Author Topic: Has anyone chopped a .223 barrel to between 16 - 18" (Read 1818 times)

sitdwnandhngon · « **on:** September 20, 2011, 09:06:34 AM »

I saw a chopped down Handi at the store the other day and really liked the way it looked and carried. I have the 24" barrel and man is that thing heavy.

How much accuracy and muzzle velocity would I be sacrifing by getting it cut down to 16"?

Spanky · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2011, 11:32:53 AM »

Cutting it down shouldn't affect accuracy but it will slow it down a bit. The downside to shortening it will be noise. It will be quite a bit louder if you cut it to 16"
If you do decide to cut it down I would suggest cutting an inch off at a time and see how it feels. You want the gun to be balanced... neither muzzle heavy or butt heavy.
I know it would be labor intensive cutting an inch at a time but you might find out that it handles and points better at 18" or 19" etc. Remember... once you cut it off you can't put it back so make sure it's right for you.

Spanky

rockshooter · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:48:37 PM »

I cut mine down to 16.25". The balance point (with BC stock) is exactly under the chamber so it is easy to carry flat. Can't speak for velocity since my loads are fairly light. That little guy is LOUD however! I like the length since I carry it slung muzzle down and just push it across my legs when I squat.
Loren

myarmor · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:14:36 AM »

It's a personal choice, but man I hate to see anyone cut down a nice 24' bull barrel. If you really want a light easy to carry I suggest checking out the standard countour or SuperLight barrels.... and if you want even lighter you could cut down either of these.
Just a suggestion.

-Aaron

DukeInMaine · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2011, 11:58:23 AM »

Keep in mind that the BATF has a couple of restrictions:

16" barrel or LONGER. Don't accidentally cut it (on any sort of angle) to 15.9999 inches.

and

27" overall length..including stock.

If either of those two happen to be less, then you have a SBR (short barreled rifle), and you need to pay the tax, and register it as such.

Why mess with the accuracy? Or, tempt the law? Leave it as it is.

The only short .223/5.56 barrels that make any sense to me are the M4 full auto types, where they "spray and pray" in combat........ Real accuracy doesn't matter.

sitdwnandhngon · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2011, 02:21:11 PM »

If I do chop it I will likely have a smith do it.

I have cut and re crowned about 3 .22 rifles before, but they are just plinkers and coon hunting guns, I would want a professional job on my long range gun.

I'll tote it through the woods this winter for the whole year and see if I want to cut it down a bit.

gendoc · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2011, 02:46:37 PM »

i did one to 17" it wasa standard conture. it liked my performance handloads so much, i started reduce load'n for it with trailboss this pass summer for tree-rats out tha window at tha fish camp

a few them critters have popped up lately so i better getter back out for
exterminating before bow season opens on tha 15th 0ct....
cuz ain't much gunna get done roun hear till after january

Airsporter · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2011, 11:55:39 AM »

Quote from: DukeInMaine on September 21, 2011, 11:58:23 AM

The only short .223/5.56 barrels that make any sense to me are the M4 full auto types, where they "spray and pray" in combat........ Real accuracy doesn't matter.

FYI, the M4 is semi/3-shot burst, not semi/full auto like old M16A1. And, todays soldiers are trained to limit/ignore the 3-shot capability and use semi only. Accuracy matters. Spray and pray is a true sign of untrained, undisciplined troops.

44 Man · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2011, 08:33:28 AM »

I have had a couple of rifles (lever actions) cut to 18" and really enjoy that length. I also have owned a 14" contender pistol in .223 and that length was fine. Go for it! I love my guns 'light and handy'! The idea of a superlight barrel cut down appeals to me also. 44 Man

jackddavis · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2011, 09:26:55 PM »

Rule of thumb says you'll lose ~25FPS of MV/inch shortened. Actual loss may be slightly different. If you cut 6" you'll lose ~150 FPS MV. This doesn't affect accuracy, but will affect trajectory. It will also shorten sighting plane, if you're using iron sights. This will make the "shooters" part harder. If you're using a scope or red dot there isn't a sighting plane to worry about. If you want a shorter barrel, and aren't worried about the loss of MV, go for it. The worst thing that can happen is you'll send it in for a new barrel. I cut my .357 to 16.5" and love it. But then the .357 is a revolver cartridge and 16" is optimum for that caliber. At least for many loads in that caliber. I also cut off a 6.5mmX.257 Roberts bolt action to 18" and that made one nice shooter as well. Another nice thing about cutting off the Handi......you'll be cutting off some weight......and they can (IMO) stand to lose some.

geezer56 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2011, 05:07:41 AM »

I had a 308 that was cut to just over 16 in. It was LOUD! I wear shirts with 38 inch sleeves, and had a long huntsman forend on that one. It was too easy to wind up with a finger overlapping the muzzle, I was afraid of losing a digit, so I sold it to someone with shorter arms. I think 18 inches is about the shortest I would consider. The hack it an inch at a time til it feels right is a good idea, that way you can kind of walk in on what feels best to you.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 01, 2011, 05:18:03 PM »

On carbines I like a length that doesnt come too close to the ground if I drop it muzzle down, one handed. I cant tell you what length that would be for you, but it is something you 'know' when you handle one that is 'right'. Its kinda like a bicycle after that......

Flynmoose · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:44:10 PM »

I have a Handi in 223 with standard contour barrel. I wanted a 223 that I could break down and carry in a tool box with some ammo(boy scout time...be prepared). I also wanted to be able to do so without removing the scope each time. To that end, I had a gunsmith/friend cut the barrel to 16 1/2 inches with a nice recessed crown. The only difference, as mentioned before, was more noise. It still shoots the lights out and is easier to handle and shoot. It is now waiting in the closet, waiting to come out and play. I feel a coyote hunt coming on...soon!
FM

JMcDonald · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2011, 12:07:37 PM »

I bought my .308 Survivor two days ago during my lunch break. That night, I chopped the barrel to a hair under 16.5" using a cut-off wheel on my angle grinder, then I filed it level with a file. The next morning, I pulled the $30 scope off my .22, and bought some rings at Walmart. I brought 20 rounds of the cheapest stuff Academy had (Monarch) to the range that afternoon (got a long lunch break

). It took me three shots to get on the 6" gong at 100 yards. I then hit the 12" gong at 200 yards on the 4th shot. I took a few more shots getting it a little better centered (aiming to one side to see if it missed, etc). My last two shots were hits on the 6" gong at 200 yards.

This was from a bipod on the bench. For everything but the last two shots I was using 3x power, and for the last two shots I went up to 9x power on the scope.
The trigger needs work for sure, and this was the first 20 shots on a new rifle with an untouched forend, cheap ammo, a bottom-end scope of mediocre clarity, and a hacked-off barrel

. Plus, I definitely could use some more trigger time. So, I'd say it's still easily as accurate as I could have expected, and probably has the potential of greater accuracy than I could muster as a shooter. From what I've read and my own experience with chopping barrels, it isn't too hard to keep a barrel shooting well with a decent effort put into filing the muzzle back level and smoothing the crown manually with a dremel grinding bit. And, worst case, you take it to a shop anyways who will just machine-finish the crown as they would have anyways. Basically, IMO, it's really hard to lose anything more than a half-hour of tinkering time by chopping it yourself.

OHh, a guy there had a chronograph and offered to shoot a round through it. It ran 2636fps (150gr bullet), so it lost about 200fps from a full-length barrel. Given I was expecting closer to 2500fps, I am extremely pleased with its performance! I know .223 tends to have similarly small velocity losses within similar barrel lengths. For example, a 24" barrel might net you 3200 or 3300fps with a 55gr bullet, whereas a 16" barrel might give you 3000fps with the same bullet weight.

Do it!

My gun with the short barrel, ATI stock, and buttpad is 28.5" long, and I love it! The non-padded stock beat me up pretty quick so I immediately bought the butt pad after the range trip

. (BTW, I do know about that one problem with the stock collapsing, but there are thousands of these stocks of 12g shotguns without problems, and a close examination of the locking mechanism after these 20 rounds revealed no extra wear or deformation of the components.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2011, 01:35:18 PM »

I am glad (yes, I really am!) that you had such good luck with the self admitted hack-job. Worst part is that somebody else might be tempted to use a cut-off wheel to do the same and not fare so well. Though quick, I would rather see someone use a fine tooth hacksaw (yes, buy a brand new fine tooth blade) and take just a few more minutes trying to really do gun work. You will not make mistakes nearly as fast with hand tools.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2011, 02:19:51 PM »

I can't speak about a short .223 Handu, but I do have a 16-1/4" Contender carbine in .223. I got sick of looking for one in .22 Hornet, so I snapped up the first .223 that came along. I have shot it with full loads, but it is sighted in with a reduced load so it thinks it is a Hornet. Sub-inch groups eather way! I would expect a cut-down Handi to work as well.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #16 on:** October 05, 2011, 05:59:54 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on October 05, 2011, 01:35:18 PM

I am glad (yes, I really am!) that you had such good luck with the self admitted hack-job. Worst part is that somebody else might be tempted to use a cut-off wheel to do the same and not fare so well. Though quick, I would rather see someone use a fine tooth hacksaw (yes, buy a brand new fine tooth blade) and take just a few more minutes trying to really do gun work. You will not make mistakes nearly as fast with hand tools.

In my experience with cutting barrels at home, it's almost impossible to get a truly straight cut without a lathe, I think largely due to the taper. So, expect some filing either way. I've cut two other barrels with hacksaws, and one with a heavy-duty horizontal bandsaw in my old production shop, and none came out any more perpendicular than the others. Interestingly enough, this cut with the angle grinder came out straighter than any of the other three

.
Admittedly, I started to use the hacksaw but got about 1mm into that hardened steel bull barrel after several minutes and decided it was time to go with the power tools

. Though, I do have pretty extensive experience with an angle grinder and am probably better at it than your average guy in his garage. I think an inexperienced user would have had a hard time making a straight cut and not marring the barrel, though
In any case, I do think it makes a strong point that it really isn't that hard to keep a rifle decently accurate. My 10/22 was my first barrel to chop and shot as well as I ever wanted, both before and after I shortened the barrel. Again, however, say the worst happens and your barrel doesn't shoot worth a darn. You can still take it to a shop to have the muzzle faced and crowned like you were going to anyways, and all you lost was a half-hour of tinkering time (which I wouldn't personally call a loss

).

Here is a good read on chopping barrels with basic tools. It is what gave me the inspiration to do that 10/22 barrel.
http://www.castbullet.com/misc/hack.htm

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 06, 2011, 04:41:40 AM »

You do make a good point that cutting down a barrel is not that bad and a careful guy with basic tool skills can do it. The hard part is putting a front sight back on right, if needed!
Years ago I bought a wonderful, heavy duty hacksaw frame. What a difference from the typical hardware store frame of the day. With a bench vise at the right height, the right blade for the steel, and the proper saw stroke it made cutting pretty straight possible. A selection of good files, a vise and it are the basic 'machine shop'.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:11:36 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on October 06, 2011, 04:41:40 AM

You do make a good point that cutting down a barrel is not that bad and a careful guy with basic tool skills can do it. The hard part is putting a front sight back on right, if needed!
Years ago I bought a wonderful, heavy duty hacksaw frame. What a difference from the typical hardware store frame of the day. With a bench vise at the right height, the right blade for the steel, and the proper saw stroke it made cutting pretty straight possible. A selection of good files, a vise and it are the basic 'machine shop'.

Try JB Weld. I've done it and it works very well, I haven't had a sight fall off yet.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:37:56 AM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on October 06, 2011, 04:41:40 AM

made cutting pretty straight possible. A selection of good files

Oh yeah, my point was mostly that some filing is almost an absolute necessity anyways without using a lathe

. Not that one method cannot be straighter than another, just that you'll still have to file. Though my angle-grinder cut was straighter than both my bandsaw and hacksaw cuts

.

I'm headed to the range this morning to test out a series of new loads! I shot about 2MOA last time out so maybe I'll do even better this time (or my wobble will prevent me from being able to tell

).

Default_Required · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:39:03 AM »

Variety is the spice of life my friends ... I say get to cutting, There are plenty of bullet designs for the 223/556 to mate to a 16/18" 223 barrel for whatever you may want or ask of it , And I have to say I do like the look of the shortened barrel on the handi..
Aaron does make a good point though with the 223 super-lite youth model barrel, I have one in the 243 and it is light set-up you would keep better velocity in the 223.. But you wouldnt have that stubby fat barrel look and the groups would open as you warm it up I suspect. I wonder what the diameter difference between a 24" HB and a 22" standard contour are at 17".. Anyone know?

Had another thought towards the increased report concern , If you are going to go to a smith for the cut then having him thread it in the common thread pattern of most 223/556 muzzle break/ compensator would allow you to use an item like this break that directs the report more down range. I am considering one of these for effect as well as looks. But my need is for a 20" HB threaded E.R Shaw for my M10 Savage 308

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 21, 2011, 05:14:48 AM »

I would think that by making a superlight type barrel shorter it would increase the rigidity and help the group potential with subsequent shots. Each barrel is magic, or a snakepit of it's own though.......

ratdog · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2011, 08:32:16 AM »

i have cut many military barrels shorter with no noticeable effect always needed a little filing i like the way quick did it wrap the cutting area with tape then use a sawsall less work use fine blade.

rdlange · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2011, 10:10:56 AM »

I've cut several barrels recently. Hacksaw then file. Then...

I use a Lee case trimmer with a trimmer pilot smaller than the bore, shimmed with scotch 'magic' tape in two places to fill out to bore diameter wrapping against the twist of the Lee cutter. 243 pilot for 30 cal. Tap magic cutting oil.

It makes a nice recess in the muzzle end of the barrel perpendicular to the bore. Did it to a resurrected 30-30 Marlin last month which then shot two consecutive 1" groups with 170 federal. So the method works. Google "Lee trimmer muzzle crown". Found it here:

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=63966

I finish off with a brass round head bolt spun against the sharp bore edges, dipped in Flitz metal polish. Examine carefully with a magnifier as you go slow to insure the small 'ring' is symmetrical. Simple and easy enough even I could do it.

Oh, the trimmer pilot hole is 10x24 so I got a 3" smooth sided bolt that size, cut off the head and am now ready to cut .223 or .243 when I get the urge.

Note that the trimmer is a wee bit small to do a .45 cal barrel, but with care it could be made to work.

Be well...

Default_Required · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2011, 05:08:05 AM »

Quote from: rdlange on October 21, 2011, 10:10:56 AM

I've cut several barrels recently. Hacksaw then file. Then...

I use a Lee case trimmer with a trimmer pilot smaller than the bore, shimmed with scotch 'magic' tape in two places to fill out to bore diameter wrapping against the twist of the Lee cutter. 243 pilot for 30 cal. Tap magic cutting oil.

It makes a nice recess in the muzzle end of the barrel perpendicular to the bore. Did it to a resurrected 30-30 Marlin last month which then shot two consecutive 1" groups with 170 federal. So the method works. Google "Lee trimmer muzzle crown". Found it here:

http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=63966

I finish off with a brass round head bolt spun against the sharp bore edges, dipped in Flitz metal polish. Examine carefully with a magnifier as you go slow to insure the small 'ring' is symmetrical. Simple and easy enough even I could do it.

Oh, the trimmer pilot hole is 10x24 so I got a 3" smooth sided bolt that size, cut off the head and am now ready to cut .223 or .243 when I get the urge.

Note that the trimmer is a wee bit small to do a .45 cal barrel, but with care it could be made to work.

Be well...

Thats a heck of an idea, Will keep this in mind if I get around to trying a barrel cut by hand.

Anyone ever take the time with their caliper to measure barrel diameter on a contour 308 at 17" ?

quasne.inc · « **Reply #25 on:** October 22, 2011, 12:57:03 PM »

JMcDonald that survivor in .308 is freaking awesome. I was thinking about doing that to mine when I get it. After seeing yours I definantly am.

JMcDonald · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2011, 01:40:10 PM »

Thanks!
I loaded up 80 rounds and took them to the range yesterday morning. There were 20 each of 41, 42, 43, and 44gr of H335 (surplus WC844 powder).
I was shooting at 75 yards. The first three shots off my bipod were 1.5" across (2MOA at 75yds), with two touching. I am really not that stable a shooter, so I was pretty pleased with this grouping, especially considering I was just aiming generally at the center of a white sheet of paper (no precise aiming point).
Unfortunately, I apparently didn't clean the case lube out well out of one case and the 4th shot of those 80 rounds was a dud. But, it it still just barely wedged the bullet into the rifling, and the case came out without it (getting unburned powder everywhere). I did not have a cleaning rod with me, so this cut my 80rd range trip down to 3 rounds. When I got home I was able to easily tap it out by lightly dropping the cleaning rod down the bore. But, like I said, at least I know it can shoot at least as well as I can! I seriously struggle keeping it stable, so I'm sure a better shooter would do much better.
So, on to the shop to pull 76 bullets!