Author Topic: where to find loading data. (Read 1374 times)

ihookem · « **on:** October 05, 2011, 09:45:08 AM »

I have a problem here and you guys probably know what the answer is. I bought a 45-70 govt barrel from REVBC on Gray beard. I shot jacketed Rem. 300 gr. and 36gr IMR 4227 with fair success. But price was high, so I went down the road to Lee moulds and got me a 340 gr .457 mould. It casts .458 to .459. I lubed them with a very light coat of Lee alox too. The bullets were basically all over like 4" at 50 yds with the cast bullets. I used 28 gr. IMR 4227. The groups got a little worse and had two squib loads, just a quiet pop. The cast loads did not burn very clean, had lots of powder fall out of the case and lots of powder left in the barrel ( could have made accuracy worse) My question is where do I find online cast bullet loads for the 45-70 govt. from powder or bullet loading data? Can't find much anywhere. Also, is IMR 4227 a bad powder for cast loads? Thanks Steve.

ihookem · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2011, 10:29:13 AM »

OK, here is what I did. I got a bullet that didn't cast well the other day and hit the top with a hammer a bit. Then I took my muzzleloader rod and pushed the bullet down the barrel with it. The slugged bullet seems to be . 459. My cast bullets go .458 and some seem .459. Would I be better served if I go and get the .459 mould? Should I try the .457 bullets with a different powder?

Land_Owner · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2011, 11:40:33 AM »

You did GOOD slugging your barrel. Now you know it "wants" a bullet with at least .459" diameter. Maybe even a .460" so there is 0.001" overbore. Cast bullets are like that.

There is a wealth of 45-70 threads and loads on GBO. You just have to "mine" with the Search function a bit.

kbstenberg · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2011, 01:38:52 PM »

L.O. is 100% corect. Never go smaller with a cast bullet

ihookem · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2011, 05:40:34 PM »

Anyone know where I can find a .459 mold for 45-70 govt.? I can find a Lee but it's 500 gr. Awful lot of lead for a hole in paper 90% of the time. Can I get a custom mold somewhere?

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2011, 08:18:52 PM »

Buy the new Lyman Cast Bullet Loading Manual. It is recently updated and is THE authority on cast bullet load data.

mauserand9mm · « **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2011, 01:52:55 AM »

I agree, and even the Lyman reloading manual has a good listing of reduced loads with cast.

I would have though 4227 would have been okay with cast too but it sounds like the load may be too low. Magnum primers probably won't make a big difference either.

You could try Trailboss - that'll give you the cheapest shooting yet. The loads will be sub-sonic.

I use 20gns of Trailboss behind a 405gn cast lead in my 458WM for about 1000fps. 20gns almost fills the case by the way. This load shoots accurately and I've used it on rabbits. I've been told that this will also handle mid size game (eg pigs) but haven't tried it out on them yet.

Czech_too · « **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2011, 03:02:35 AM »

As previously mentioned, pick up a copy of the Lyman manual. As to a larger mould, you could enlarge the existing cavities by taking some of the bullets you have already cast, drill a hole partially thru them, take any type of screw, of the appropriate size, and screw it into the hole. You want something that you can chuck into a drill. Now take so sort of MILD abrasive and put this on the bullets. Put the screw into the drill chuck and SLOWLY turn the bullet in the mould, checking often. You don't want to take off to much material, it's not like you can put it back on.
Try this on one cavity and if you're pleased with the results, do the other.

ihookem · « **Reply #8 on:** October 09, 2011, 02:47:50 PM »

I called the tech at Lee Precision. I asked why so many .457 dia. He said the pressure should make it expand. I never heard that but it makes sense. I also asked why the .459 was hollow base cause I always thought that was a black powder mold. It should make it expand too but heard hollow base is no good for smokeless. We came to the conclusion I should use faster burning powder and put a thin piece of paper on the mold to make the bullet a few thousand of an inch bigger. Has anyone done that?

anachronism · « **Reply #9 on:** October 09, 2011, 03:26:47 PM »

What alloy are you using? It sounds like you would benefit from a higher antimony content, which will bump the bullet diameter slightly.

ihookem · « **Reply #10 on:** October 09, 2011, 03:47:45 PM »

I'm using pure lead.

Czech_too · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2011, 02:44:00 AM »

Rather than use a paper tape between the faces of the mould, use an adhesive backed aluminum tape. Google Leementing, or beagling, since that is what it's referred to, for more information.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2011, 08:38:30 AM »

ihookem

Pure lead is too soft an alloy for the powder charge of 4227 used. You need at least some tin in it at 20-1 lead tin mix.

You don't say if you are sizing? If you got the lee .457 sizer/lube kit then you are probably sizing the bullets too small. Leave them "as cast" and just lube them. You might want to use a medium coat of LLA also.

The powder you're using is wrong as it is very low loading denstiy at 28 gr for that weight bullet without a dacron filler. Suggest you switch powders to Trail Boss or Unique. I've found 10 -12 gr Unique with a 1 gr dacron filler works really well with such weight bullets as yours in the 45-70. 4227 is an excellent powder in the 45-70 with heavier bullets or GC'd bullets of 300 - 3585 gr when pushed to higher velocities and pressures. of course the bullets must be of the correct alloy, sized correctly and a filler used for best results. For a 350 gr plain based soft cast bullet at low velocities 4227 is a poor choice, as you've found.

A 45-70 barrel for what action? Rifle or handgun?

And....you really do need to get a Lyman's 3rd or 4th edition of their Cast Bullet hand Book, read it and study the informational/instructional part up front. The 3rd edition would be better and more informative for you.

Larry Gibson

ihookem · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2011, 11:26:12 AM »

Thanks Larry. I did find jacketed bullets work real well with IMR 4227. I'm not sizing the bullets. I'm just shooting as cast and still a little small. I never thought of the aluminum take and have some so I'll give it a try. I got the barrel off graybeard here and put it on my Encore rifle, it's 22". And yep, stopped in at Cabela's today but they didn't have the Lyman book for anything. I will change powders and try that first. Then I will try the aluminum tape idea. Just an observation about the 45-70. I have found powder as fast as Unique to Hodgdon 8700 for loading data. I honestly wonder if this caliber can be loaded with anything. Different caliber for sure.

anachronism · « **Reply #14 on:** October 10, 2011, 03:43:18 PM »

Save the pure lead for a muzzleloader, and try an actual proper bullet alloy. Pure lead cast cast bullets are undersized for the moulds capability. Buy something in the range of Lymans #2 alloy and you should see an improvement in "as cast" dimensions. The "tech" you talked with at LEE should have asked you this question first, when you called to complain about undersized bullets. He must not have had much experience casting bullets.Pure lead make smaller bullets.

Anduril · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2011, 10:14:18 AM »

If you can get some, try casting with wheel weights.
The added tin and antimony will increase the "as cast" diameter by .001" or so.
..

ihookem · « **Reply #16 on:** October 12, 2011, 11:58:20 AM »

I just might get some wheel weights. I shot a bunch of pure lead "as cast" over 14Gr. Unique. It shot all over the place. I need to do something, and don't know what it is. I thought Unique would cure my problems. Now I guess I get wheel weights or put on a piece of aluminum tape on the mold to make some bigger bullets. I'm not sold on the idea. It is out of round and might not hurt accuracy but won't help. The added .001 might work though. I'm sure my barrel is leaded up. Going to clean the barrel very well and open up the mold a bit. I will give it a little more Lee Alox too since I suspect leading is some of the problem. I was looking into paper patch bullets. This might be the cure all, getting rid of any leading, and wrapping the right size paper to get the diameter I want, and then getting more fps. for the effort. But then I will have to get a bullet sizer down to .452. I don't know if I can do that.

Nobade · « **Reply #17 on:** October 12, 2011, 05:12:53 PM »

hint....hint....45 Colt moulds are .452".

Lee makes a .452" push through sizer that has no problem taking a .459" bullet down to .452" especially if it is cast from straight lead.

You are right, paper patching will solve all your problems. Might take you a while to learn, but once you know the techniques you will be flat out amazed at what you can do with it. That Lee 340gr. bullet cast from straight lead at 2200 fps with MOA accuracy is not a problem if you can take the recoil.(assuming a strong rifle, that is. you didn't say what that barrel is for, but if it is an Encore it can do that. I wouldn't try it in a Contender.)

Talk to me if you are interested, I can help steer you down the path and save you a lot of grief.

ihookem · « **Reply #18 on:** October 12, 2011, 05:42:49 PM »

Thanks Nobade. It is a lot easier to learn from someone than to try to figurer it all out. I am looking into paper right now. # 9 onion skin or tracing paper, never heard of either. I need to figure out just what size to make the paper too. I never sized a bullet but can go back to Lee and ask a few questions and they should know what I need. They live 20 mi. from me. If You all say the paper bullet is all that I'll go for it. The day may come when copper is even more expensive and than can use my pure lead too. Yes, it's for an Encore. It's going to be my bear gun and back up deer rifle. If the paper patch thing works good It most likely will be my main rifle for everything. Very interesting cartridge. Powder from Unique to H 8700 , I don't think any other cartridge can do that.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2011, 01:42:34 AM »

give 22 grains of 2400 a try. I have to say though im surpised your getting quibs with that 4227 load. Check to make sure your primers are seated flush and make sure your dies are giving you good neck tension and your using a good enough crimp.. Ive shot that load and loads just like in with 4227 and havent ever had a quib. If you step up at all in velocity think about a harder alloy and even at that level a harder alloy is going to usually give better accuracy. Another thing is pure lead is worth more the wws and id hate to waste it anymore on smokeless loads. Im sure you could find someone to swap your for your pure.