The best way to work up a load?

[RandyWakeman]

Everybody seems to have a favorite process for bullet / powder selection. What's yours?

[grouse]

Everybody seems to have a favorite process for bullet / powder selection. What's yours?

Right now pretty simple. two 777 pellets. 300grn .44cal DC.

[RandyWakeman]

Grouse,

That isn't "exactly" what working up a load is, at least to me. If that is what you like, great, but there really isn't much working up to the "take two pellets and call me in the morning" approach.

[Super 91]

I typically take 2 to 4 types of bullets I prefer and have enough on hand to test the gun.  I then have 3 to 4 different kinds of powder in different granulations to try behind them.  I start with what I deem a mild load, around 70 grains.  

I shoot thee shot strings without any scope adjustment, just to see different points of impact.  Once I get a bullet/powder combo that is shooting well, I let the barrel cool if it has a few rounds through it, and adjust my scope to that load.  I shoot it for at least 5 three shot strings, and average my results.  If the load holds, I write it down for future reference.  

I try to test all the bullets, as you may think you have "the one" to find out that the next one does better than you could have imagined.  I will be shooting some of my new designs soon, and the only thing I will be testing it those bullets with various powders.  I have one for .504 calibers, a 495 grain beauty, and a 467 grain version for my .451 guns.  I have yet to shoot any as I am waiting for my custom dies.  

I only make my step ups in powder no more than 5 grains at a time while working on accuracy.  I also try to shoot at least two guns so the one will have time to cool between strings.  

I like to shoot on cool but not freezing days, little wind as possible, and on our public range. I just got an Outers shooting rest so I can't wait to get all my stuff together once I get my dies in and hit the range.  But I guess that's pretty much how I do it.

[big6x6]

"That isn't "exactly" what working up a load is, at least to me. If that is what you like, great, but there really isn't much working up to the "take two pellets and call me in the morning" approach."

Well, that's usually what I do, TOO!  In MY mind, that's a good place to START.  USUALLY that will give me the best group the bullet will shoot, at least with 777.  IF I get a good group with two 777 pellets, I know I may have something and can move to loose 777 OR three pellets.  I've only had a few bullets shoot anything even RESEMBLING a group with three pellets OR over 110gr 777.

[Underclocked]

Almost every "shooter" I've encountered would do well with an appropriate bullet at 80-90 grains of Pyrodex P.  Maybe not the best, but at least decent performance.  So my starting point for any rifle was generally about 80 grains of P.

Now I have a bunch of Triple7, so I've dropped that "try this out" load down to 75 grains when using T7 which still puts me in the same ballpark energy-wise.  For a given gun and the 75 grain "tryout" charges, I pick what I think to be a few bullet types that will perform.  Usually we are talking 4 or 5 bullets of different weight and build.   Any load incorporating the use of plastic will probably be on the bottom of my list as I like to shoot cast conicals where possible with second choice being commercial conicals.  

From that little assemblage of load and bullets, I can usually determine fairly quickly if the rifle is going to be a performer with ANY load I would personally care to shoot.  Once the best of that initial lot is determined, I'll start tweaking the powder charge - usually up and to no more than 100 grains of loose - until I find what I think to be the best performance.  

There are so many combinations of bullets, powders, and primers/caps that one could easily spend a small fortune in some confused or random approach toward load development.  For me, it is better to start with something close to what I like to shoot and then make minor adjustments toward optimal performance (still within the envelope of "like to shoot") IF the rifle shows promise.    

And if the rifle does not show promise, it will be on its way to the next person's trials unless there is something particularly appealing in the design or some reason to believe the factory could correct any problems identified (as was the case with my first 209x45 - a rifle that has been a real challenge accuracy-wise but one that has a lot of appeal otherwise).  

I suppose this method places a lot more demand on a rifle's qualities than it does load refinement, but it's a broadax approach toward finding rifles/loads that I like to shoot.  I've no interest in attempting to turn muzzleloaders into .243s or 30-06s.  Except maybe for that G2 that should be arriving soon (leave it alone Randy!   :-)  ).

[sheephunterab]

The 240-grain XTP is my "benchmark" bullet. I've never had a gun it didn't like. I begin by shooting 100 grains of loose Pyro and a 240-XTP and getting the gun shoooting where I want it. Once I know the gun will shoot. I'll bump up to 150 grains of powder and start playing with bullets, beginning with the XTP of course. After that, I'll try some pellets, T7 etc, looking for the combination the rifle likes best. It's not something you do in an afternoon.

[RandyWakeman]

Ironically, it seems that White Rifles need the least "load working up" of any rifles. Does anybody know of a White that won't shoot with 90 grains of Pyrodex P and a 460 grain No Excuses conical?

[sheephunterab]

The same could be said for every T/C I've ever shot Randy. I've never seen one that won't shoot 100 grains of loose Pyrodex and a 240-grain XTP.

[RandyWakeman]

Then you are one very lucky fellow, indeed. Thompson has had some significant barrel quality control problems over the years-- from eccentric QLA's to warranty replacement of massive numbers of early 1:20 twist .45 caliber Encore / Omega barrels, with uneven centerfire barrel quality as well. Both Bullberry Barrel Works and Virgin Valley Arms have found many willing customers, due to all this.

They seem to have improved, though.

[grouse]

Grouse,

That isn't "exactly" what working up a load is, at least to me. If that is what you like, great, but there really isn't much working up to the "take two pellets and call me in the morning" approach.

Sorry Randy, nobody else had much to say. So i did.
If my posts dont full fill your needs, Delete them. No
hard feelings.

[RandyWakeman]

It has little to do with "needs."

Hodgdon didn't release Pyrodex pellets in 50 gr. equiv. form by accident, nor Triple 7 pellets initially in 50 gr. pellets, either. According to various surveys, most folks are shooting / hunting with 90 - 100 grain loads, are shooting bullets 300 grains or less, etc.

Most saboted projectiles (and Powerbelts) I've tried operate their best in a fairly narrow range-- 90 - 100 grains or so. Personally, I've had far more dramatic results changing a bullet (or a sabot only) than moving powder charges around. For most guns, two Pyrodex pellets has still been the most consistent load according to the chronographs-- more consistent than Triple 7 pellets, and more consistent than loose powder that is volumetrically measured.

[sheephunterab]

For most guns, two Pyrodex pellets has still been the most consistent load according to the chronographs--

Take two pellets and call me in the morning! As much as most of us old shooters hate it, it does seem to work in most rifles. There is something therapeutic about measuring powder, however.

[Roger_Dailey]

I don't know if this link will take, but its a method that has gotten good reviews: http://www.sportschutters.com/Laddertest.pdf

WARNING: the link is a very long winded version, but is has a lot of detail and support documentation

[Super 91]

Ironically, it seems that White Rifles need the least "load working up" of any rifles. Does anybody know of a White that won't shoot with 90 grains of Pyrodex P and a 460 grain No Excuses conical?

In a word, no.

[tmarch]

Roger, if I had to build the fixture to hold my rifle I'd never get to shoot it.  I'm sure if I could understand German it'd be a nice winter evening novel. :eek:

[RandyWakeman]

Ironically, it seems that White Rifles need the least "load working up" of any rifles. Does anybody know of a White that won't shoot with 90 grains of Pyrodex P and a 460 grain No Excuses conical?

In a word, no.

That is one of the great appeals of White Rifles, as far as I'm concerned. Who knows, maybe one day White Rifles, LLC, will be forced to mention it themselves?

[RandyWakeman]

From the above cited article:

Roger's answer was: If you can't tune the Load, tune the Barrel. He took the Rifle together with a few
Tools to the Range: A Hacksaw, a Machinist's Square and a File and a large Amount Ammunition.
Opposed to breach seating each bullet, Roger shoots fixed Ammunition. He shot a Group and then
cut a half Inch off the Barrel and using the file and the square recrown it by hand. Then shoot
another Group until the Rifle shot the Way he thought it ought to. He says he endured a lot of rude
comments from the Peanut gallery, but took satisfaction in consistently beating most of them in
matches.

This is actually Underclocked's proven approach, finally perfected in the Joltmaster SmartMedia Stage III-- which includes witness marks on its pre-scored barrel (for worry free hack-saw use). This has been shown to be far easier than the cut the QLA method, and was embodied as prior Art even before the creative Underclocked invented the "Crud Ring," and the Underclocked permanent full silver non-plastic jacket that has won him recent acclaim.

[xs pro-comp]

I had a gentleman tell me this weekend that the way he works up a load is as follows: start with a selected base powder charge such as 65gr. of Goex w/a patched RB. Shoot three shot goups with each 5gr. increase in powder charge. Watch the group tighten and continue w/the 5gr. increase until the group size spreads. Drop back down 5gr. and them increase by 1gr until he finds the tightest group that gun will shoot with his chosen powder/patch RB combo. He stated that he will continue to work at this until he gets the gun to shoot almost into the same hole at 50yds. Next he will start over at 75yds. and then at 100yds. His comment was it is basically the same procedure used as with a centerfire rifle.