Author Topic: Help-Talk me out of getting a .22 hornet 1885 (Read 4801 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** September 23, 2011, 08:51:30 AM »

Dear Guys,

I am going to start close range varmint hunting, generally 75 yards or less, for coyotes and fox. I live in an area where farms are small, and too much noise may be a problem. So, for me, a .223 is out.

I am strongly thinking about getting a new Winchester 1885 in .22 Hornet. (I really like the looks of those 1885s.)

But, I do not (and will not) hand load, and I have heard that lots of .22 Hornets can be really inaccurate out of the box.

The Browning version of the 1885 in Hornet had a .223 barrel, so this is probably one of the main reasons for its accuracy problems.

I think the newer Winchester 1885s have the .224 barrel, so maybe they won't have as many problems.

As far as accuracy, a consistent 1.5 MOA would be fine with me, though any larger would be a problem.

Advice?

Maybe I should just forget the whole thing?

Thanks, Mannyrock

gr8ful · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2011, 09:06:37 AM »

Mannyrock,

You will hate it, then want to sell it to me, CHEAP!! Seriously, .22 hornet is a great little round for close range varmiting. Try the Hornady 35gr V-max load. good luck

Rangr44 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2011, 09:11:10 AM »

I have the same constraints, here in Southern New England, and while I've used a Hornet from time-to-time (I don't handload for it, either) - I find the .22 RFM (Magnum) a better choice, as the ammo's less expensive, and the 'yote's are just as out-of-commission.

I know that doesn't help your M1885 lust much - but, heck............. maybe you can rechamber a .22LR M1885.

.

BruceP · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2011, 08:37:42 PM »

I have the Browning version and have not shot over one box of factory loads but mine grouped right at an inch with Remington 45 gr. hp loads.

Bruce

Torwe · « **Reply #4 on:** September 24, 2011, 07:44:10 AM »

I do not have either so can't speak for them. I do have a Handi 22 hornet which is reamed to k hornet. For accuracy mine is holding a consistant 1" group while I am fireforming k hornet cases. It is an excellent and accurate calibre for what it is designed for and I would imagine no matter what the brand.

.22-5-40 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2011, 06:47:58 PM »

Hello, Mannyrock. I am curious how you came to find the barrels were .223 groove dia.?
The standard groove dia. for any .22 centerfire in the U.S. has been .224 dia. since WW2. Why would Win./Mikouru go to the expense of retooling for an odd bore size?

BruceP · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2011, 08:35:54 PM »

I'm not Manny but I had heard that the Browning low wall hornets were .223" so I call Browning and asked. I was told that they were indeed .223". Now as to the Winchester version I don't have a clue about them.

Bruce

mannyrock · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2011, 05:36:00 AM »

Yes, there appears to be no question that Browning/Miroku used a .223 barrel. This has been researched and confirmed many times, including by Graybeard himself.

Browning/Miroku didn't go to any extra expense by using a .223 barrel. They saved money by just using the same barrels that they use for their regular .223 Remington rifles. In other words, they scr*wd us to save a few bucks.

Of course, they had an esoteric cover story to justify their actions. The original .22 Hornet barrels, prior to WWII, were actually .223 caliber. And, I believe that one of the major ammo makers actually still makes factory ammo in both .223 and .224 for the Hornet.

Since I would never be using 50 or 55 grain ammo (which absolutely won't stabilize in the .223 barrel), I am trying to find out from folks how the factory 45 grain ammo does in their Brownings. I have had a couple people tell me that the Winchester white box shoots OK, but I would like to hear from more folks if possible.

I don't know if the newer Winchester low walls used a .223 or a .224. Maybe somebody knows? I am trying not to go that route, since they weight about 8.5 pounds!

Thanks, Mannyrock

.22-5-40 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2011, 12:25:32 PM »

There are many rifles/calibers out there..such as .219 Donaldson Wasp, .218 Bee,.222 Rem. .220 Swift, .223,
They all have one thing in common..all have .224 groove dia. brls. Has anyone sluggged one of these bores..especially curious about the "regular .223" Rem." having a .223 groove!

Flash · « **Reply #9 on:** October 03, 2011, 10:35:33 AM »

I had a couple Hornets and found the powder charge to be sensitive, down to the flake. I couldn't throw consistant charges from my dispenser since the accuracy depends on charges that are dead on. I would much sooner have a 22 magnum than a Hornet. My best platform was a Contender carbine with a Fox Ridge barrel and the target looked more like a shotgun patterning target than a rifle target. Do yourself a favor and get a 22 magnum

gr8ful · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2011, 11:44:04 AM »

Quote from: Flash on October 03, 2011, 10:35:33 AM

I had a couple Hornets and found the powder charge to be sensitive, down to the flake. I couldn't throw consistant charges from my dispenser since the accuracy depends on charges that are dead on. I would much sooner have a 22 magnum than a Hornet. My best platform was a Contender carbine with a Fox Ridge barrel and the target looked more like a shotgun patterning target than a rifle target. Do yourself a favor and get a 22 magnum

The problem here wasn't the .22 Hornet, it was your loading practices. With small capacity cases the difference in a Min. and a Max powder charge is very small, in the hornet as small as 1 grain. No dispencer is that accurate. ALL powder charges should be weighed when reloading for the hornet or any other small capacity case. Reloading is one of those hobbies that you should take the time to learn to do right. Buy a manual and read the first couple of chapters all of the proper procedures and warnings are layed out to where even a novice can proceed safely. If you are not willing to do that, then you are far better off only shooting factory ammo. Be safe!

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #11 on:** October 03, 2011, 11:48:18 AM »

I have both the Hornet and a CZ .22mag..I have found the Browning Abolt Hornet to b e very accurate and flex able round...it has shot everything from cottontails to whitetails...While I would not condone using it normally in whitetail hunting, it is a great round...as far as loading, it was no more difficult than other rds...as for the magnum this one shoots fine..I have had about 5 of them 3 were horrible two were very good..I guess it would depend mostly on what you want to use the rifle for...small game and varmits, close, the mag. would work.....for varmits at up to 150 yards the hornet would get the nod ...do your self a favor and buy both.....

pastorp · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2011, 07:11:02 PM »

I love the Browning 1885s, they have something many guns lack. Class

. Manny I believe I would just try one in hornet and see. Just buy wisely so you can get your investment back if it dosen't work out.

My Midsouth shooters supply catalog shows they still carry the Sierra 40gr hornet bullet in .223. Of course thats a reload proposition but since the bullets are still produced maybe someone loads factory ammo. Probably one of the custom loaders like Reeds that advertises here on GBO.

Luck in your search.

Flash · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2011, 10:04:57 AM »

Quote from: gr8ful on October 03, 2011, 11:44:04 AM

Quote from: Flash on October 03, 2011, 10:35:33 AM
I had a couple Hornets and found the powder charge to be sensitive, down to the flake. I couldn't throw consistant charges from my dispenser since the accuracy depends on charges that are dead on. I would much sooner have a 22 magnum than a Hornet. My best platform was a Contender carbine with a Fox Ridge barrel and the target looked more like a shotgun patterning target than a rifle target. Do yourself a favor and get a 22 magnum

The problem here wasn't the .22 Hornet, it was your loading practices. With small capacity cases the difference in a Min. and a Max powder charge is very small, in the hornet as small as 1 grain. No dispencer is that accurate. ALL powder charges should be weighed when reloading for the hornet or any other small capacity case. Reloading is one of those hobbies that you should take the time to learn to do right. Buy a manual and read the first couple of chapters all of the proper procedures and warnings are layed out to where even a novice can proceed safely. If you are not willing to do that, then you are far better off only shooting factory ammo. Be safe!

I assume you're addressing me. I've been reloading for 35 years and found the Hornet to be not worth the trouble of reloading it. It's not a case of me doing it improperly, it's a case of me not having the time to waste, making something i can buy for a smaller investment.

gr8ful · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2011, 03:37:15 PM »

Your post implied that you were not weighing your charges, as even the cheapest balance beam scales will get your charges "right on". Relying on a powder dispencer for accuracy is just bad practice, and you may get away with it for many years but that doesn't make it any better. Just as an experiment, I set up my Lyman powder dispenser to drop 10.5gr of IMR 4198 which is the starting load for .22 Hornet with a 45gr bullet from my Hodgdon No. 26 Manual. I then dropped 50 charges, weighing each charge, and returned the charge back into the hopper. I was very careful to try and throw each charge the same. The results were a low of 9.3gr and a high of 11.7 gr with an average of 10.1 gr. Considering that the Max DO NOT EXCEED load is 11.5gr, I would conclude that the practice of loading for the 22 hornet directly from a powder dispencer, without weighing each charge will not be accurate and possibly dangerous. Saying that the Hornet is inaccurate while loading for it that way is like saying your car was a lemon because you crashed it while driving drunk.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2011, 03:41:39 PM »

If you want quiet and shoot at short ranges, get a Contender carbine, a Ruger 77 rimfire, or a Savage in .17 HMR. It is a very accurate cartridge and should work very well. Both .17's that I have owened, a Ruger 77/17 and my current Contender carbine, consistantly group under 1" at 100 yd. The same goes for the .22 Magnum, which might be a better choice for coyotes. Since you don't handload, the ammo doesn't cost much and will allow you to get in plenty of practice without breaking the bank. Both are quite a bit quieter than even the .22 Hornet.

Dalgo · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2011, 05:55:47 AM »

Mannyrock, follow your desires. Get yourself a Browning Low Wall in .22 Hornet! Neat gun, neat caliber. There's a reason it has been around for over 100 years. And it's getting more popular! It is very accurate. Learn to reload for it. Discover what it likes and dislikes. It's a journey, and one that will have you developing a real bond with it. Get yourself a copy of Rifle Magazine, Issue No. 193 (Jan/Feb 2001), and Handloader Magazine, Issue No. 209 (Jan/Feb 2001). These are Parts 1 and 2 of an article by Ross Seyfried, available on DVD by Wolf publishing. Well worth the read! What a superb little caliber! The Browning Low Wall is a peach of a gun - well balanced and compact. Available also in the Lyman (Chiappa Arms) miniature Sharps, and many others. But you especially can't go wrong with the Browning/Winchester. Great combination gun/caliber. Go for it, you won't be sorry.

Dalgo

eastbank · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2011, 04:08:19 PM »

i own and shoot a CZ 680K in .22 hornet, and i have every thing needed(cases,bullets and powder) to load for it but have found prvi partizan to shoot very well,so i bought 10 boxes at 16.00 a box. the target was shot at 100yds from a bench rest with a 2x7 leupold scope,the four shot group is under a inch center to center. i have shot crows out of trees at close to 150 yds with it. eastbank.

martineta · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2011, 11:32:10 PM »

I never had any trouble loading for my hornet encore. I get the powder close with the dispencer then use a trickler over my electronic scale for the final weight I am looking for. I do this for all my accuracy loads in whatever caliber. My hornet likes 45 grain round nose hollow points better than Nosler Ballistic Tip 40 grains. I use fine as dust H 110 powder. I hardlt shoot my .223 Rem anymore as the Hornet is perfect for my under 150 yard varmit shooting.

StrawHat · « **Reply #19 on:** November 18, 2011, 01:07:35 AM »

Quote from: gr8ful on October 04, 2011, 03:37:15 PM

... Relying on a powder dispencer for accuracy is just bad practice, ...

To the best of my knowledge, all the major companies and nearly all of my acquaintances use a volume measure to throw accurate charges. When I was loading for competitive shooting, I would have not been able to keep up if I had to weigh each charge. If you can not consistantly hit a number, perhaps you need better equipment.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #20 on:** November 18, 2011, 10:44:57 AM »

I may not be the guy to talk you out of a 22 Hornet 1885. That said, I'll throw a couple of other options on the table.

First; since you aren't going to reload and you want close range varminting and don't want an excessively heavy gun, have you considered magnum rimfire? For low noise, light weight varminting the 17HMR is really exceptional. Accurate round with surprising terminal performance. The 17 has a similar trajectory to the Hornet, it's just a smaller projo. It's also a bit more economical then the 22 Hornet. Of course the now classic 22WinMag hits a little harder but drops more. At 75 yards, that's not much of an issue.

There are some nice choices in those chamberings. If you want a traditional single shot, Savage still makes a modern version of their old Favorite. It's good looking, lean and light, and not all that expensive. Bolt actions are available from too many to list. Whoever makes a bolt gun you like probably has in in 22Mag and 17HMR.

Point is, the Hornet has historicaly been the go-to round for light varmint guns where noise is an issue and distance isn't but it's not the only way to go. There are other good options and the rimfire magnums are worth looking into.

Ladobe · « **Reply #21 on:** November 19, 2011, 05:04:46 AM »

I always get a kick out of the .223 vs .224 bore "issue" so many folks get off on. If that's their experience so be it and their choice. But in my long experience with the 22 Hornet it doesn't make a tinkers damn, including in the Browning 1885 Low Wall Hornet. All I shot in mine was .224 bullets, mostly 33gr Hornady/Remington V-Max, Hornady 45gr Hornet and 46gr Winchester OPE's. It shot ALL of them very well and almost all were shot on from very small varmints to predators (not just to 75 yards but to 250+). Same with my 1949 BRNO ZKW 465 22 Hornet, supposedly another .223 bore rifle. I never shot any factory ammo in either of them though, and all my handloads were tuned to the rifles. There are ways to make 22 Hornet ammo more consistant on paper, but by just using good reloading equipment and technique I never felt I needed them to get ammo that was minute of small varmint in any of the 22 Hornets I've owned (and I've owned a bunch of them in the last 50 odd years).
FWIW - YMMV

BruceP · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2011, 07:43:54 AM »

Not meaning to hijack this thread but have a question.
Ladobe have you noticed any consistant increased pressures with your loads in the .223 bores with .224 bullets compaired to load manuals.
Lower max loads, same velocities with low powder charges ao anything like that.
I ask because I have only shot .224 bullets in my Browning Low Wall but have not really worked on loads for it. I was just wondering if I should be looking for anything like that.

Bruce

Ladobe · « **Reply #23 on:** November 19, 2011, 01:25:50 PM »

Bruce,

I can't really answer your specific question. I rarely shot through my chronograph, almost never even while doing load development, so can't quote velocities. I'm not a speed freak... its all about accuracy to me. I also have no comparison between .223 and .224 bullets in the Hornets because I never bothered with .223 bullets in any of them I loaded for. I never relied on load manuals either beyond a starting load range for a new to me cartridge, and found my own loads from there on my own. So where my loads fell in a manual I have no idea other than somewhere below max for a given bullet weight and powder.

Having been a reloader since the late 50's, I instead relied on old school pressure signs on everything I reloaded. Best information there is for each firearm and load IMO, not book numbers. I'd go up until I lost accuracy and saw the beginning of pressure, then go back to the last accuracy load. So I rarely shot max loads in anything, especially not in weak cases like the Hornet. As a P&V hunter I'd much rather hit small than a little harder. With the Hornets (both the 22's and 17's) my brass lasted "forever". Only exception in the 22 Hornet was when I decided to see just how fast I could drive the 33gr H/R bullets. I worked up until I got pressure signs then, but I don't remember at what velocity.

lakota · « **Reply #24 on:** November 19, 2011, 01:58:18 PM »

I was reading this thread because I had a Ruger 77/22Hornet VHZ. It is one of the "why did I get rid of it???" guns for me. I got seduced by 4000 FPS velocities of the .204 Ruger and traded my hornet. My personal opinion of the .204 is that it stinks. I got into a rough spot and had to sell my .204 so now I have niether

. The only think I miss about the .204 is the Leupold 6-24X scope I had on it. That scope sure would have looked nice on another Hornet!

If you guys that are hand loading it are getting crummy results you really should try Hodgdon Lil' Gun powder. I got lucky it was the first powder I tried when I bought mine. Its been over 5 years but I believe my charge was 12.5 grains(check your load manual!) with a 35 grain v max. That gun was accurate. I consistently got 1/2" moa 3 shot groups with that gun I even got a sub 1/4" moa 3 shot group once. I shot a woodchuck which I paced off at 250 steps once my stride being roughly 2.5 feet I figured that shot might be close to 160 yards.

Not wanting to leave well enough alone I decided to experiment with other hornet powders like H110, 2400, H4427 and it was like a different gun printing 1.5-2" moa. Needless to say I saved those powders for my revolvers and went back to Lil' Gun.

Try that Lil' Gun. In my mind it is the Hornet powder!

When I get straightened out money and career wise there are 4 things on my wish list- first is a smoothbore flintlock

second is another Hornet and a pound of Lil' Gun and a box of 35 gr Vmax bullets.

OK hunter · « **Reply #25 on:** November 20, 2011, 06:07:08 AM »

Lakota, do you recall what primers you used? Many loaders use small pistol primers.

In the "for what it's worth" category, I picked up a beautiful 1885 Low Wall Browning last week. I can't wait to get it outside.

ironglow · « **Reply #26 on:** November 20, 2011, 06:37:02 AM »

The Hornet is a sweet round..I have one now and have owned several over the years. If you don't reload, it can get expensive however. Considering initial cost and shorter caselife, .223s are much less expensive.
Since the .223 is out..look again at a .22 Mag, especially since you are limiting yourself to 75 yards. New coyote rounds have been developed which are midway between solids and hollow points in their rate of mushroom.
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0022

lakota · « **Reply #27 on:** November 20, 2011, 05:01:27 PM »

Quote from: OK hunter on November 20, 2011, 06:07:08 AM

Lakota, do you recall what primers you used? Many loaders use small pistol primers.

In the "for what it's worth" category, I picked up a beautiful 1885 Low Wall Browning last week. I can't wait to get it outside.

I used Winchester standard and magnum small pistol primers. Didnt seem to make a difference if it was a magnum or standard. I did try small rifle primers a few times and the groups opened up a bit. My gun definatley liked the pistol primers best. I never tried Remington pistol primers. For some reason Remington pistol primers have always been scarce in the stores where I buy components

Another cool thing about the Hornet was that I would load it down with an IMR powder-(I cant remember which one) with a 40 grain flat point bullet(cant remember what bullet?) and small game hunt with it. It behaved just like a .22 long rifle. It was cool hunting squirels with a Hornet and not destroying them in the process. I will dig through my records and see if I can find the small game load for you.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #28 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:48:44 AM »

I'm with Ironglow, for sure. The Hornet is great for loaders. If you are buying it at full retail every time, it's not so great. The new varieties of rimfire magnums will do what you want for less money. Honestly, the middle ground between rimfire magnum and .223 isn't worth the price.

StrawHat · « **Reply #29 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:56:45 AM »

Quote from: lakota on November 20, 2011, 05:01:27 PM

...Another cool thing about the Hornet was that I would load it down with an IMR powder-(I cant remember which one) with a 40 grain flat point bullet(cant remember what bullet?) and small game hunt with it. It behaved just like a .22 long rifle. It was cool hunting squirels with a Hornet and not destroying them in the process. I will dig through my records and see if I can find the small game load for you...

That would be interesting information. I load for the 22 WCF (think black powder 22 Hornet) and that load would be useful.