Primers trying to back out in my 30-30

[demented]

Hodgon recommended starting charge with LVR, CCI 200 LRP, once fired Winchester brass.  I noticed that all fired primers are pushed back approx. 1/32 of an inch.  What is going on here?   Same bullet, same primer, same brass loaded with a stiff charge of IMR 3031 does not do this.  Rifle is an SB2, Marlin manufactured

[LaOtto222]

I suspect that the pressure is so low that it is pushing the primer out. They should be well rounded with out any or very little flattening. This phenomena some times happens when the case is not stretched to fill the chamber and pushed the primer back into the case.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[cwlongshot]

Yup, the brass "sticks" to chamber walls, for ever so short a time, but Then releases. But before it does it slams against the breech. As pressure drops it releases. When lo pressure situations occur these kind of things can happen. The pressure is lo but primer is weaker than case so it gets pushed back, but case dosent. Or at least not enough to reseat it. In straight walled case, this is commonly accompanied by sooty cases, and for the Same reasons.

As mentioned can also be a sign of headspace issues.

Can also be loose primer pockets.

I'm guessing the first. But have you ever has these problems with this gun before?

[OldSchoolRanger]

What size (diameter), weight (grain),  & type bullet are you using? 
 
I never use the minimum recommended starting charge, always just a little higher.
 I would then recommend using different brass first, to check if the problem is loose primer pockets, because primers have slightly different height dimensions, and thickness.
 Make sure you are using the correct primer (rifle, instead of pistol).  I know you probably are just checking to make sure, because I've done it once.
 Also check the burn rate of the propellants you use, sometimes you just have to use the one that works best.
 If the problem still exists, try a little heavier charge, if you still have the same problem, then look for some other cause, such as cwlongshot mentioned. 
 Always try the easiest fixes first.  Don't try to over analyze it.  Good luck.

[billy_56081]

I would say low pressure also.

[demented]

I'm using Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tips, got 'em seated .010 off the lands.   LVR powder, 35 grains, velocity is 2290.  Fired primers are flattened but not excessively, look very much the same as factory fired.

[wncchester]

All primers back out of all loads, just as far back as the free headspace (chamber slop) allows; a normal pressure load simply pushes the cases back over them.  If you have 1/32" (31 thou) of free headspace you have a rifle problem there.

[cwlongshot]

I'm using Nosler 150 grain Ballistic Tips, got 'em seated .010 off the lands.   LVR powder, 35 grains, velocity is 2290.  Fired primers are flattened but not excessively, look very much the same as factory fired.

Well hearing this I am more assured its a lo pressure problem...
Handis are notoriously long throated. That 150 Nosler is a bit longer than reg 150g30-30  bullets. I'm sure your at or near minimal amount of bullet remaining in the case. (Watch out for this, I want at least .125 in the case and .250 is better.) What you have effectively done is to seat the bullet out far enough to increase the internal volume of the case. In doing so, you efectively reduced the pressures too lo to build enough pressure to re seat your primers...
 
CW

[anachronism]

Your load is too light for your particular configuration. The load needs to have high enough pressure to expand the brass case enough for it to grip the chamber, and that's not happening with your load, and the side effects mimic a headspace issue. Bump your load up a little bit and the problem should go away. Handi rifles also have somewhat oversized chambers, and you're losing just enough energy between the two potential issues to cause you problems.

[carbineman]

Hodgdon in their loading data does not recommend the bullet you are using with LE powder. Also does not recommend the primer you are using.  When I called about using LE in my 30-30 Toppers they reiterated this text they printed on their website;
 

<<<Hodgdon® Powder Company and Hornady® Manufacturing have teamed together to answer the frequently asked reloading question; "Can I buy the powder used in Hornady LEVERevolution factory ammunition?" Yes, this is the same spherical propellant used in Hornady's innovative and award winning high performance factory ammunition. This fabulous propellant meters flawlessly and makes lever action cartridges like the 30-30 Winchester yield velocities in excess of 100 fps over any published handloads, with even greater gains over factory ammunition. Other cartridges include the 35 Remington, 308 Marlin Express, 338 Marlin Express and the 25-35 Winchester. The list of cartridges and bullets is limited with this highly specialized powder, but where it works, it really works!>>> End of text.

I'm just thinking without using two of the components they recommend with this powder, there are too many variables that you cannot control. I have used this powder successfully with the Hodgdon recommended Sierra 170 grain FN bullet and noticed that the velocity increased 100 fps (to 2300+ fps) going from 36 grains of LE to 36.3 grains of LE. Accuracy was superb with most powder charge weights I tried. Maybe you could try some FTX or Sierra bullets with WW primers and see if results change.

[demented]

 How and why can Winchester primers and Sierra bullets change anything?   I can see if working on top end loads where a component change can cause excess pressure. 

[carbineman]

How and why can Winchester primers and Sierra bullets change anything?   I can see if working on top end loads where a component change can cause excess pressure.

I'm thinking that the Nosler bullet has different jacket hardness than the Sierra or FTX bullet has which can and does cause different pressures. Notice I didn't say excessive pressure. Like CW indicated you might be dealing with low pressure. My point is that you have too many variables to figure out what could be a problem with your 30-30 load.
 
With seating depth as we know it, the LE propellant might react differently with different bullets when seated. According to Hodgdon the load data they have developed, are for three bullets only. They told me in our phone conversation to use the specified components until if and when other data is developed.
 
Does other ammo function and fire in this firearm correctly? That could be the problem separate of the load you are using. If your IMR load is working well and you have tried LE with the same components and are having challenges using these components then something is wrong or maybe slightly incompatible with all the variables we run across as reloaders.
 
On something like LE which appears to have a narrow window of use, I would stick to the components listed. YMMV though and it seems to have done so.

[demented]

 Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.  I ordered some FTX bullets, found some primers, will start over and see what it does from there.  Again, thanks!

[gray wolf]

""If you have 1/32" (31 thou) of free head space you have a rifle problem there.""

I don't think I want to be in the same County that some one is shooting a rifle with .031 head space.  .004 thou. can be to much and lead to case separation, and if done repeatedly most times does.
  I would back up a bit and establish some parameters.
I would also get a head space gauge and make sure you are not pushing your shoulders back more that .002 when you re size your cases.
 When you fire the rifle the firing pin pushes the case foreword, the case is off the breach face and the primer backs out a bit, and then rebounds back against the breach face or bolt face. This action forces the primer back into the primer pocket and against the bolt face or breach face. According to the chamber pressure ( many things control chamber pressure ) You will see different amounts of flattened primers. Flat primers are not always a true indication of high pressure.
  Low chamber pressure can also allow a primer to stay popped out of the pocket.  Firing a case with no bullet or powder and just a primer will often show this. There is some good advise in some of the above post and some not.
Once you know head space has been eliminated from this equation you can look at other reasons for the popped out primers.
  Different components can and will react differently with the same load.
different bullets have different amounts of there bearing surface contacting the barrel, seating dept is also a concern.  That's why we start low and work up when load development is being done.
  There is a good chance your head space is OK but with out a gauge it's hard to tell, and harder with a case that comes to rest on it's case head rim in the chamber.

[wncchester]

Hornady: "The list of cartridges and bullets is limited with this highly specialized powder, but where it works, it really works!>>> End of text."
 
*   Generally speaking, what Horndy means is their powder is limited by cartridge and bullet weight, not so much bullet type or brand.  "Conventional web/magazine wisdom" aside, no commercial bullets are meaningfully harder than others, it simply wouldn't be wise for bullet makers to market any bullets that would materially increase pressures and those people are not fools.
 
*   Rifle and small, high intensity pistol cartridges respond to seating in a totally reversed manner.  For rifle cartridges, seating deeper (within reason) actually reduces chamber pressure while seating out, closer to the lands, increases it.   Letting a rifle bullet have a 'running start' at the lands allows it to keep moving from its own inertia while a rifle bullet starting at the lands demands a significantly higher pressure to force it into the bore. 
 
*  Military tests in the 1930s proved that by using standard military charges (and steel jacket bullets) in the .30-06; they found the highest pressures when seated well out, at the greatest possible internal volume.  Seating the same bullets deeper reduced the peak pressure (and speed) until the bullet was fully 1/4" deeper before the decrease in internal volume finally started to produce a slight pressure reversal.  Hornady's in-house experiments confirmed that effect with their own copper jacket rifle bullets in the 70s; it's well described and illustrated in their 3rd Edition loading manual (pg. 18).
 
*   Only ammo makers need be concerned with how a case headspaces, rimmed, rimless, bottle neck, or how it's measured.  What a reloader needs to do is size his bottle neck cases so the shoulder controls the headspace.  That way it really won't much matter what the actual chamber headspace may be.