Author Topic: FTF on lightened trigger (Read 1222 times)

Slackdaddy · « **on:** September 28, 2011, 11:40:23 AM »

Started a new thread on just the FTF problem with my USH

The trigger was lightened my the dealer/smith I purchased the gun from.
I just pulled the barrel and dry fired as I would shooting the gun, and held the trigger (to keep the pin in the fire position)
The pin is not protruding at all.
I dry fired jerking the trigger hard and fast, and the pin sticks out (we'll call this completely sticking out)
I dry fired faster than a usual rifle shot and the pin was sticking out about 1/2 way (compared to completely)
I am able to consistantly get these results.

So I have a 200 yard 20ga rifle I have to jerk like a trap gun?

Is there anyway to modify the drop time of the transfer bar, so it stays up longer??

Many thanks,
Nick

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2011, 01:53:32 PM »

Yup, too light a trigger will cause the t-bar to drop before the hammer falls, try following thru with the trigger pull, make sure it goes all the way to the rear each time you pull it, if you stop pulling or let off on it, it won't fire, but it sounds like it's beyond that. Replacing the trigger extension may help, you may be able to increase the length of the extension by peening the sides of the upper end to make it a bit longer before you order a new one from Brownells or Numrich.

Tim

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2011, 03:09:29 PM »

Thanks Tim,
I have dry fired about 30 times,, there is no way to be fast enough on the trigger to beat the hammer, unless you jerk it back,, and that defeats the whole reason for a 3# trigger

Read the FAQ about the fella that peened the extension,, so this is the part that holds the T-bar up?
So are the extensions from Brownells or Numrich any longer ?? or order a "hand full" and sort through them?
I have not found a good diagram of the H&R trigger mech online.
I think I will have to disassemble another H&R and "rebuild" it on pins drilled into a block, so I can see it function in the open, before I start modding the USH trigger.

I would like the T-bar to stay fully up from the moment of "break".
Odd setup that the trigger breaks (hammer falls) BEFORE the point the trigger holds the T-bar up,, at that point it is almost a "race"

Thanks,
Slack

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:30:05 AM »

H&R fits the trigger extension, you'll find it's probably been ground a bit shorter than a new one.

Tim

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=18150/pid=7119/Product/S01221-TRIGGER-EXTENSION

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=280780C&catid=3624

gcrank1 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2011, 06:32:44 AM »

You cant jerk the trigger fast enough to beat the T-bar falling. Sounds like you may have one of the bad T-bars (the top piece is too short and gets pinched out like a wet watermellon seed between the hammer and F-pin. On a 'marginal. T-bar the lengthened Trigger Extension may help, it did on mine, but the real cure was it and the new style T-bar.
Dont modify the factory trigger, it isnt the problem.
Think this trough: The hammer breaks and falls, ideally the Trigger Extension is 'almost' completely in place holding the T-bar, your trigger finger pressure continues the trigger follow through which does seat the Trigger Ext. fully holding the T-bar up, the hammer hits it and gun goes off.
BTW, The F-pin has an accepted 'protrusion' tolerance, and is measured with the T-bar in place, hammer down and held forward with a little thumb pressure.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2011, 12:56:25 PM »

Gcrank1,
Thanks,
Looking on GPC http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=13735
I only see one t-bar part (#21), how does one tell if its a old one or new and improved?

Thanks
Slack

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2011, 01:23:02 PM »

Gcrank1,
played with it some more taking into acount what you said.
If I jerk the trigger back, the pin stays fully protruded (the t-bar is all the way up with the hammer resting on it)
If I squeeze the trigger at a moderate speed, the pin does "bounce" out, but the t-bar ends up about 1/2 way down (I hear it drop when I release the trigger)
As I am seeing the firing pin bounce out, the t-bar has to be "most" of the way up when the hammer strikes, but is maybe "squeezed" down as it is only engaging the lower chamfer portion of the firing pin. If I jerk the trigger to fire, there is enough force to push the t-bar up there??
Also noticed the whole inards are oil soaked,, could be a problem ?? That was me - Mr. Remoil and WD40

gcrank1 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2011, 02:14:46 PM »

The T-bar has a chamfer on the top and the F-pin has a rounded edge, If the trigger ext. is a tad too short, or that top piece of the T-bar is the older (and I think a little shorter on top), or a combination of the two, it gets squeezed out and drops. Sometimes it hits the primer,but not hard enough before falling and you get FTF.
You could send it in.
You could order a T-bar from H&R (I have no idea where anybody else gets their stock, or if they work).
You could weld the top of the T-bar to be a bit taller and file it nicely to shape (I think this would cure it) and it is an inexpensive replacement part so worst case is buy a new one.
It just has to stay high enough through hammer impact to impart the blow to the F-pin, and fall free to provide its intended safety feature.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2011, 02:27:43 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on September 29, 2011, 02:14:46 PM

You could order a T-bar from H&R (I have no idea where anybody else gets their stock, or if they work).

The t-bar(striker) is a factory fitted only part(see owner's manual), so ordering one from H&R is not an option, if you want one from H&R, the only option is to send it in to be repaired by them.

That may be the best option to get it fixed, a light trigger and one that will fire reliably, they'll replace what they need to, just be sure to ask them to lighten the trigger as light as they can which is around 3½lbs.

Tim

http://www.hr1871.com/documents/manuals/new/Ultra-Slug-Hunter.pdf

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2011, 06:06:14 PM »

Ordered parts from GPC they had a "replacement" T-bar?
Anyhow while waiting I noticed something odd, I have the USH and 2 sidekicks.
when cocked, the t-bar on the sidekicks comes about 1/8" obove the top of the firing pin, on the USH the top of the t-bar is about 1/16" below the top of the pin, see pics
is there that much slop in the manufacture of the parts?

Sidekick1

Sidekick2

USH

gcrank1 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2011, 06:40:19 PM »

Good pics!
This is what Im talking about when I addressed the Lifter/Striker (T-bar) being either held high enough by the Trigger Extension, and/or the Striker portion of the assembly being 'too short' and with too much chamfer where it contacts the Firing Pin.
You can easily see now what I meant by the 'watermelon seed' squeeze out of the Striker when the hammer hits it and driving the assembly under the F-pin, resulting in light strikes/FTF.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2011, 07:15:35 PM »

If you look on Numrich Site at the t-bars, my 2 sidekick t-bars look like what they call "Original" and the USH t-bar looks like what they call "replacement"
Hmmm? When did they change over ? the original has the 45e'ed back and appears longer.
anyone else have the "rounded" top t-bar on their gun, as opposed to the 45'ed back ones ?
Wonder if the "replacement" is even an H&R part ?? maybe my smith screwed it up and put the "replacement" in ??

gcrank1 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 01, 2011, 04:38:22 AM »

I have 'heard' that the T-bar currently in use at H&R is the old style.
If anyone has info to the contrary please let us know.
Let your eye and experience tell you which one to choose, as far as I know they both fit inside.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #13 on:** October 01, 2011, 04:45:52 AM »

Is this deja voo?? didn't we just go thru this with a action you had a smith do trigger work on??

So this is another one??

I'm lost here, I thought we had a solution...

CW

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2011, 05:19:47 AM »

No same gun,, more I examine it,, looks like someone put an aftermarket Striker/lifter assem in there.
Headed out to local gun shop to see what "other" factory USH have for strikers.
The striker on my USH is just to short, no way around it.
Thought I was doing right letting a "pro" do the work?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2011, 05:38:53 AM »

The last one looks like a new style unit to me.

Let me go look at some of mine.. I don't have many "new" units. But I'll look for you anyhow...

You DID do right going to a profesional. HE is the one who may have made the errors, not you.

CW

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2011, 05:54:16 AM »

OK I looked at 6-7 pieces and all mine had beveled transfer bars, much like your first two pics. MOST where level with top of the firing pin, two where just above it.

I'll try to check more later, when I open and get in the back of the safe. None of the ones I checked where that "new", 2006 was newest.

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2011, 06:30:30 AM »

IIRC, the factory had a rash of FTF with their 'new, improved' T-bar, they went back to the 'original'.
You now know what the right working T-bar looks like.
I suspect the one in the USH is the factory installed one and the smith never messed with it (no need to when doing a trigger job).
Thanx for the pics which visually explain what I tried to do with soooo many words in my epistle to the faithful.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2011, 09:47:51 AM »

Just checked 3 new USH in a local gun shop,, all had the "beveled back" striker bar like my 2 Sidekicks, and all were slightly above the top of the pin.
I think it's safe to say the striker bar is the culprit in my case. I just need to get ahold of an original striker assembly.

Slack

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** October 01, 2011, 02:03:56 PM »

I have several t-bars, I checked for differences, some are the replacement from Numrich and look just like the others I have except for a couple, one spare and those in a CAC SB1 and a CBA SB2 frame, they're like the bottom one in the pic the top striker part is noticeably shorter as well as shaped different, top is very block like compared to the tapered top of the others. I can send you one of the older style if you want it.

Tim

cwlongshot · « **Reply #20 on:** October 01, 2011, 02:41:30 PM »

Good show Tim!!

Well I also checked about a dozen more and all accept one where beveled like your first two pics. One was like the last pic, but mine appears a bit higher. Its sitting just above the FP. Ironically, Its on my USH 20 Ga and IIRC its a 2009 model. This gun has a Wolfe spring in it and altho I have not fired it that much I have not had a FTF with it.

I also have a couple dis-connector, new units both are beveled.

One last thing, Its easy to assume this part of the problem. (and it very well could be) but calling it the problem just cause its different, was how many a "problem" thru history was started!! LOL Now you have an option with Tim's part. Install it and see what you get! I hope it works for you!

CW

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 01, 2011, 02:51:44 PM »

FWIW, I know, without a doubt, that it was the problem on mine, and my experiments with lengthening the Trigger Ext. were to try to compensate, which it did to an extent.
I also know it is often a mistake to assume that someone else's problem is the same as mine, but I think the evidence in this case points to the same conclusion. I could be wrong.....
Please install a T-bar that looks like the top two pics and try it out and report back. The proof is in the shooting

.

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #22 on:** November 10, 2011, 12:42:34 PM »

Work, kids and life got in the way for a few weeks.
Anyhow, many thanks to Tim for sending me an "original" transfer bar assembly.
This T-bar was noticably longer than what came in the USH. and was exactly like the ones in my 2 sidekicks,, While the one in the USH was like the "replacement" I ordered from "gunparts".
Anyhow, Installed the new T-bar and now the firing pin appears to be working properly, no matter how lightly I pull the trigger.
I then did a trigger job and screwed up and got the trigger pull at 1.75lbs,, and was having pin problems,, luckly I had a new trigger/sear and started over.
My hammer was fine, the trigger did not seam to be going anywhere after honing/re-assembling it 3 times, so I got a little heavy on the honing and "boom" under 2 lbs. with the new trigger once I got under 4 lbs, I re-assembled over 10 time to get to 2.75lbs.

off to the range tomorrow

Slackdaddy · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2011, 01:58:39 PM »

Update,
After putting in an "original" transfer bar (thanks Tim), everything worked as it should, I did some work on the trigger and got it down to 1.75# (opps), once again I was getting problems with the pin not extending as it should, rebuilt with new trigger and took it down slowley, stopped at 2.5#,
20 rounds through the gun at the range - no miss fires, no stuck shells.
Took a deer at 120 yards opening day, loving this gun

Btw, I am using Federal "sabot slugs" gun loves them, and I love them at 5.97 a box. (bought 20 boxes)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2FEF203SS2-1.html
(they have the wrong picture, they are a true all lead hollow point sabot slug)

Slack

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** December 04, 2011, 04:42:45 AM »

Congrats, thanks for the update!

Tim