Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome (PTSS)

[RB Rooson]

You hear about it all the time causing our returning troops to be more violent at home and suffering mental problems.
 
Now I am wondering.....would it not be the same for members of Al Queda and the Taliban?  I would think that there would be a whole bunch of them flipping out, especially as they commit much more horrific acts than our soldiers do on a continuing basis.  The blowing up of school buses and the killing of unarmed, innocent civilians has got to work on their heads, doesn't it??

[45-70.gov]

PTSS  does not affect  successful suicide bombers

[powderman]

The blowing up of school buses and the killing of unarmed, innocent civilians has got to work on their heads, doesn't it??
 
 
NO, not really, it's what they live for, killing innocents. It's different with  our soldiers because human life is dear to them and means something, not so with muslims. Human life means nothing to them, not even their own children. POWDERMAN. 

[Sourdough]

Just had a Courts Marshal last week.  A young troop duct taped his wife to a chair, and choked her to death.  He had recently returned from Iraq when he did it.  We are seeing some type of distressed behavior all the time here at the post.  They are deployed for a year to 18 months, then home for a one year, then back again.  Wives killed, wives beaten, kids beaten, and the suicides.  All happening on a regular basis.  A lot of it is not publicized, no need to let the civilian world know every time something happens. 

The Army is trying to reach all the troops, but sometimes it just does not work.  It affects different people in different ways.  Some people have no PTSS at all.  What they did was right in their minds, (they never killed anyone that did not need killing, totally justified in their minds), they have no regrets, and they can handle the stress.  Others are not as lucky.  They may have never killed anyone, and in some cases never seen anyone killed, just the stress of being there is more than they are able to handle.  Hearing the chatter of machine guns, the explosions knowing someone just got killed, and the fear that a bomb or RPG could land in their vacinity at any minute is too much for them.  They put up a front, that they are OK, but inside they are being torn apart.  Once they are home, the idea of going back is more than they can bear.

As for the Muslims, they are trained from an early age to do what they are doing, kill infadels.  Even the women are trained.  They have no regrets it makes them a hero.

[spikehorn]

The blowing up of school buses and the killing of unarmed, innocent civilians has got to work on their heads, doesn't it??
 
 
NO, not really, it's what they live for, killing innocents. It's different with  our soldiers because human life is dear to them and means something, not so with muslims. Human life means nothing to them, not even their own children. POWDERMAN. 

+1 what powder said

[lakota]

As for the Muslims, they are trained from an early age to do what they are doing, kill infadels.  Even the women are trained.  They have no regrets it makes them a hero.

You hit the nail on the head here. Different upbringing+different values=people who place little value on human lives.

[powderman]

As for the Muslims, they are trained from an early age to do what they are doing, kill infadels.  Even the women are trained.  They have no regrets it makes them a hero.

You hit the nail on the head here. Different upbringing+different values=people who place little value on human lives.

 
YEP. Gods people have a conscience, satans doesn't. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

Part of the reason it is so stressful for our troops is because American society frowns upon them talking about or even enjoying killing. After you have been to combat, ya best not let anyoone know that it didn't bother you or that you enjoyed it. Soldiers are being diagnosed as sociopathic for doing their job and enjoying it. Trust me I know this from personal experience. People really give you some looks if you tell them that killing an enemy was an enjoyable  thrilling experience.

[Sourdough]

Billy: you are right, there is that large portion of our society that frowns on killing a man, no matter what the circumstances.  If they find out you have done that they frown on you forever. 

1968, I was 19 years old.  Working in a grocery store.  Since graduating high school I had been promoted to helping with store management.  One evening I was in the front office counting up checks received that day.  I had dropped a stack of checks, and was bent over picking them up off the floor.  A man walked in, looked to see if the front office was manned.  Seeing no one there, he pulled a gun and ordered the cashiers to give him their money.  One cashier did as told and give him the money from her register.  The second one, (an old biddy that no one liked) popped the key out of her register and threw it back into the store aisles.  The gunman got mad and was threatening her.  I had heard what was going on.  The store manager kept a gun in the desk drawer where I was working.  I pulled it out, stood up, ane pointed it at the gunman.  The guy was yelling that he was going to shoot her.  My brother (a bagger) yelled at him.  The gunman turned the gun towards my brother.  Now I am scared that my little brother was going to be shot.  I did not give it any thought, I stepped forward, placed the gun six inches from the base of the guys skull and shot him.  Killed him instantly, coroner said it severed the brain stem.  I never lost one night sleep over it.  To me I saved my brothers life, and I just did what I had to do.  The Sheriff said it was a justifiable shooting, no charges against me.  In fact the Sheriff reported to the paper I saved lives, and it was printed in the local paper that way. 

But, there was a lot of bad results that came about towards me over that.  Suddenly women customers that had always been friendly and spoke, started avoiding me.  Then I heard that some customers had changed stores, because they did not feel comfortable around me.  Girls that had been in my graduating class also started avoiding me.  My mother would not let it go, she kept bringing it up with her friends when I was around.  Female relatives just had to ask how I was dealing with it every time we met.  I was glad when I left home to go into the Air Force two months later.

It's been over 40 years since I shot that man, but at my 40 year class reunion, two female classmates brought it up, and asked how I was living with that on my conscience.  I just ignored the first one.  I told the second one, "It seems to bother you a lot more than it bothers me".   

It's not something I brag about, but it is something I don't deny either.  It just never comes up under most situations.  I've had other incidents happen since then, but again I have not lost any sleep over them either.  I was in the right, they were not.

Again, with the troops, just going home on leave can be stressful.  Distance relatives always seem to ask questions that should not be asked.  Not just the women either, but men who have never been there and do not know how the troop feels or is dealing with it.  Subtle condemnation, either real or percieved, is more than some men can bear.  Even for the ones that can handle it, it often makes for a stressful condition.  People that do understand are not always there to help them deal with the stress either.

So if any of you have family members or friends that are serving and they come home to visit,  Make sure your family members don't ask things that are better left alone.

[powderman]

ROG. Thank you for sharing that touching story. I'm glad it didn't bother you, it shouldn't have either. POWDERMAN. 

[OldSchoolRanger]

You hear about it all the time causing our returning troops to be more violent at home and suffering mental problems.
 
Now I am wondering.....would it not be the same for members of Al Queda and the Taliban?  I would think that there would be a whole bunch of them flipping out, especially as they commit much more horrific acts than our soldiers do on a continuing basis.  The blowing up of school buses and the killing of unarmed, innocent civilians has got to work on their heads, doesn't it??

Only if you have a conscience, and believe in a merciful god.

Sourdough - I told the second one, "It seems to bother you a lot more than it bothers me".
Your answer to those girls was right on, and you have the right attitude.  Maybe you should have asked them if they would have been happier if your little brother was shot instead. 

[Brett]

I think I would have told those classmates that it would be a lot more difficult to live with myself if I had watched my brother get killed when I could have done something about it but didn't.

Not everyone would have had the guts to do what needed to be done, especially at that young age.     

[powderman]

I think I would have told those classmates that it would be a lot more difficult to live with myself if I had watched my brother get killed when I could have done something about it but didn't.

Not everyone would have had the guts to do what needed to be done, especially at that young age.   

 
BRETT. WEll said. POWDERMAN. 

[bkraft]

I don't think it is really anything new. I grew up around several WWI vets and many from WWII and Korea and those that saw the most combat had the most demons. One of the WWI vets told my grandfather a WWI Marine that not a night went by that he did not hear the screams of the wounded and dying horses and mules, that guy was in the artillery. Everybody either knew of, or had a realitive that came back that was never "quite right." Some drank or beat their spouses or both. Today it is recognized and at least trying to be dealt with and treated. In other times they were expected to tough it out. The human mind is a fragile thing.

[Old Fart]

I was thinking about this yesterday. One of the things that crossed my mind was that kids these days are not all raised the same way they were in the past. Heck a bunch of them are not even raised in a home where there is a male role model. So where do they learn how to handle stress? From a part time mom who has to work long hours or two jobs maybe. Not trying to solve the worlds problem here, just saying. Most of us grew up with a dad who told us to tough it out. We kind of learned how to blow off steam early. Some of these young fellows may just be dealing with something they have no idea to cope with on the most basic level. Let alone considering it's a new war.

[magooch]

Sourdough,
After reading your beginning post, I couldn't think of anything that I thought would be appropriate as a comment, so I let it go.  It bothered me enough that I had to come back and say thanks.  Thanks for doing something that I'm sure many of us have wondered if we would have the wherewithal and clear mind to do what needed to be done.  And thanks for possibly saving who knows how many victims from the creep that you put down.  Thanks.

[powderman]

Very few men went through any more brutal combat than my Dad did in WW11. He talked little about it but we found out a lot from his old army buddies, those that lived. He didn't drink, never hit Mom, and we extremely rarely got punished, we were good kids. Many times Pop would tell me to have a bunch of worms dug when he got home from work, we'd go to the little Wabash river just a few miles away. He said that time spent fishing was the best phychiatrist in the world. In later years he did talk a bit about the war. He said killing a man was a hard thing to do, but he would kill you if you didn't kill him. He said that after a short while that killing japs was no different than killing rabid dogs or rats. He did a great job raising his family. He's been gone since 1977, I still miss him. POWDERMAN. 

[AtlLaw]

I don't think that the killing of enemy combatants gives our soldiers, not all of course, much pause.  In my opinion, for what that's worth, it is the maiming and dieing of his brothers in arms that has the most detrimental effect on the individual Trooper.

[Sourdough]

Guys, that last post was not about me.  I only used my situation as an example of the way people treat others.  It was about the way society puts a stigma on people that does have to kill someone.  In some cases that stigma last forever. 

To deal with the stress sometimes the troop tries to make light of it.  That works around his buddies that are in the same situation, but it is wrong around others that have not walked in his shoes.  Then the rejection he feels is unbearable.

We all want to be liked by our peers.  We all handle that rejection differently.

I will always remember how one of my Mom's cousins Estel went off to war during WWII.  As a child I always heard from my Grandma and my Mom how Estel was never right after he came back from the war.  Seemed fine to me, but I did not know him before the war.  Never knew what was different about him, and they could not tell me when I asked.  But I know Estel was treated different than his twin brother Ernest.  Estel had been a Marine in the South Pacific.  He never talked about the war when he returned home.  Estel took his debriefing seriously when he was told not to talk about what he had seen and done during the war, for he never did.

My Father-In-Law never talked about what he did during the War either.  Only after his daughter had gone into the Air Force, and her and I were married.  One after noon, he said since we were both active duty that he felt he could talk to us.  He told us how he had been told not to talk to civilians about what he had done and seen.  Civilians would not understand, and would take thing wrong.  He had lived by that rule till then.  That night after all those years he broke down.  He cried, he swore at the Germans, But he finally had a sounding post.  He talked from the middle of the afternoon to the wee hours of the morning.  His way of handling PTSS was to never talk about it, and therefore he was in denial all those years.  He drove himself, and kept so busy he never had time to think about the war years.  He told me years later that the one night he talked about his war years made a difference in how he felt after that.  He had needed to get it off his chest.

[bigMikeA]

I don't think that the killing of enemy combatants gives our soldiers, not all of course, much pause.  In my opinion, for what that's worth, it is the maiming and dieing of his brothers in arms that has the most detrimental effect on the individual Trooper.

As the father of an Army Captain and close acquaintance of other veterans, I believe that to be absolutely correct.  And most likely compounded by the ridiculous ROE that result in much  of the maiming and dieing of  our troops.

[spikehorn]

My dad will turn 90 on Oct. 26. He never talked about the war either. He's agood man and raised six good children. I asked him once sometime after I turned 12 and got my hunting liscense if would be interested in going hunting. His reply was "No thanks I had enough of guns during the war."

[Dinny]

In my opinion, for what that's worth, it is the maiming and dieing of his brothers in arms that has the most detrimental effect on the individual Trooper.

+1


So far, PTSS has not affected me. I have horrible thoughts all the time, mostly at work, but have never acted-out on any of them. Maybe I shouldn't go to work anymore...   I did have a problem two years ago with recurring nightmares. I was deployed and visiting military hospitals all over Iraq and Afg. Seeing the wounded soldiers reminded me too much of the days when I had been the one providing lifesaving care to them on the battlefield. Not good memories at all...   In fact, I wish they would go away, never to be remembered again. Too much pain...




Thanks, Dinny

[XD40SC]

Everyone reacts differently. We had 2 men in my hometown that were in WWII . My dad said the one would drop grenades down the hatch of German Tanks. The other was  in the Pacific fighting the Japanese. Neither were right in the head. The one would walk the river bank that went through our home town looking for Japs. He often warned us about Japs coming up the river. One day he decided to guard the local bank from Japs, He stood in front of it with a shotgun and checked everyone entering to see if they were Japs. That's the day they took him away. My dad said they were normal guys but never were the same after the war.

[jlwilliams]

There is an excellent book about PTSD for those who want to know more.  It's "On Killing".  I don't remember the Author's name, but he's an Army Ranger, and a professor of psychology (and amateur history buff) so his perspective is better than most authors who may be (for lack of a better term) academic egg-heads.
 
 He talks a lot about the psychological effects of combat on different people and about how the culture you grow up in (and the culture you go home to) may effect those who have to kill and return home.  There are a lot of factors that effect how a person may recover from the trauma.  It's way more than I could go into here, even if I felt qualified to spell out his work.  I read it a few years ago, but I'm not an expert on PTSD.
 
  I don't want to be too provocative about the worlds most populace religion, but the Arabic/Muslim world has significantly different norms than Apple Pie America.  They don't see things the same as we do. That said, those who participate in atrocities (ie-school bus bombings) do undoubtedly have post traumatic stress unless they are psychotic.  There are those in society who can murder innocents without regret.  The "Global Jihad" gives psychos a place to do their thing.  It's not strictly true to say that Muslims are OK with that.  Muslims do have a different view of killing in combat then most Americans do, but not that different.
 
 

[ironglow]

I don't think that the killing of enemy combatants gives our soldiers, not all of course, much pause.  In my opinion, for what that's worth, it is the maiming and dieing of his brothers in arms that has the most detrimental effect on the individual Trooper.

As the father of an Army Captain and close acquaintance of other veterans, I believe that to be absolutely correct.  And most likely compounded by the ridiculous ROE that result in much  of the maiming and dieing of  our troops.

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     Big Mike, Atlaw, Powerman, Dinny...
   I think you're all right on.  As a grandpa of a current Spec Ops Marine, and acquaintance of other troops..all spec Ops , all combat experienced...one a Marine handler of bomb detection dogs, the other an oft-deployed Army Ranger,  neither I nor their families (all close friends) have noticed any manifestation of the problem, still we pray that none does come about.
   Each of them have shared some experiences with me, although not always in explicit detail.  Then too, each is security cleared either 'secret' or 'top secret'..so I didn't probe much and they were careful.
     Their wounded and killed companions certainly bothered them much more than the wounded & killed enemy. 
        I have a theory..  Each of these men are solid, convicted Christians and used that for a solid basis for their duties.
  When my grandson recieved his first orders for deployment, he knew automatically that he was destined for serious action, being Spec Ops and a "designated sniper" for his unit.  He then had a long conversation with his Pastor, with his Dad and myself, and then an extended conversation with his God.  He got his mind settled, his determination set and turned his face toward war.
   In his heart and on a slip of paper in his pocket, he carried the first six verses of Psalm 27;
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 1.  The Lord is my ^alight and my ^bsalvation; whom shall I ^cfear? the Lord is the ^dstrength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
2 When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.
3 Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.
4 One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may ^adwell in the ^bhouse of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the ^cbeauty of the Lord, and to ^denquire in his temple.
5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his ^apavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a ^brock.
6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord
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     Dinny; Here's a thanks for your service..  In my grandson's unit the medics (Corpsmen) were greatly appreciated and members were certainly appreciative of their skills and courage.
 
   BTW: It;s Corpsman (pronounced core-man)..definitely not Corpse-man...    
   

[Swampman]

You hear about it all the time causing our returning troops to be more violent at home and suffering mental problems.
 
Now I am wondering.....would it not be the same for members of Al Queda and the Taliban?  I would think that there would be a whole bunch of them flipping out, especially as they commit much more horrific acts than our soldiers do on a continuing basis.  The blowing up of school buses and the killing of unarmed, innocent civilians has got to work on their heads, doesn't it??

I don't believe in PTSS.

[Shu]

I was having lunch last week with some friends. I have the least combat experience of them so was listening to what they had to say. The guys are mostly former spec ops from Viet Nam to date. For the most part they believed in the need for them to do thier jobs. Each said the more successful he was the more American troops he could save. A couple said they enjoyed being deployed and they didn't believe PTSS was real, another said he could see faces in his sleep.
The Sgt Mjr had the idea that upbringing and a strong sense of duty kept people from going over the edge. There is alot of help out there for our troops, as citizens we need to support them in everyway we can.
Master Guns said the news media brings alot of negativity and that cuased alot of problems.
Me, I just think we all handle things differently. There is nothing wrong with seeking counseling if you think you need it.
What the Master Chief said was not repeatable.
 

[ironglow]

  Shu said;
 " The guys are mostly former spec ops from Viet Nam to date. For the most part they believed in the need for them to do thier jobs. Each said the more successful he was the more American troops he could save. A couple said they enjoyed being deployed and they didn't believe PTSS was real, another said he could see faces in his sleep".

   That may well be another point..all 3 troops I referred to above were Spec Ops, and were duty-driven and bound to "cover the backs" of fellow troops.  As I said earlier, all 3 had a very similar background, serious Christians and raised with value-driven, strong disciplinary parents.
   
          I don't deny PTSS..just don't know enough about it. 
 
   Another situation:   I do recall that recent dust-up concerning Toyotas which were supposedly accelerating unexpectedly and causing accidents.  After extensive testing, the cars were found to be fine.. but once the govt (their main competition) had accused Toyota..people who screwed up had found an excuse.
 
          Likely there are a few folks need an excuse, after they mess up !.

[bigMikeA]

   
   
          I don't deny PTSS..just don't know enough about it. 
 
   
 
          Likely there are a few folks need an excuse, after they mess up !.

Agreed....     

[yellowtail3]

Billy: you are right, there is that large portion of our society that frowns on killing a man, no matter what the circumstances.  If they find out you have done that they frown on you forever. 

Cirmcumstances always ought to be taken into consideration.
 
an aside, if you don't mind - how many have you killed, besides the guy in the store? Any others?