Author Topic: So my muzzle loader of a different flavor! (Read 6044 times)

tacklebury · « **on:** September 29, 2011, 03:08:01 PM »

I've been itching for some time to do this and finally got all my ducks in a row and have succeeded. Bear with me as it's a bit long and I'll try to detail a bit. As an introduction, I've been wanting to make a .22 caliber muzzle loader, but at the same time, I really thought why make a new gun just for this, there's got to be a way to make a .22 work for muzzle loading easily. As a platform for my project, I decided to use my Marlin 70P "Papoose" since it has an easy to access barrel end and breaks down into a nice case:

Big issue is that I still want to be able to use it with std. .22 LR ammo as well. So with a bit of research and testing I came up with the following tap:

Which is the correct tap size to directly tap the chamber of a .22 rimfire and small enough thread to avoid having brass extruding itself into the threads when shooting regular ammo. Here's the nipple:

Sorry, phone doesn't do well with the close-up, so later I'll try to take some better pics.

Anyway, I ran the tap into the chamber of the Papoose barrel about 3/8":

Once this was done, I made sure there were no burrs with a round file and then went out and shot up a clip of ammo... Good to go so far! No apparent effect on the ammunition extraction.

So now I thread in the nipple with a tiny bit of breechplug grease that I use on my Muzzle loaders:

Then I re-attach the barrel to the receiver of the Papoose:

Finally, I use my smallest Lee Dipper (.3cc) to measure out some Goex ffffg:

For ammo, I've picked up two things, first off round lead BB's made by Gamo, but they are too loose and roll out the bore, so I use thermal recept paper to create a wad. Once the balls are started, I rip off the tail and ram it down.

I have picked up some 30gr. NAA CBB style bullets too, but haven't had a chance to test with them yet:

So finally, I load up my brass cap dispenser with Remington #11 caps and step out on the back porch with the breech locked back in it's retaining divet:

Anyway, I am still working on the bolt release mechanism, but basically, It acts as the hammer and fires the cap. I have drilled a small hole in the retaining divet on the left of the frame and I'm making a spring clip, which can be snapped on when wanting to do the muzzle loading:

Rifle shot pretty close to POA, but it's a rainy day here and didn't have much time to set up paper and such. Will post back more when I can put some on paper too.

I was simply letting the bolt go manually today.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2011, 03:03:54 PM »

Interesting project. I like the dual role.
I made a conventional .22 ML a few years ago from a gov't sponsered M-16 bbl w/a torch cut chamber and a reject Chipmunk stock.
Thought I could use Daisy VL caseless ammo, and had I used a mule-ear lock it would have worked, so I shoot BP in it, usually w/crossman pellets and no patch.
I once executed a 620 lb. sow to make sausage and it dropped her like a rock.
First two shots are right on target. Third is in the ballpark, and the fourth just goes "away".
I've used NAA slugs too, but had to make a resizer to get them down the bbl. (.218 I think)
Keep us posted. It sounds like fun!

tacklebury · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2011, 11:47:29 AM »

Well, I got out to my Dad's today and shot it quite a bit more. Does really well. I haven't finished the thumb firing mechanism yet, so all these are still just manually holding open the bolt.

I had dad take some videos documenting it's firing etc. on my phone. He did ok and I got 3 usable ones anyway. hehe Not bad since he's almost 70 and hates techy stuff.

Below are links to the 3 You-Tube videos for you to watch if you want to see her in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJAwvttpWzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_A_M3TO9i0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In3CcM2hFTc

I also got picks of a couple of the groups I shot today on paper plates. I forgot to take my dirty bird targets along. 8(
First one here is at 15 yards using the .22 Round ball pellets and thermal receipt paper wad:

Second one is at 15 yards using the 30 gr. NAA CBB bullets:

The first three shots grouped right around the bullseye on this one, then the last two flew to the right and almost one holed. I'm thinking that the microgroove rifling liked these, but wanted to be cleaned after a 3-shot. The Round balls didn't seem to care how many I shot, but weren't too consistent in comparison.

So anyway, hope you guys enjoy watching and seeing this. I'm entering phase two of my testing with this concept, so hopefully, I'll have some more interesting stuff to report on this in the next few weeks.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2011, 02:57:04 AM »

Yeah, I like it.

How many shots per lb?

tacklebury · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2011, 04:00:57 PM »

Guessing about 3000 depending on loss from my sloppy dipping. lol I'm picking up one of those flintlock pan primers (2 actually) which dispense 3 or 4 gr. ffffg each time it's turned over. I figure that's going to aid me in getting all of it in the barrel instead of on the table, stuck in my tape, etc. lol

tacklebury · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2011, 01:03:18 PM »

I have one small request if anyone is interested. I'd like to proof this concept using a std. .22 cal rifle mold. I will in time buy some molds to try, but it'll be a while before this can become a reality. If anyone has some .22 molded bullets and would send me 10 or so, I can test each mold out see about groups and figure out which ones will stabilize with the microgroove rifling. Anyone who'd be willing to help shoot me a pm with the Mold maker and cherry number. That way I am not getting lots of duplicates. If we find some that work well, I'll be sure to post the data here too.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2011, 04:49:42 PM »

You might try dissecting some .22lr for different slugs. Colibri goes down to 20 gr. and up to 60 gr. I'm guessing most bullet molds for .22 will be for centerfire rifles.
It ought to be interesting the kind of performance you get with such a weight spread.

tacklebury · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2011, 05:19:49 PM »

Could do that also for different weights, but I'd really like to find a mold that would work also. Centerfire .22's are only .001 larger in dia. and if molded from pure or a fairly soft lead, I'm thinking it'd swage down easily and the microgroove likes a tight fit anyway.

I just don't know if the longer bullets will stabilize as I've heard of people having issues shooting Super Colibri's due to this. If no one is interested in finding out, I'll just try on my own later. Was given a bunch of pure lead recently and so might pick up a .22 mold when I order my Lee Real mold in a month or so.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #8 on:** October 11, 2011, 03:25:46 AM »

You might want to post a link to the Cast Bullet Forum about this. Some of those guys are real gurus but might miss this forum.

Quote

[/q I just don't know if the longer bullets will stabilize as I've heard of people having issues shooting Super Colibri's due to this.uote]

Those issues were due to the slow speed of the bullet, and the resulting slow RPM. They wouldn't have to be so slow in your ML. It ain't gonna be too quiet anyhow, as you've probably noticed. The combinations are many and varied and some might say its a reinvention of the wheel, but they are coming up with new wheels all the time, so why not?
You can even load hollow base airgun pellets backwards to shoot tomatoes at close range.
Or get a primer nipple from Dixie to shoot pellets w/o powder a-tall.

I'm curious about the bolt release. Can an external hook be used to hold the bolt open w/a lever to release it (like an arquebus)?

tacklebury · « **Reply #9 on:** October 11, 2011, 01:22:17 PM »

Thanks Cornbelt.

Got the VL ammo today and it does look like it has possibilities. I'll hopefully be able to get out to the range tomorrow night if the weather holds out for me.

I have this posted on Beartooth Bullets and Cast Boolits forums also. Guess so far, you're the only one who was really interested in the concept. Maybe some others will stumble across it.

tacklebury · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2011, 05:49:40 PM »

Well one quick update so far. Cornbelt a.k.a. Tim was kind enough to send me something I'd never heard of in the form of Daisy VL .22 caseless ammo. Apparently, this was used in a firearm Daisy designed in the 60's and fired .22 cal bullets without a case using compressed air heat to set off the charge. Kind of a neat concept. Anyway, the idea died and here's a picture of some of this now defunct ammo:

Tim apparently bought some mistakenly years ago and thought it might work in my .22 Marlin Muzzle loader and work it did! It worked perfectly with no misfires or other issues. Unfortunately, I still haven't finished my thumb release bolt spring, so I am still dropping the hammer, so to speak, in a manual manner and tonight I had only 20 or so minutes when I finally made it to the range and got set up. Thus, I have only one group that wasn't that stellar. The wind was about 25 mph today also, and kept spinning my target, so sometimes, the bullets were slicing into it at about 45 to 60 degrees. Ah well, I was still pretty happy to see how nicely they loaded and all. Thinking later, I might wet some ffffg powder with a water & dextrose binder and try making some little charges like this in a board with a dowel rod to push out the finished caseless round. Thanks so much for contributing to my research Tim, was a blast to shoot em. I will try the other pellets also at some point, but didn't have time today. 8( Anyway, here's the target from 25 yards:

Cornbelt · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2011, 08:11:07 AM »

Well, you have the bang part working. Be interesting to see how much tighter your group gets when you figure out a trigger.

My .22 ML will only set them off if I unscrew the drum, screw a nipple in it's place and tap it with a ball peen hammer -not exactly a squirrel killing strategy.

tacklebury · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2011, 04:13:25 PM »

Hehe. These were a LOT faster loading than measuring and dumping powder. I haven't purchased the Flintlock pan primer deals to test with yet, and that might level the playing field some for speed of loading. I think if you were to tap a normal .22 barrel in lieu of the airgun type barrel, these would muzzle load for you well.

Just remember the magical 1/4-32 tap size and ToTW has the nipples.

bilmac · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2011, 02:54:51 AM »

Have you got any idea of what kind of power you are getting yet. Might be kink of interesting to set various materials like wood blocks behind your targets as you shoot them.

tacklebury · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2011, 01:01:34 PM »

Based upon report and kick alone, I can say it's very close to .22 LR with one scoop. Two scoops is nearly .22 mag level and definitely louder. With 2 scoops it actually pops the cap off the nipple. hehe
**edit**
Once I can get the bolt release clip perfected, my buddy said I can shoot some over his chrony to get speeds. That combined with the grain should give us a fair idea on where they are hitting for the power spectrum. I don't want to risk shooting his chrony though, so cannot do it now. I think I may be buying some .22 cal centerfire 50 & 55 gr. leads and may try some of them also.

keith44 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2011, 04:41:00 AM »

Interesting project. A powder burning roundball BP rifle in .22 cal...

I have a couple of thoughts

Since this is a chambered barrel and you are using black powder, are you seating the projectile on the powder actually in the chamber?? seating fully and having the bullet pass back into the rifling from a smooth section might be part of the group size.

You say you are using 4F? (posted as FFFF) this is supposed to be a priming powder and not recommended as a main charge. Three F (FFF or 3F) should lower the pressures without sacraficing any velocity and may also tighten the groups. I'm thinking that between the release, and the cap not staying on the nipple the larger kernel of the 3F should help keep the cap on and keep pressures consistent.

Sounds like a blast though, Have fun!!!

tacklebury · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2011, 12:36:59 PM »

Hey Keith44, thanks for your thoughts.

I have some FFFg also, so will give that a try. The tail on the thermal receipt paper comes down the barrel first and should coild itself on top of the powder column was my thought. Perhaps I'll play with tail length also.

I think a lot of the group issues though are simply my trying to release with the thumb/finger. I have been a little side tracked on my .223 squirrel gun concept, so I haven't actually started on the spring clip. Plus I'm making rocket stoves due to another post I got into. lol Basically, too many projects.

This one isn't defunct though and will be definitely testing it some more. The reason I went with ffffg in the first place was a post on .22 BPCR by Johnboy in another forum.

His using black powder with good consistency made me think that it could be used as an alternative to .22 LR albeit they are cheap, if I weren't able to buy some and had bp and rb I could work it this way. Plus it's really been a blast in general.

keith44 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2011, 04:59:33 PM »

actually the concept isn't too far off of history, seems that some early .22lr rounds were loaded with black powder. The tail coil of the paper wad should be enough to keep the ball in the rifling (as you mention) my concern is load density. air spaces between powder charges and projectiles are dangerous, especially with an open bolt style gun like you have made. Please keep us posted on this, could be great fun!!

Cornbelt · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2011, 01:18:07 AM »

I've been thinking about your trigger. If I'm thinking right, the firing pin falls out of the bolt from the bottom when its stripped.
Would it be possible to change the trigger to one that fits the firing pin slot and hooks on the front of the bolt?

tacklebury · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2011, 03:09:59 PM »

I had looked at that possibility too Corn. I decided that the ability to quickly swap it back to .22 LR was too nice. I have a buddy with a milling machine though and we've been discussing making a separate drop in mechanism that would fit the same as the factory firing mechanism. That way, you just unscrew the 2 stock bolts and pull one pin out and drop in the other trigger group. Would take about 1 minute to convert it that way.

I'm still going to go forward with the spring clip idea too though, because it's so simple. I can just tuck that part and the nipple into the bag with the wrench and can convert it quickly.

Honestly, been pretty busy with deer seasons and ML season opened Saturday, so probably won't get back to this 'til January some time. lol

Cornbelt · « **Reply #20 on:** April 16, 2012, 03:33:15 PM »

Hey its spring! Any luck?

Couger · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2012, 08:16:38 AM »

Tacklebury,

Don't know if you have ever considered parting with or parting out your Papoose?
But if you do, I might be interested!

tacklebury · « **Reply #22 on:** April 18, 2012, 04:36:18 PM »

Hehe, sorry, but I'm a little attached to it.

Victor3 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2012, 11:37:43 PM »

Be careful when loading the VL ammo. I have a VL rifle and years ago did some research on the system. IIRC, the propellant was designed to be fairly sensitive to heat so it would ignite reliably. Pushing one down the barrel fast might create enough heat via friction to set it off (while your hand is on the rod). No telling if the ammo is even more sensitive today, now that it's decades old...

tacklebury · « **Reply #24 on:** April 19, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »

I didn't see any problem thank goodness when testing.

I shot a tube worth of them and had no issue. I'm back to BP now when I shoot it.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #25 on:** April 23, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »

I've had trouble getting it to go off at all, even primed w/BP. It will go w/a blast of hot air, or in an inline. It might be interesting how it might be made to "spontaneously" combust. Sounds like another project, tacklebury. Just keep us posted.

cpileri · « **Reply #26 on:** April 23, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »

Quote from: Cornbelt on October 02, 2011, 03:03:54 PM

had I used a mule-ear lock it would have worked, !

Sir,
what is a mule ear lock; i would like to try this as i have some thus-far-useless Voere ammo.

C-

Cornbelt · « **Reply #27 on:** April 24, 2012, 05:31:20 AM »

A "mule ear" is a side-slapper where the nipple is screwed into the bbl giving direct access to the main charge from the percussion cap. (To cock it, you pull it out away from the lock plate.) A drum requires the fire to make a 90 degree angle before it gets to the main charge.

You might be able to google it and get a picture of one.

Cornbelt · « **Reply #28 on:** June 13, 2013, 07:16:23 AM »

Well, now that .22 ammo prices have gone through the roof, you might want to resurrect this project.
With the fly in the ointment being bolt release, it is good news that a bolt release comes standard on Marlins nowdays. Its just another improvement to the basic design, so everything else is still the same. Looks like they had you in mind when they came out with it.
It is even right there handy to your trigger finger. All you need to do is add one.

Keep us posted.

geezerbiker · « **Reply #29 on:** June 13, 2013, 11:00:00 PM »

I really like the idea. If I ever get around to doing similar, I think I'd go with a .303 Brit take off barrel so I could use buckshot for bullets. Well anyway it sounds like a good idea.

Tony