Author Topic: making a new carriage look old  (Read 1717 times)

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Offline Zulu

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making a new carriage look old
« on: September 13, 2011, 08:03:08 AM »
From time to time we have discussed aging wood.  If I remember correctly there were ideas like vinegar and steel wool, and some other stuff.
If you have aged a carriage before could I talk you into posting your recipe and pictures of the outcome?
I am trying to make new red oak look old.  There are no splits or warps in it so it looks pretty good now. :-\
Thanks,
Zulu
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 08:31:43 AM »
No idea about the wood, but Birchwood Casey Plum Brown is excellent for making steel parts look old and weathered, so you could use that on the metal parts of the carriage.
If you prefer black instead of brown, you can boil the parts in distilled water for about 30 minutes and they will turn black. This is actually a sort of cut-down version of rust bluing, without the card/repeat steps.
Sorry I couldn't help with the wood...
He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline GGaskill

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 02:05:24 PM »
I guess it depends on what features make you think it looks old.  Perhaps you could bleach it to simulate UV fading.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Zulu

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 02:14:12 PM »
I think my biggest problem is beating up the wood to make it look battle scared,  When I hit it with a hammer it looks like I hit it with a hammer.  If I beat it with chains it looks like I beat it with chains.  Natural scarring is hard to come by.  I don't really want to burn it with a torch.
  I want a dark brown stained carriage that looks old.   I don't want black.  Which is what vinegar and steel wool gives me on red oak.
I'm still thinking about it. :-\
Zulu
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 03:07:25 PM »
While natural abuse will include bruising type damage, I would expect the normal exposure to rain to somewhat raise that kind of damage.  Gouging damage would remain as gouges as there are no crushed wood fibers there to re-expand. 

I would irregularly round off square edges for starters and make some gouges in places likely to see that kind of damage.

I think my biggest problem is beating up the wood to make it look battle scarred.

You mean small arms fire, sabre/cutlass damage?  An artillery hit to the wood unless glancing would leave mostly kindling, I would think.
GG
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Offline flagman1776

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 04:16:45 PM »
 :)

Offline GGaskill

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 04:27:01 PM »
I would expect something in regular service (especially Navy service) to get regular if not excessive coats of paint, so that faded paint wouldn't occur until the piece had been retired from regular service. 

What condition is the piece supposed to represent?  Abandoned, retired, old but still in use, etc.

Also, friction wear will leave smooth spots, not rough ones, so you need to decide what caused each specific element of character.   ;)
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline jamesbeat

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 05:49:50 PM »
I 'antiqued' a repro remington bp revolver, and used the chain/hammer etc method.
I found that the dents didn't look realistic until I sanded them.
Removing the raised rim of the dents made them look considerably more realistic.
Also, unless your cannon is full size, make sure you hit it with something that gives a good 'scale dent'.
A regular hammer might leave unrealistically huge dents, as though it had been hit by a bombard.
Lots of tiny dents would look more realistic.
He reached out and stroked shiny barrel. "Manuel, once there was a man who held a political make-work job like so many here in this Directorate, shining brass cannon around a courthouse."

   "Why would courthouse have cannon?"

   "Never mind. He did this for years. It fed him and let him save a bit, but he was not getting ahead in the world. So one day he quit his job, drew out his savings, bought a brass cannon--and went into business for himself."

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Robert A. Heinlein

Offline IvarForkbeard

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 08:58:02 PM »
I have had some success with "damaging" the wood with ball end of a ball peen hammer, light chain or like products, THEN raising the dents back using the tried and true damp rag and iron trick to partially pop the damaged fibers back to place.
Conversly, you could start with distressed wood, aged, weathered, lightly sand it then cut your pieces.
Former US Navy, living in West Michigan

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 04:41:16 AM »
How about using it a lot.  If not that then maybe leaving it in the back of a pick up truck for a while might put some wear on it.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 05:57:05 AM »
Just leave it outdoors until you get the required results. You have about the same damp, hot crappy weather there as we do here, so it wont take long.
 
Max

Offline KABAR2

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 07:32:50 AM »
Just leave it outdoors until you get the required results. You have about the same damp, hot crappy weather there as we do here, so it wont take long.
 

Max,
They should send these to me so they could be properly cared for.... I would be happy to give them a good home...
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline KABAR2

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 07:35:44 AM »
From time to time we have discussed aging wood.  If I remember correctly there were ideas like vinegar and steel wool, and some other stuff.
If you have aged a carriage before could I talk you into posting your recipe and pictures of the outcome?
I am trying to make new red oak look old.  There are no splits or warps in it so it looks pretty good now. :-\
Thanks,
Zulu
My experiance with red oak is leave it out doors in the rain and in a few months the rot will have begun..... how weathered do you need it?
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 09:07:38 AM »
I have started on the carriage today.  I want it to look old but I'm having a hard time trying "not" to make everything perfect. :-\
I don't want it to look rotten.  I want it to look good but still look old.  ???
It is going to be another of my static displays.  I think I'll just get the carriage made and figure out what I'll do to it when it's finished.  I can't even imagine not sanding one of my pieces but I want the rough sawn look.
I did a test with a piece of scrap by taking a belt sander with 50 grit paper and touching it down the side of the wood.  It made vertical scratches.  Then I rubbed brown shoe polish all over it filling the scratches.  It looks okay but I wish the scratches were deeper.  I tried a 7" disc sander with 36 grit paper.  It looks better but the scratches are circular.  I don't think they had circular saws in the 1700's. :P
No matter what, when it's finished, it has to look like I made it.
Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'll keep thinking about it.
Zulu
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Offline flagman1776

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 09:50:15 AM »
 ;)

Offline lendi

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 10:14:47 AM »
a method that i have used to age wood is to distress with a rasp, chain, ect and than use an oxy acetylene torch to change the color.  large tip with mostly acetylene and only enough o2 to keep the flame from being sooty.  you are not burning the wood only changing the color.  i have done this with pine beams to make them look old.  stains cna adjust the color. 
lendi

Offline smokemjoe

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 10:21:19 AM »
You can make a brine from wood ashs, put on the wood to make it look old. For iron put in bleach or outside with a gas mask on , boil the iron. Works fast, Joe
   Use a wire brush on a electric drill, go over the wood with it, Put in the trunk of your car or truck with 2 or 3 loose bowling balls, and if you live in a town like mine that is on the river bluffs your get a real bang out of it and a banged up job.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 10:45:43 AM »
I have started on the carriage today.  I want it to look old but I'm having a hard time trying "not" to make everything perfect. :-\
I don't want it to look rotten.  I want it to look good but still look old.  ???
It is going to be another of my static displays.  I think I'll just get the carriage made and figure out what I'll do to it when it's finished.  I can't even imagine not sanding one of my pieces but I want the rough sawn look.
I did a test with a piece of scrap by taking a belt sander with 50 grit paper and touching it down the side of the wood.  It made vertical scratches.  Then I rubbed brown shoe polish all over it filling the scratches.  It looks okay but I wish the scratches were deeper.  I tried a 7" disc sander with 36 grit paper.  It looks better but the scratches are circular.  I don't think they had circular saws in the 1700's. :P

No matter what, when it's finished, it has to look like I made it.
Thanks for all the suggestions.  I'll keep thinking about it.
 
Zulu

I believe craftsmen back then would have removed saw marks.  They would have wanted a nice looking piece.  I think the purchaser would have wanted the pieces to look good to.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline KABAR2

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 10:48:23 AM »
Yep it's amazing what they can do with a plane and scrapers....
Yeah I know Artilleryman and I are a big help!...... ::)
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Double D

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2011, 10:55:36 AM »
Not sure what effect you are really looking for, but an old cannon would have been painted.  The paint would have weathered, oxidized and cracked. It would also be scratched and peeling.   In places such as square edges it would rubbed bare. The wood mighe even be check and cracked.

The trick is the wood you use.  Don't use new read oak to start, use old barn wood.

Offline Zulu

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2011, 12:49:06 PM »
DD,
I know the carriage would probably have been painted.  I'm not going to paint red oak.  :P
I was in the wood yard the other day and they had aged barn wood for sale.  It was $14 a board foot.  I started laughing out loud.  It was the highest priced lumber I saw.  Red oak was much cheaper than clear pine in 2" thickness.  $2 per board foot cheaper if you can believe it.
I'll mess around with this and see if I can come up with something I like.
No matter what, it's still fun to goof off in the shop all day. ;D
Zulu
 
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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2011, 06:15:24 PM »
I disagree that a steel-vinegar solution makes red oak black:
 

 
I've shown this before, but this is one example of what you can expect from a ferrous sulfate solution on red oak.  (Note - different woods respond differently.  The quoin was made out of a different wood, and didn't react much to the treatment.  A paint stirrer and a few other pieces of scrap wood I tried (of unknown species) all had different reactions.  This acid reacts with tannins, and only woods with high tannin content will have significant reactions.)

This color was created by dissolving some 0000 steel wool in a cup of vinegar, then rubbing it on with a rag.  Initially, it turned grayish purple, but after neutralizing the acid with a baking soda-water solution, I applied some linseed oil, which left it a nice distressed color.  Hand forging the trunnion hardware added an aged look, as does pulling it around on gravel, firing it, and leaving it out in the rain during once in a while.

I do agree that an authentic aging would require painting, then wearing off the paint and ditressing the paint finish, but I also like to see the grain of a nice wood.  I disagree, though, that you should start with old wood.  You should build the carriage as if it was being built for the first time, ideally using old methods (like the scrapers and other hand tools).  It should be built to the standard of the originals, then worn to the level of aging desired.  Many of the originals were made from new wood, repurposed wood, or a mixture of the two.  I think having a mix would be interesting, especially if you chose to go for the peeling/worn paint finish.  If not doing the paint finish, I'd stick to new, then you can age to whatever degree you want.
 
Whatever you want to try, attempt it (in the same sequence) on a scrap piece from the same board you want to use.

Offline Shortwave5

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2011, 09:01:41 PM »
New here but I will weigh in. Use it. Is it a large carrage or one of the small scale items? If it is small it would not be too hard to take to the range a few days and shoot it a bunch. Just transporting it, powder residue, dirt from your hands, spilling liquid from swabbing the bore and cleaning it will make it look used. If it's big that all may not be so easy. It is a slow way to go I guess but fun. ~Zane
 

Offline IvarForkbeard

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2011, 12:35:22 PM »
Started the display unit for the carronade today, I selected a 24 inches of 8 inch wide 8/4 white oak that came from a barn that was torn down thirty years ago, after having stood for nearly a hundred. Even after planing, joining and sanding, I won't have to do anything to make this look old....
Former US Navy, living in West Michigan

Offline oltom

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 02:33:08 AM »
leave it at your local playground for thirty days........... :o
kids can do things WE grownups would never think of!!!!!!!!!!! :-[
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Offline IvarForkbeard

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2011, 01:13:00 PM »

Day 2 of the display base build, that bottom piece is the 8/4 oak, mortised so I could use a single piece. The part under the carronade itself that slides, is 3/4 walnut. First coat of tong oil completed on both

Former US Navy, living in West Michigan

Offline Rickk

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 04:31:33 AM »
The areas adjacent to iron hardware turn black on an old carriage due to the rust stains working their way into the wood. At the same time, the iron develops pit marks as it all deteriorates due to the rusting.

I rebuilt my mortar base a couple years after I first built it. The oak was apparently not all that seasoned when I built it, so there was some separation as the wood continued to dry. I took it apart, straightened things out as much as I could, and put it all back together (with wood putty to hide things that could not be fixed a better way). Anyway, after only two years to steel through-bolts had developed a serious case of rust inside the wood.  I had to beat the bolts out to disassemble. The wood has serious rust stains inside the holes. I can't imagine what it would have looked liked in 100 years.

FYI, I cleaned up the bolts and gave both them and also the inside of the holes in the wood  several coats of linseed oil before reassembly.

Offline projector

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2011, 11:40:17 AM »
I haven't tried this and don't know what the results would be but take a scrap piece and drag it behind your vehicle down a gravel road.  Oak is hard enougn to hold up and you would get a more random effect.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2011, 12:52:51 PM »
I haven't tried this and don't know what the results would be but take a scrap piece and drag it behind your vehicle down a gravel road.  Oak is hard enougn to hold up and you would get a more random effect.
He could drop it off a cliff too..... but either of these tend to give the look of abuse rather than use.....  How about staining it and sanding down areas of the stained wood to give the impression of wear? and also using a lighter stain is some areas.... that might do the trick...
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Zulu

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Re: making a new carriage look old
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2011, 12:59:43 PM »
I haven't tried this and don't know what the results would be but take a scrap piece and drag it behind your vehicle down a gravel road.  Oak is hard enougn to hold up and you would get a more random effect.
He could drop it off a cliff too..... but either of these tend to give the look of abuse rather than use.....  How about staining it and sanding down areas of the stained wood to give the impression of wear? and also using a lighter stain is some areas.... that might do the trick...

Kabar,
 I like that idea.  I was thinking along those same lines.  Stain it, sand a little, stain it again.  Repeat if needed.
Zulu
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