Hardened frizzens on flintlocks, how long do they last?

[His lordship.]

I have never owned a flintlock muzzleloader, always thought they were interesting.  I have owned 4 muzzleloaders in percussion over the years, have one still.  A fellow on You Tube mentioned Middlesex Village Trading company has Indian (from India) made muzzleloaders cheaper and better made than the Italian ones.  I did shoot an Italian made replica of the French Charleville musket once, that is the only experience I have with the flinters, it did go bang when I pulled the trigger.  The Charleville's owner and another one of our gun club members who had a Brown Bess flintlock did admit that they rarely shoot their guns, once every few years at the most.
 
I am concerned about the longevity of the frizzen, this functions by being hammered/scrapped by the flint, what a way to wear out a metal part!    Granted that is how the technology was then, but just how long does that part last if hardened properly?  I have found ways on the internet of hardening them, and I imagine it was part of a blacksmith's job back in the day.  If done properly does a frizzen last 500 rounds, or much longer, or shorter?  There is reading on the cheaper flintlocks like Jukar wearing out fast, cheap guns. 
 
One of the members of my gun club who lives for muzzleloaders said he avoids flintlocks as they "rarely work right", his words. Still I think I might try one, they were used for hundreds of years, the state of Pennsylvania only allows flintlocks to be used for the muzzleloader deer season, the last I heard, seems they can't be terrible.  What has been your experience with them?  Anyone try the Indian made guns?
 
Thanks.

[keith44]

Great question!!
Let me start with I AM NOT BY ANY STRETCH AN EXPERT!!  Ok now that is out of the way this is my OPINION and limited experience:
 
I own 5 muzzleloaders currently, my newest is a .32 cal Flintlock built by Pedersoli.  I chose this brand based on a reputation for affordable quality (Italian built)  If I had to do over again I'd buy the same gun. I've had it for three years, actually used up 3 flints, and tried several more.  The wear rate of a frizzen is dependent on the part being properly hardened, having the flint strike the frizzen at the proper angle, and not having excessively heavy springs (main spring, and frizzen spring).  Well made, and properly fitted locks will last a very long time.  I have at least 300 rounds through my flinter and yes the frizzen is showing wear, but nothing that concerns me yet.  I am confident that now I know what I am doing with it I can get at least another 500 rounds through it before the frizzen needs attention.
 
All of that meticulous fitting and hardening must be done by hand still today.  That is why a good flintlock always costs more than an equal quality percussion gun.  Spend the extra money to get a known quality, and your experience with a flinter will be a great one.  Buy the cheapest you can find, and you'll never own another one.
 
Good luck, have fun, and enjoy the journey
 
Keith
 

[hillbill]

ive not gotten a flinter yet, its on the list. but id have to believe they are reliable to a certain point.if they were not,the indian tribes would of wiped us out before we got west of the great rivers.there is prob a learning curve with them just like a cap gun.ive read a lot of old accounts of mountain men not wanting to change to the cap rifles cuz they didnt think they would be reliable?
id expect in the old days yu carried a extra frizzen to install.

[Winter Hawk]

A frizzen should last for thousands of shots.  If you are going to try flintlocks, get a good one, not a cheapy.  Find a used T-C if you are on a budget.  If there are problems they should fix them under their lifetime warranty.  The frizzens are not hard to change out if needed.  If they get worn through the hardening, they can be rehardened with kasinite, or shoed with a piece of hacksaw blade. 

The Lyman GPR in flintlock is a fine rifle also.  I am currently using a Deer Creek rifle which came as a kit (it's the same as the old CVA Mountain Rifle).  I had to do some messing with the Spanish made lock but it is now very reliable, and ignition is faster than on the GPR I sold to finance it.  My first flinter was a T-C Pennsylvania Hunter and I sure wish I had never parted with it!  It was a real sweetheart to shoot with the half round barrel, and it was just as fast as a percussion rifle.

My two cents worth.  Be aware that once you get a rock lock, you will never go back to caps!

-Winter Hawk-

[keith44]

My two cents worth.  Be aware that once you get a rock lock, you will never go back to caps!

-Winter Hawk-

+1  I am now looking for a .54 ball shooting flinter, and trying to figure a way to finance it.
 
 

[flintlock]

I bought my first flintlock in 1977...I built my first in 1988, took me 2 years and 200 hours...I killed my first wild turkey with the first, it was a .45 caliber...With it, I killed deer, squirrels, turkeys, rabbits, foxes and whatever...It's all I used for hunting back in the late 70s and early 80s...
Never had a problem with that gun not going off when hunting...The only time I'd have a problem was at the range when I didn't take time to sharpen the flint between shots because it wasn't critical...
 
When I built my .54 in the late 80s, I rebarreled the .45 to 40 and have continued to use it for my small game hunting...
 
Now, this is what I think is critical...My guns were both custom made, the first by Bob Watts in Atlanta...He was written up in Foxfire V...The second by me, they both have Siler locks on them...A well made lock for a flintlock will cost as much as some bargain production guns, and it is worth every penny...
 
You will not live long enough to wear out a properly tempered frizzen on a Siler flintlock....Yet, you can buy a brand new, cheap production flintlock and find that "bargain gun" won't spark...
 
If all you can afford is a cheap gun made in India then you can't afford a flintlock, stick with percussion guns...
 
Folks like your friend simply don't know what they are talking about or have had a bad experience with a cheaply made gun...You touched on this: the flintlock was invented around 1600 in France, within just a couple of decades all the European countries had them...It was used to ignite gunpowder until the mid-1800s, longer than any other system including what we use today...
 
Finally, Daniel Boone, died in his sleep when he was 85 in 1820...Think about that, all he ever carried was a flintlock...Yet he made his living killing deer and selling their hides for much of his life...Must have been a pretty good system as deer herds by the mid-1800s were just about wiped out by this system...
 
A well built flintlock doesn't "hammer" the flint against the frizzen...The frizzen spring has only about 3 pounds of pressure holding the frizzen shut and flips over easily to scrape the flint over the steel to produce sparks...
 
If you do decide to buy a production flintlock at least buy one that you can remove the original lock from and replace with one of the well made locks available to the custom makers...
 
A well made flintlock is a thing of beauty and very reliable...A cheaply made flintlock that is imported isn't worth having...
 
Just some observations from a fellow that has been shooting these things for almost 35 years...

[hillbill]

those who know, well umm they just know!

[lakota]

My two cents worth.  Be aware that once you get a rock lock, you will never go back to caps!

-Winter Hawk-

+1  I am now looking for a .54 ball shooting flinter, and trying to figure a way to finance it.
 

+2! And your cartridge guns might see less use too. Mine sure have!

[P.A. Myers]

T/C flinters? Are they quality? Would they benefit from any 'tuneups'?

   P.A.

[lakota]

I dont have much experience with T/C flintlocks. I have read that they redesigned the hammer geometry some time ago to be easier on flints.From what I read it sounded like the old style hammer would beat up a flint pretty quick. Other than that I havent read any bad about their flintlocks.

[keith44]

T/C has a reputation of decent quality.  Their traditional product lines are "in the spirit of" guns rather than exact replicas.  That gives them alot of lee way with design changes to the guns.  As for tune ups all production guns could be improved upon by smoothing the trigger, cleaning out the packing and shipping grease and replacing that with quality lubricants, and usually better sights can be had from the after market

[coyotejoe]

Don't worry about wearing out a frizzen. Most American made frizzens are hardened all the way through and will continue to spark until worn all the way through and probably every other part of the lock will wear out first. Some imported locks have case hardened frizzens like the old original locks. These have just a thin skin of hardness on the surface and are dead soft in the middle. These will need to be rehardnened after a thousand rounds or so, one really can't say exactly because there are just too many variables. But it is a simple job which can be done in a camp fire. Some of those India guns may need the frizzen hardened before they will strike their first spark and they certainly will need some "tune-up" before they can be used satisfactorily.
Flintlocks are as reliable as the maker and the shooter. A "good" flintlock is a thing of joy, a cheap flintlock is a source of frustration. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for more than 50 years. I shot percussion and made all of the beginner mistakes. I tried flint several times, was frustrated and either sold the gun or converted it to percussion. Then I finally got a good flintlock, a Pedersoli Blue Ridge and have been shooting it for going on 20 years.
 A flint shooter has to be a bit more "persnickity". You have to pay attention to the details each and every time. Be sure the flint is sharp and properly positioned in the jaws. Be sure the frizzen is clean and dry. Be sure the vent is clear. Be sure the prime is dry and consistent. Pay attention to those details and, assuming a good lock to start with, it will be as reliable as a percussion and nearly as fast.
 In short, the successful flint shooter has to be a bit anal, if you are inclined to be a bit sloppy or slip shod, better stay with percussion.
 And if you aren't pretty handy with tools and have a pretty good shop don't consider an Indian gun, they will for sure need some work. You can get a good used T/C or Lyman rifle in any pawn shop which will be four times the gun for less than half the money. Unfortunately they don't make military muskets, only rifles.
 

[lakota]

Another good thing about T/C is the excellent warranty and customer service that comes with them. A few years ago I picked up a very worn and beat up flint lock Hwaken for $100. The lock was badly pitted and the frizzen spring was weak and barley kept the frizzen closed. I called T/C and asked if they would take a look at it and give me a price on restoring it. The guy told me to send it in. About a week later there was a brand new lock in my mail box free of charge. They take good care of their customers.
 
I only got to shoot that rifle a few times and then I had to sell it

[Winter Hawk]

Flintlock,

I think you are mixing up the flint with the frizzen in your post.  I have never had to sharpen the frizzen, but I do touch up the flint from time to time.  Not to flame you but to keep the confusion factor down.   

-Winter Hawk-

[flintlock]

Thanks Winter, my fingers sometimes go faster than my brain...
It's heck getting old...I've corrected, look better???

[His lordship.]

Thanks for all your reply's on this.  I did some further research, and as Coyotejoe said the Indian guns need work after buying them and you will need a place to work on em'.  Concerning the Indian guns, everybody on the other websites mentioned the wood had to be refinished, tinkering with the lock, roughly machined inside of the barrels that needed polishing, and some metallurgical issues on the barrels for strength.  The feeling was that you would be better off spending the money and getting a better gun the first time.


One fellow at my last gun club bought a cheap percussion muzzle loader plains rifle from Cabelas's bargain room and replaced the lock with a good one from Track of the Wolf, he did work on other areas of the gun too.  He had a good shooter when he was done, but initially paid so little for the plains rifle that it all worked out cost wise.  I will wait and buy a good quality gun, as I want something I can take to the range the moment I get it out of the shipping box, not a months long "hobby project".

[Winter Hawk]

Thanks Winter, my fingers sometimes go faster than my brain...
It's heck getting old...I've corrected, look better???

Ya did great!  I know what you mean about the fingers, the brain and the aging process.  I often find myself editing a message after it is posted because I see an error which wasn't there when I typed it...

-Kees-

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Chris,
 
Lot's of makers' will offer guns "in-the-white" which are basically all put together you just need to staind and finish the wood & polish/brown/blue the steel.  You'll only save $100 though. 
 
You literally could take them out and shoot them the day they arrived.
 
Or you could get on the phone and talk to the gun maker and as he learns what is important to you and what is not so important you can arrive at a gun that meets your needs and budget.
 
If you REALLY want to impress a gunmaker, tell him you want a gun with a top quality lock, barrel, and touch hole.  Tell him to omit the double set triggers, buttplate, sideplate, entry pipe, and nosecap.  Then tell him to make sure to elongate the pinholes for the barrel stakes.
 
He will immediately get the sense that you intend to shoot this gun lots, and you want it to be reliable and accurate in all sorts of weather and conditions. 

[longcaribiner]

TC makes a good gun, but their frizzens are case hardened and made from the wrong alloy.  If it wouldn't be for the warranty, their flinter reputation would be JUNK!

CVA Mountain Rifles in flint were darn good guns, but are no longer made.  Nearly all the parts are available from Deer Creek. 

Lyman flint rifles have a good reputation. 

I purchased two good used "custom" flint guns.  One is a North Star Trade gun.  It goes off, goes off fast and reliably.  The other is an unknown maker custom flint rifle with a Siler lock.  Same for it's ignition.   There are a few American lock makers who know extremely well what they are doing.   Chambers, L&R, Davis and a few others.  The frizzens are proper carbon alloy and properly hardened.       I have my North Star Trade gun (used remember) since 1989.  Many thousands of shots and the best, it doesn't eat flints.  I had a flint last for well over 400 shots.    Lock geometry is extremely important.  The flint edge needs to be brought down at an arc that is close to the arc of the frizzen face , but different enough to still force the frizzen open to expose the pan.    The Early TC flint lock would more bash into the frizzen than scrape down along it. 

Think about it.     Winchester, Savage, Stevens, Marlin, don't give life time warranties.  Many of their guns are 100 years old with no worn out broken parts.     (Parts do wear after a while)  But if you bought a Winchester and had to take it apart and send it back for 2 weeks every couple years, would YOU think that was a well made gun?  Heck no.

[Winter Hawk]

I had a T-C Pennsylvania Hunter which I bought new in 1991, which was a real sweetheart.  It did seem to go through flints pretty fast, though.  Accuracy was great, and with the half round barrel it wasn't muzzle heavy.  Ignition was almost on a par with percussion. I wish I still had it....

I have heard of folks replacing the T-C frizzen with one from Lyman, though I don't know if it is a drop in fit or if some filing is involved.

-WH-

[lakota]

I think you can get an L&R replacement lock for T/C guns. Then you will have an excellent lock that doesnt chew through flints.

[Rock Home Isle]

.........
I am concerned about the longevity of the frizzen, this functions by being hammered/scrapped by the flint, what a way to wear out a metal part!    Granted that is how the technology was then, but just how long does that part last if hardened properly?  I have found ways on the internet of hardening them, and I imagine it was part of a blacksmith's job back in the day.  If done properly does a frizzen last 500 rounds, or much longer, or shorter?  There is reading on the cheaper flintlocks like Jukar wearing out fast, cheap guns. 
 
One of the members of my gun club who lives for muzzleloaders said he avoids flintlocks as they "rarely work right", his words. Still I think I might try one, they were used for hundreds of years, the state of Pennsylvania only allows flintlocks to be used for the muzzleloader deer season, the last I heard, seems they can't be terrible.  What has been your experience with them?  Anyone try the Indian made guns?
 
Thanks.

I've been shooting Blackpowder for more years than I care to admitt in public. Most of my experience has been percussion. But I got my Dad hooked, and he went strait to Flintlocks. He owns several fine flinters and has only had rtrouble with one lock...he has had to re-harden the frizzen twice on that one gun. It is a cheap gun with a cheap lock...I don't even know why he still keeeps it around. 
 
As to myself, I've only recently been shooting flintlocks with regularity (for the last 10 to 12 years). My flintlock experience has been limited to 2 primary firearms. I have been shooting a TVM Southern Kentucky Poorboy (Large Siler Lock) and a Perdersoli Brown Bess Carbine. When I first got the Browm Bess, as a kit, I sent the lock back to Dixie Gun Works (where I bought the kit) because the fit of the lock was quite poor. Dixie did an awesome job when they reworked the lock and then they even rehardened the Frizzen. I have shot and hunted with this Bess Carbine for many years and have never had a problem with the lock. It has been an awesome gun to hunt with and learn how a Flitnlock works and what are the weaknesses of the flint shooting system.
 
The TVM gun is a semi-custom firearm and it has just been a dream to shoot. There is little to no delay when shooting and the Siler Lock is an outstanding quality component. I did have an accuracy issue with my gun, and contacted TVM to see if they had any suggestions. They wanted the gun back in the shop...I sent it back and they did a wonderful job in accurising this firearm. They even re-worked a few things that I didn't even notice. OMG!!! This TVM gun has become such a shooter.

I now have another gun on order from TVM...it should be ready for delivery to me this spring, and its a flintlock.

-aim small miss small-

[keith44]

Hey,  Rock Home Isle, does TVM have a website?? Last time I looked for them they did not, but it's been several years since I looked.

[Rock Home Isle]

Hey,  Rock Home Isle, does TVM have a website?? Last time I looked for them they did not, but it's been several years since I looked.

Here's the link to the home webpage. http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
 
For years my contact at TVM was Toni...She has the most incredable personality and in my opinion was a wonderful corporate asset to TVM. But health issues have required that she assume other duties.
 
These days you'll probably speak with Rod or Richard when you call the company. I drove to the Ft Bridger Rondy, in southwestern Wyoming, years ago when I ordered my Southern Kentucky & met with Richard personally to place my order. He is such a stellar individual....Their customer service is second to none.
 
The fit, finish, and the simple beautiful quality of my Southern Kentucky rifle is the primary reason that I now have another Flinter on order from TVM. I've ordered an Early Virginia Rifle with brass furniture and .62 calibre smoothbore (20 gauge). I upgraded the stock and added a set of sling swivels.
 
The hardest part of ordering a custom or semi-custom firearm is the required wait to hold that firearm and use it. 

[j two dogs]

My .62 made by Steve Zhin.
I shot it today as a matter of fact. Put two in the bullseye at 75 yds. about an inch apart. It always goes boom. I am definitley addicted to the rock lock. It is a hoot to shoot.