating of the bullet, but enough neck tension to keep the bullet from moving in the case neck under normal conditions. The two die set is all you need. It will allow you to choose whether to crimp or not. You might want to try it with and without crimping to see how it effects accuracy and velocity.
Savage

Zach · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2011, 02:05:42 PM »

I have only reloaded 45acp with my uncle and always flaired because be also casted bullets. Well he did, I just made the ignots. And since it is a single shot/break barrel, isnt neck sizing the only thing 'required' because the case will fire form to the chamber? I will only use brass fired from the same gun, as I only have one 243.

So basically, there is a $2 difference and am wondering if it is worth the $2 for the neck, because I will not need the crimper. but like i said, only have reloaded for my handguns and thats with my uncle as the leader.

BCB · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2011, 02:11:38 PM »

Either set of dies will allow you to crimp...

Good-luck...BCB

bilmac · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2011, 03:00:41 PM »

When you size a bottleneck case the expander ball enters the case on the primer punch rod before the case is sized. Then the expander ball expands the neck as it is pulled out of the case. It isn't possible to do that with a straight wall case, there is no place for an expander to "hide" while the case is being sized, so you have to have a seperate die and operation to expand a straight case.

Since the case is expanded in a separate operation, it is easy to put a little taper on the expander ball so that you can bell the mouth if you want. Can't do that to the expander ball for a bottleneck case since that ball comes out backwards. Since jacketed bullets are normally shot in bottleneck cases that works out alright, you don't need to bell to seat a jacketed bullet. Straight wall cases are often used with lead bullets and it helps to bell the mouth a little so the bullet isn't shaved when it is seated.

hillbill · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2011, 03:05:41 PM »

ive never crimped for my 243 bolt.i do full length resize tho just in case i get a new rifle in the same caliber.you can get better accuracy with neck sizeing but id be surprised if it amounted to more than a 1/2 inch.

Zach · « **Reply #8 on:** September 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM »

Right, Bilmac which is why i was so fuzzy on these bottlenecks. I know that I will not ever be getting another 243, if I do ill just spend 50 bucks for a few hundred brass and have them seperate.

Has anyone had any RECENT experiance with Factory Sales? I was ordering from Cabelas, but Factory Sales has everything cheaper and can get away with almost $15 cheaper, but i hear that they have horrible shipping times. Or does Cabelas have 4-6 weeks wait times also?

spinafish · « **Reply #9 on:** September 12, 2011, 10:40:52 AM »

never waited near that long for Cabelas..

LanceR · « **Reply #10 on:** September 12, 2011, 12:14:02 PM »

As stated the general rule is that there is no need to crimp .243 bullets. The only exception I'm aware of is that Barnes recommends a slight crimp for some of it's TTSX, TSX and MRX bullets to give more consistent neck tension. If you are loading them a quick call to Barnes will let you know if it is something you may want to consider for your loads.

Good luck and congratulations on getting into reloading.

Lance

murphdog · « **Reply #11 on:** September 12, 2011, 12:28:32 PM »

Zach,
I shoot 223's from a break-action H&R, and I found that I had to full-length size my brass each time. Neck-sizing did not work, as fired cases would not fully seat in the chamber. Explanation I was given is that neck-sizing works with bolt guns because the action is so stable and has no give. But a break-action gun may have some "flex" allowing the action to stretch a little bit at the moment the shot goes off. This results in stretching of the case, moving the shoulder forward, and requiring a full-length sizer to set the shoulder back a little bit each time. I understand this isn't always a problem, but thats how it turned out with my break-action gun. I use a 2-die set and never crimp the bullets.
Duane

Zach · « **Reply #12 on:** September 12, 2011, 04:11:15 PM »

I will try neck sizing first, just to see. All will tell when i get the dies and see what I try first.

tacklebury · « **Reply #13 on:** September 13, 2011, 01:22:14 PM »

I buy the deluxe Lee sets for all calibers I reload that they make one for. I think my .45-70 and .40-65 Win. are the only 2 I haven't got deluxe for. I haven't messed around with the neck sizing much yet on my bottle necks, but I have the option. As for crimps I have the factory crimp for each caliber. I have tested loads with and without crimps and find that typically they tighten up with the use of a light crimp. You have to be careful on leads not to squeeze down the dia., but have had zero issues on jacketed bullets. I also find that in my revolvers, the crimps are CRITICAL to keeping consistency and not having bullet jump and this is more important the more powerful the load. With my .45 Colt target loads, I barely crimp the leads at all, but did notice that when I don't, my groups open from 1.5 to 2" up to 4" or more. Good luck in your adventure though.

wncchester · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2011, 04:18:26 PM »

There is no automatic need to crimp for a single shot. BUT, I like maxiumum flexiblity in my reloading equipment so I usually buy Lee's Delux sets to obtain the very neat collet neck sizer and buy the FCD seperately.

Zach · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2011, 04:55:13 PM »

Well i went the other route and bought the standard Lee 3 die set and the 2 die collet set. Only went this route becuase i got a killer deal that included brass, dies, bullets, and a handloading kit for cheap. It was just in time also as i was on Cabelas with the deluxe and crimp in my cart about to order it.

Thanks everyone for the info

Zach · « **Reply #16 on:** September 19, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »

So now that i have my dies in hand, i have a few questions becuase i havnt been able to find much help online searching.

I have a 2 die collet set. One looks like the collet in the Deluxe kit, and the other does not. Im just wondering how these two dies work and how to set them up, its for a 243 Win. I will be making a small closet bench in the next few weeks, but i want to get a good understanding in the meantime.

mdi · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:57:30 AM »

Quote from: Zach on September 19, 2011, 04:36:23 PM

So now that i have my dies in hand, i have a few questions becuase i havnt been able to find much help online searching.

I have a 2 die collet set. One looks like the collet in the Deluxe kit, and the other does not. Im just wondering how these two dies work and how to set them up, its for a 243 Win. I will be making a small closet bench in the next few weeks, but i want to get a good understanding in the meantime.

Did the dies come with instructions? Also the Lee site has help videos that show how to adjust dies in a single stage press.http://leeprecision.com/xcart/home.php left side near bottom...

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:00:49 PM »

Quote from: wncchester on September 17, 2011, 04:18:26 PM

There is no automatic need to crimp for a single shot. BUT, I like maxiumum flexiblity in my reloading equipment so I usually buy Lee's Delux sets to obtain the very neat collet neck sizer and buy the FCD seperately.

Actually with some powder combinations there is a need. Especially, slower burn powders tend to do better with a solid crimp and some but not all guns I own do a lot better in the accuracy with the same load crimped as uncrimped. So maybe not need, but I desire to crimp mine. Plus if you're a hunter, it tends to help in retarding moisture wicking or bullets getting pushed into different depths. If you're range shooting only, not as significant in most circumstances.

wncchester · « **Reply #19 on:** September 25, 2011, 02:27:10 PM »

" ive heard of crimping ..but i havent yet. ... all my rifle rounds work best with neck tension only."

Amusing. And typical of much 'web wisdom". Never done it, but still certain his "rifle rounds work best with neck tension only." ?? May crimping be worth a try before making such a statement?

-----------------------------------------

Me: "There is no automatic need to crimp for a single shot. ... (I) buy the FCD seperately.
. You: "Actually with some powder combinations there is a need."

Okay Tack, and my error is where?

tacklebury · « **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2011, 07:19:59 PM »

There are many recipe's I use that state specifically a strong crimp is needed. This is most common in very slow burning powders or BP loads, but sometimes it is a requirement to get proper burn. Sorry, wasn't jumping on you, just stating that there are times it's needed.

murphdog · « **Reply #21 on:** September 26, 2011, 04:54:40 PM »

"2 die collet set. One looks like the collet in the Deluxe kit, and the other does not."

Zach, could the second die in the 2-die collet set be a seating die? I think thats how they sell them.
Duane

petemi · « **Reply #22 on:** September 28, 2011, 02:43:14 AM »

It's a seating die.

Pete

Troyboy · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2011, 01:23:35 PM »

I agree that the dizzying array of dies is a bit confusing. I believe a good read is in order. Try Lee's Modern Reloading or Lymans book. You will need one anyway and it will clear the mud in the water. The basics are explained well and load data will be at your fingertips.

rockshooter · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2011, 07:32:46 PM »

All of my dies are 4-die sets. In rifle, I decap/resize, flare with a Lyman "M" die, seat the bullet, crimp. I shoot multiple rifles in the same caliber, so always full-length resize. I've found that some powders (like ww748) burn more completely with crimping. I like Lee FCDs- some people don't- thats' ok. I have a couple of undersize dies. Because of batches of thinner brass, I asked Lee to ship me "U" dies in .38/357, 9mm, 40 S&W. Just call customer service for this. I think it's a false economy to go the cheapest way with tools. Better to have a die and not use it much than not have something that would make life easier.
Loren