Author Topic: Winchester question.. (Read 3297 times)

ironglow · « **on:** September 17, 2011, 03:33:15 PM »

I am well aware that the better Winchesters from years back were the "pre-'64" mopdels..before the 'bean counters' jumped in and did their damage.
However, I also know that some time after 1964, the grand old firm woke up and started making good stuff again...
So when were the good quality arms started again.. I mean "post what year"..to be assured of the 'good stuff', especially in the model 94s..

Rangr44 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2011, 05:10:57 PM »

As far as the Model 94 lever action goes, 1964 marked the 1st major change, easily recognized by the use of roll pins ILO solid in the links and a stamped sheet metal cartridge carrier/lifter ILO the pre-64's machined solid one.
In 1971, Winchester replaced the roll pins, and also the stamped lifter with a solid/cast lifter (look for the mold mark/line).
About 10 years later, IIRC, a crossbolt safety appeared in the rear part of the receiver walls; followed by a rebounding hammer; then a big change from top-ejection to side/angle ejection in 1983, with factory prep for top scope mounting.
The last change was to drop the crossbolt safety in favor of a tang safety.

You can be the judge, as to which is "best", since YMMV.

The same economic changes took place in 1964 with regards to the Model 70 boltgun - with not much significant change until the 1991 "Classic" return to the long extractor CRF system of the pre-64's, from the post-64 push-feed system.

AFAIK, 1964 also saw the discontinuance of Winchester's classic rimfire rifles and other shotguns, replaced with guns that had alloy receivers and non-walnut stocks with pressed-in checkering.

.

saddlebum · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2011, 05:21:46 PM »

In 1980 when Winchester Repeating Arms became U.S. Repeating Arms the quality of the guns started to improve over those dark years between '64 and '80. Quality progressively improved in materials and workmanship and improvements in design features, like stocks and optional models. These were all the post '64 push feed type actions that are comparable to Remington and others.

In 1992 they reintroduced the controled round feed action, labeled the, "Classic", and continued it and the push feed until they closed their doors in 2006. The new CRF action had some improvements over the pre '64 action and has a cone breech.

I think the period between '64 and the early '70s may have been a little rough for the M-'94s. From the '70s till closing in '06 they were real good, with the '70s thru the '80s the best
The M-94s became "angle eject" models in the early '80s and in the mid '90s got the cross-bolt safety. The last 94s from New Haven in 2006 had tang safeties.

All other lever action models, as far as I know were made in Japan and in the last years before '06 they had tang safeties. Don't know when they started the tang safety.

IMO, The guns from the early '80s to '06 are great with some short periods of quality control issues. The '90s were the best years I think with many models to choose from, nicer materials and best quality.

In 2008 Fabrique Nationale announced that it would produce Model 70 rifles with the new "MOA" trigger, (which was not needed), at its plant in Columbia, SC. In the summer of 2010 Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal (FN) resumed production of the Winchester model 1894 and the evolution of the Winchester 1300, now called the Winchester SXP.

But of coarse if you want a 'real' M-94 without angle eject, you gotta go pre-'80.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »

I have some from all periods, both model 70s and 94s and with the exception of the cheaper wood and metal finish along with the stamped or rolled checkering the basic guns were all good through all years regardless of what you hear or read.
Some of my best shooters are push feed model 70s and my best 94 is a 307 big bore with the angle eject and that stupid cross bolt safety. That one ain't for sale!
As far as hunting guns go, they will all get the job done as long as you find the ammo that each likes.
The same can be said about any manufacture or caliber of gun on the market today and in the past.
I have never had any of them fail me when I called on them.
Just because it's a pre 64 doesn't mean it will be a shooter and being of the post 64 doesn't mean it isn't either!!!
So much for all the experts in the magazines with their findings going in all directions.
We have Handi rifles that shoot and some that don't.
Most just take a little tinkering, that's all.
Forget all the hype and get one of what ever vintage and give it a fair chance.
If it doesn't work out you can almost always get your money back out of them unless you just paid to much to begin with.
Get another and try it.
That is the only way you are going to know.

LONGTOM

1sourdough · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2011, 06:14:20 PM »

I still have my mid 70's vintage model 70 in 308. It mostly sits in the safe as I use others for the most part. I think I could of used that one rifle for all the rifle hunting I've done since. I'd also take it over much of the mass produced stuff offered today.

ironglow · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2011, 05:55:06 AM »

So, do you guys figure that most of the "pre-64" stuff was just spin ? Guys unwilling to accept change..

Ranch13 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:48:22 AM »

Yup there's always alot of grousing about change in the guns. Sometimes it has merit, sometimes it doesn't.
I too have had winchesters from most all era's (except the cross bolt safety, I refuse to buy a Marlinization of a winchester) and they have all been fine rifles.
It's sort of funny that at the time of the big change in the 70's to push feed , the world was on fire for the Remington 700 and it's push feed, the instant Winchester changed the model 70 to push feed it was a bad bad bad thing..

Bottom line if you find a Winchester that you like the looks and feel of and the price is right, buy it.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:56:33 AM »

pre-64 and the new CRF is what you want if you hunt dangerous game. otherwise, from my reading, the rest are pretty good rifles.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2011, 07:37:51 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on September 29, 2011, 05:55:06 AM

So, do you guys figure that most of the "pre-64" stuff was just spin ? Guys unwilling to accept change..

Here is my experince , I have hunted with several 94's all post 64 except for a mod 64 that had a shot out bbl . I have shot AE 94'3 one in 7X30 waters is by far the one rifle I have killed the most deer and turkeys with. I have hunted or shot the Canidian model (1967) both long and short bbl. Shot both NRA guns , A mod 64 made in the 1950's , I have shot several pre 64 guns. For smooth actions nothing beats a pre 64. A post 64 in stright walled revolver cart. can be a real pain to get to feed at times ( go with a mod 92 if this is what you want to shoot). I have shot post 64 guns with both stamped and cast lifters . I like the look of the cast but the stamped worked but not as smooth in the guns I fired. Some of the post guns ( owned one) had metal in the reciver that would not blue well , they are poor investments. If you get one bead blast it and phospate coat it . Makes a good brush gun with no reflection . If you are looking for a servicable gun any will do . If you want the best action a pre 64 is the best place to start looking. Any will take game. The 7X30 waters with a 24 inch bbl. is in my opinion one of the best deer guns . Biggest deer I have taken with mine was a 12 pointer . Nothing runs more than a few yards after being shot. And yes here we shoot running deer. The 7X30 is a soft kicker and an honest 200 yard gun.

saddlebum · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2011, 11:24:51 AM »

Quote from: ironglow on September 29, 2011, 05:55:06 AM

So, do you guys figure that most of the "pre-64" stuff was just spin ? Guys unwilling to accept change..

Not spin.
The fact that Winchester changed the most popular action, M-70, to the push feed was shocking to most. But what really bugged people is that in, '64 and for some years following, the guns just got cheesier. With cheap wood stocks, pourly shaped stocks with a big hump in the comb, cheesy pressed checkering, white line spacers, and cheap plastic forend caps, pot metal parts and other corner cutters.

All of the guns go bang. Nothing wrong with the push feed action. Although it got better after they added the "anti-bind" feature that is a slot cut in the right locking lug which mates with a rail cut into the receiver. That and the return of pre '64 steel floorplate and stainless follower came in 1968. Although they kept the pot metal trigger guard.

If the above issues don't bother you, then you might consider all the pre-'64/post-'64 controversy just spin. I stated my opinions, with some facts, in the first post and stand by them. Other opinions may vary.

The truth is, that the post-'92, "Classic" M-70 is better than the pre-'64s because of the "anti-bind" and "anti-blowback" features that were incorporated after '64. I think materials used are better too.

I don't know that much about the 94s, but as Rangr44 pointed out, early post '64s fell pray to corner cutting as well. I do know that after a period of time, Winchester made changes that were reminisent of the old pre-'64s..........Must of been a reason for that.
Don't know as the changes in the '94s was near as significant as the M-70.

saddlebum · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2011, 12:04:53 PM »

I remembered this article by Chuck Hawks online and thought I'd post it. In case anyone is interested.

This is Jack O'Conner's first impression of the post-'64 M-70,

"Sometime in the very early 1960's I was informed by Winchester brass that the Model 70 was being redesigned. I told them I was glad to get the information so I could lay in four or five more before they loused the rifle up."

"Then I saw the pilot model of the 'New Model 70.' At the first glimpse I like to fell into a swoon. The action was simplified, the trigger guard and floor plate made of a flimsy-looking one-piece stamping. The stock had stodgy lines and no checkering, and the barrel channel was routed out so much a herd of cockroaches could hold a ball below the barrel. On my first glimpse of the 'New Model 70' I was surrounded by the designers and by Winchester brass. I told them the creation would not sell, that it was one of the ugliest rifles I had ever seen."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/win_70.htm

bikerbeans · « **Reply #11 on:** October 06, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »

Slight thread hijack. I saw a pair of 30-30 Win 94s today and they appear to be of recent manufacture. The actual model number stamped on the barrel is "94 AE". What vintage and place of manufacture are these guns? Any problems?

thanks

BB

Ranch13 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2011, 04:11:18 PM »

Need more info, but they could of been built any time after 1983, to just now.
They have began producing the 94's again only this time from the Miroku plant. I have seen a couple of these rifles in levergun competition this year and they are extremely high quality.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2011, 01:32:35 AM »

Quote from: Ranch13 on October 06, 2011, 04:11:18 PM

Need more info, but they could of been built any time after 1983, to just now.
They have began producing the 94's again only this time from the Miroku plant. I have seen a couple of these rifles in levergun competition this year and they are extremely high quality.

I will get the serial #s off them.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2011, 02:19:10 AM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on October 06, 2011, 03:39:34 PM

Slight thread hijack. I saw a pair of 30-30 Win 94s today and they appear to be of recent manufacture. The actual model number stamped on the barrel is "94 AE". What vintage and place of manufacture are these guns? Any problems?

thanks

BB

I would guess if made in Japan they would say so. I have had several AE 94's they work fine in rifle cal. I have seen alot of handgun cal. rifles have feed problems. I have to say the ones with the safety on the side were a pain to use IMHO.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM »

I was counting on you fellows to talk me out of buying a 94.

The 94 AE is stamped made in New Haven, CT, no cross bolt safety, D/T for a scope but filler screws have never been touched. No blueing or wood issues at all, doesn't appear to have been fired as it still has a sticker on the stock that say "Walnut". It's sitting in the safe at the gunshop waiting for me to pay to finish paying for it. Tax, title, license etc. for $350, don't know if good or bad price but it was talking to me so I had to buy it and a set of used RCBS dies.

BB

smokehouserex · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:46:21 AM »

Hello bikerbeans:
I am sure that most of these gentlemen have more knowledge about the post 64 Winchesters than I do but I wanted to give a plug for Winchesters. I bought my first Win.mod.70 in 1968 at the base PX in naha Okinawa. Brought it home in oct. 1969 just in time for deer season here in SC. The rifle has put a lot of deer on the ground since then with one malfunction, the temp was in the teens and my son was using it. Of course the ftf would come when a big WT deer came into range. I pulled the bullets and powder and fired the primers, to this day I do not know what caused the ftf.
Otherwise the rifle has performed perfectly, good accuracy until the throat got frosty and worn, thousands of rounds have been fired through it, maybe 3000 rds or more. A very good gun in 30-06 cal.
I also have a 300 Wbr,cal. in a win mod.70 classic, bought in mid 90's it also is very accurate,my son and I both like this gun very much. For comparison we also own Rem 700's, Browning Xbolt, Browning Safari Grades and a lot of custom 98's just for comparison. The Winchesters are just as accurate and dependable, not as pretty or nostalgic as a pre 64 but they have satisfied my needs. JMO I trust you will enjoy yours as much as I have mine.
safety first
HM

Rangr44 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2011, 03:32:20 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on October 08, 2011, 08:07:11 AM

I was counting on you fellows to talk me out of buying a 94. The 94 AE is stamped made in New Haven, CT, no cross bolt safety, D/T for a scope but filler screws have never been touched. No blueing or wood issues at all, doesn't appear to have been fired as it still has a sticker on the stock that say "Walnut". It's sitting in the safe at the gunshop waiting for me to pay to finish paying for it. Tax, title, license etc. for $350, don't know if good or bad price but it was talking to me so I had to buy it and a set of used RCBS dies.

BB

$350 for a 1983-88, pre-safety, pre-rebounding hammer M94AE is a pretty decent buy, IMHO.

.

hillbill · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2011, 04:09:23 PM »

thats not a bad price if you want one that bad.id go for it if i wanted one and its primo.i got a guy wanting to sell me one here for 275$ but its got sum guys intials carved on the buttstock. cheesy. ill keep looking.i dont even need one just want one for my collection of 30-30 rifles.

saddlebum · « **Reply #19 on:** October 09, 2011, 06:32:18 AM »

"Winchester Model 94 Coming Back At You in 2011"
An article about the new 94s that came out this year. With pictures.

http://www.guns.com/winchester-model-94-coming-back-at-you-in-2011.html

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** October 10, 2011, 07:30:03 AM »

One thing about the old 94 often over looked is it is a sound defense rifle. It has worked for years. It is slim and short. It points natural. No there are no places to hang gimicks or tools. There is no pistol grip. And yea there is no mag to lose. There are alot of guys who can hit a running deer with one , some hit flying turkeys while others take heads off rabbits and birds.
Being so many are used for hunting and SSAS they don't draw negative attention like some rifles do. JUST SAYING ............

bikerbeans · « **Reply #21 on:** October 10, 2011, 10:33:02 AM »

The 94 AE is sitting in my bedroom with a box of Winchester 150 grain JSPs. Probably the only jacketed I will shoot (shop didn't have any 30-30 brass today) as I plan to shoot low velocity cast with Unique, 700X or maybe Trail boss if I can't get a good load with the pistol powders. Will correct the brass shortage when I order from Powder Valley or Grafs this weekend as I don't think 20 rounds will last very long at the range.

BB

saddlebum · « **Reply #22 on:** November 10, 2011, 04:54:38 PM »

Here is a queer model to me. It appears to be a "last year", (2005 or 6), model with the tang safety. It is stamped New Haven, Ct. But the butt plate says Winchester Repeating Arms instead of US Repeating Arms. And .44mag taboot!
Any sugestions or comments on this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=259450893

I don't like tang safeties, but this is a nice rifle.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 10, 2011, 05:12:36 PM »

If you know fire arms? Just compare the Pre-64 firearms with all the Post -64 Winchesters. You will never ask that qustion again.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** November 11, 2011, 03:30:23 AM »

Other than being angle ejct and a safety the reports are the new Browning made 94's are quite nice . Anyone had a hand on one yet ?

Ranch13 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 11, 2011, 03:41:16 AM »

I shot in a couple of levergun matches where there were 2 guys shooting the Cabela's 50th anniversary 38-55's. Those are certainly some well fitted guns. Also guaging from the Winchesters and Browning's I have that came from the Miroku plant, I doubt there'll be any of the QC problems that was plaquing the New Haven plant prior to it's closure.
Never have quite understood the kneejerk reaction to the AE or the tang safety. I find the tang safety to be one of the most ignorable things they could of done. It does not detract from the looks as the crossbolt thing did, just set it to fire and forget about it.
The AE was in repsonse to consumer demand and while it looks a little different from the original top eject, it really doesn't bother anything, but does give the option to mount a scope should one choose to do that.

Keith L · « **Reply #26 on:** November 20, 2011, 01:38:52 PM »

I just removed for the second time adds for guns. They do not belong on a discussion forum. If you must post them they need to go on the classifieds, even if it is to make a point about your opinion. They are ads, and not appropriate on a discussion forum.

saddlebum · « **Reply #27 on:** November 20, 2011, 02:04:23 PM »

Well it's nice to get an explanation this time so I know whats going on.
Thanks!

ratdog · « **Reply #28 on:** November 27, 2011, 07:23:57 AM »

i looked at a browning 1886 winchester 45-70. those are real nice real pricey though.

saddlebum · « **Reply #29 on:** November 27, 2011, 09:54:21 AM »

A point I was making buy placing ads from the internet in my posts, (but was deleted), was that lever actions made before the weird safeties and stuff can be had for less money than a new one with the safeties. I had posted unfired, new condition '94s that had sold for or were selling for about half the price of a new one and sometimes less. Some of them, still in the box. Just my opinion, but I would rather go that route than buy a new one. People who own the newer guns will defend their ownership of them. Thats fine. My opinion just differs from theirs. Especially when it comes to the price difference, features and my personal preference.