Author Topic: Am I understanding this correctly, Herman Cain saying that states can ban guns  (Read 3541 times)

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Offline guzzijohn

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Offline subdjoe

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As it stands now, he is correct.  Within the almost framework laid down in the Heller and McDonald decisions, and now supported by the US Court of Appeals for Washington DC, states do have the right restrict firearms so long as there is not an outright ban.  So he is supporting the Constitution as it is currently interpreted.  He also seems to understand that the Constitution addresses only the federal government unless it specifically mentions the states.  That is why the Bill of Rights has had to be incorporated against the states. 

Do I like the current interpretation? No, I don't.  I take the view William Rawle expressed in "A View of the Constitution of the United States of America" (1829), which was adopted as a constitutional law textbook at West Point and other institutions. In Chapter 10 he describes the scope of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms:
The prohibition is general. No clause in the constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.  He seemed to take the view that "shall not be infringed" meant by any authority, and that if a state attempted it, citizens could appeal to the federal government against the state.
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Offline Empty Quiver

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I believe the States are supposed to regulate themselves. If a population of a state decide to regulate the speed on their hiways to 55 MPH it's their perogative to do so. If I find it offensive I don't go there or move away, as it does not reflect my beliefs. The U S Constitution is written to reflect the things the Federal Government is not to meddle with as it concerns States. Over the past two centuries that has changed to the few things the states are allowed to do on their own. Not what the framers invisioned I believe.
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Offline jimster

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I think he is right.  The good news is that states can be run by the people through votes easier than the fed government can.  So really,  whatever the states decide to regulate is up to the people.  Michigan for example was typically anti gun for a number of years, (some counties) the people changed all that, legislation changed, now we have the ability to carry, and the right to self defense with a self defense law in place (some call it kind of a castle law)...so all this happened through the people and by kicking out anti gunners over a period of years. I think there are some limitations as far as "banning guns"...but regulating things a state can do.  Bottom line is it's up to the people in any state to get things changed, it's a little bit of work if your already anti gun, but it can be done.  So Cain is right, he seems to be on top of this one.  According to the article posted, the NRA is wrong, but they are more political than anything else. I think we are all better off with states in control of regulation.  Some states will always be pro gun, some will not, but it's up to the people.  You also have other things in play...a states constitution might over ride regulation in a court of law, for example, Michigan's constitution gave the people the right to bear arms for "personal defense"...so even though our state used to be anti gun (some counties), people won the right to carry in a court of law many times when they challenged it.  So many times that the county gun boards did not bother to go to court...they just issued the permit before the court date, they knew they would lose.  We had some counties that gave cpl's and some did not...someone it seems also won a discrimination ruling as this is a state permit, not a county one.  It took some fighting in some of our counties, in the end...the entire state had to conform to the people and the current constitution of our state. 

Offline NWBear

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As I understand the Constitution; the "Bill of Rights" and the rest of the Constituion for that matter is the "Supreme Law of the Land".  Therefore the States have the right to regulate anything which is not directly addressed in the document as being "shall be" or "shall not be" (this is the 10th amendment).  Otherwise the states could choose to prohibit Women from voting in State elections or sieze property illegally.
 
   

Offline ironglow

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  Nice try at "spin" Guzzi !  First Cain says TWICE that he believes in the 2nd amendment.  When he says states should have some latitude, I take it he meant they should have latitude within the confines of the second amendment..
   Just look at the name of the publication you took this article from..  "THINK PROGRESS"      Uh..huh we KNOW how "progressives" think.  Very interesting; a long interview and we are shown a 33 second clip..which cuts away BEFORE Cain is anywhere near finished with his explanation of his views on 'gun control'.  Why does the video clip end abruptly ..right there ?
 
   They try to trash Cain by pulling down a statement they can extrapolate upon.. 
 
     Guzzi...  This is a gun-owner's forum..do you suppose you might find some interview where some liberal hinted toward gun control ?  Don't try to spin that though; we all know how the liberal/progressives look at guns..  After all, we already know how BHO feels about "bitter clingers"..
 
   BTW.. Just FYI;
  Herman appeared at the NRA national convention  where he was chilled, grilled and allowed to address the convention;
   and they loved him and his stance on guns..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1tBs56NLzc
 
         Guess that puts the lie to that "progressive" publication...
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Offline nw_hunter

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  Nice try at "spin" Guzzi !  First Cain says TWICE that he believes in the 2nd amendment.  When he says states should have some latitude, I take it he meant they should have latitude within the confines of the second amendment..
   Just look at the name of the publication you took this article from..  "THINK PROGRESS"      Uh..huh we KNOW how "progressives" think.  Very interesting; a long interview and we are shown a 33 second clip..which cuts away BEFORE Cain is anywhere near finished with his explanation of his views on 'gun control'.  Why does the video clip end abruptly ..right there ?
 
   They try to trash Cain by pulling down a statement they can extrapolate upon.. 
 
     Guzzi...  This is a gun-owner's forum..do you suppose you might find some interview where some liberal hinted toward gun control ?  Don't try to spin that though; we all know how the liberal/progressives look at guns..  After all, we already know how BHO feels about "bitter clingers"..
 
   BTW.. Just FYI;
  Herman appeared at the NRA national convention  where he was chilled, grilled and allowed to address the convention;
   and they loved him and his stance on guns..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1tBs56NLzc
 
         Guess that puts the lie to that "progressive" publication...



Actually! If you listen to the interview with old Wolfe B., He did say it. Listen to the interview!
I think Cain is probably a good man, but he is not qualified to run the country.Paul would not have been tricked by the question presented to him by the Liberal Wolfe. He (is) qualified and we are being tricked by all the liberal press to believe any of the other candidates are better qualified or deserving of the office.

And that is NO spin :)

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/06/10/242793/anti-gun-herman-cain/
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Offline guzzijohn

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Quote from Ironglow:
    Guzzi...  This is a gun-owner's forum..do you suppose you might find some interview where some liberal hinted toward gun control ?  Don't try to spin that though; we all know how the liberal/progressives look at guns.
Quote


I was not trying to spin anything. I ran across what I posted. I asked forum members if they had heard anything about this as I was very surprised if that is all that Cain meant. At least other posters just posted information which was helpful without having to accuse me of putting a "spin" on it or intentionally trying to post misinformation.
GuzziJohn

Offline subdjoe

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"Regulate" is not the same as "ban."  So, by your choice of thread title, you applied spin. 

Mr. Cain said he supports the 2nd Amendment.  He also said that he supports, as is the law of the land now, the ability of the several states to regulate firearms. 

In effect, Mr. Cain was saying that he supports the Constitution as it is now interpreted by the US Supreme Court.
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Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline jimster

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Regulation could also mean the state requires you to have a gun in the home.  I think somewhere in the U.S. there is a place with something like this on the books. Kennesaw Georgia?  There is another twist to regulation, it does not have to be anti gun, it could be mandatory to have to have one in the home as well. 
 

Offline ironglow

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    Check with the thousands who attended the NRA convention..   I think there is little doubt that Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich, or any of the Republican candidates are miles ahead of Obama, Clinton or any leading Democrat candidate , when it comes to  protecting gun rights... so that little out-of-context video of 33 seconds is a "non-starter"...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nw_hunter

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I'm getting a little tired of deleting these flaming responses to the post.
Discuss the subject matter.................Not the poster of the thread.
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Offline ironglow

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Look at that video again..
 
  TWICE..Herman Cain says; "I support the second amendment"!...
 
 The second amendment says: 
           " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right or the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".
 
         Yes, toward the end of the video he said something  like "that should be a state's decision".. At this point the video is abruptlt terminated, so we don't know what he said after that !  He could have said   "final authority ends with each state'   OR HE COULD HAVE SAID, " but then, the states will have to operate within the confines of the 2nd amendment"
  We don't know however, because that "progressive" publication chose to cut the video right there !  Don't we wonder why ?
   Just look at that website which was cited.. It trashes Perry, Boehner, Cain and any conservative they can hit..Should we believe ANYTHING they claim ?
 
      Considering that Cain affirmed TWO TIMES that he backs the second amendment..and the fact that he appeared before the  NRA national convention, answered their questions and gave a fully explanatory speech, which the NRA roundly applauded, I'll take the word .of Herman Cain and the NRA convention..ovber the claims of any "progressive" blog..any day !
   
  When I compare this information and source to a left wing "progressive" publication's 33 seconds long, truncated video..the conclusion should be obvious.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline guntech59

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He never said anything about banning guns.

He put the ball in the state's hands......where it belongs.

If we, as citizens, allow our states to make laws controlling guns, it is OUR fault.  Until, of course, it becomes a problem between two states.....then it becomes the feds business to help solve the problem between the states.

Offline billy_56081

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I wonder why someone who admittedly voted for Obama would start posting things about Republican candidates. I myself like to know my news sources.
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Offline subdjoe

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Look at that video again..
 
  TWICE..Herman Cain says; "I support the second amendment"!...
 
 The second amendment says: 
           " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right or the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".
 
         Yes, toward the end of the video he said something  like "that should be a state's decision".. At this point the video is abruptlt terminated, so we don't know what he said after that ! eo..the conclusion should be obvious.

In the videos of the full thing that is where the comments on the 2nd end. Just like that and on to the next subject.  I've looked at several, all the same thing.  Ends that subject, moves on the next.
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Joseph Lovell

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Offline ironglow

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  I find it fascinating how a fellow who unabashedly supports the LEFT WING..starts to fret about a couple seemingly conflicting statements by a solid conservative.. ;)   ;D   ;D   ...Then he goes on to support the left wing where everyone knows the anti-2nd amendment folks all feather their nests.. ;D   :P
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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  TM says;
  " The 2nd has alot of intepretation by agendi of various people...anybody can say they support it, especially any weasel worded politician.  Did Cain specify how he supports it,,,militia only, unfettered, regulated and registries, or whatever?....what Guzzi was asking ....'what speciffically are the views of this guy on RTBA"....so we need alot more info rather than cheerleading.  Now, his 9-9-9 is ridiculous and amounts to slavery".
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 ..Funny, how a guy on a hunting/shooting website can start using the usual liberal/progressive  phrases concerning the 2nd amendment, isn't it !
 
  TM;
   There is no problem understanding what the original writers of the constitution had in mind..they published their thoughts and reasons in "The Federalist Papers"..just read the appropriate Federalist Paper.
 
      Here from Federalist Paper #46;
 
   " Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it".
 
Note:  I blue highlighted a portion for easier understanding..
 
  As far as Cain's views on the 2nd..keep in mind, he just was thoroughly questioned and spoke at length to the NRA national convention..and they are enthusiastic with his candidacy.. Nuff said !
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

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Offline jimster

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There are members of this forum who will ask just where does Cain stand on gun control, even though they have been voting anti gunners in office for decades including voting for Obama who is against most all basic freedoms including guns...all because they are stuck in some political party or have a socialist ideology.  So what is the point of all this really?  Any socialist who claims to be pro gun is pretty mixed up in my opinion.  Obviously when they voted for Obama they didn't care then. Now they do? Really??   What it will come down to someday, is anyone who considers themselves free will have guns and carry them, regardless of the laws that are passed by progressives and socialists.  I don't think freedoms can be granted, they have to be taken, although it would be nice if our governments would all go a long with it and not pass gun laws. 
And I'm not pointing to anyone in this thread and saying anything about anyone being socialist here...just pointing out a number of threads over the past months seem to be kind of bass akwards...if you know what I mean.  If you are pro gun and for less fed regulations, it would be nice to know where Cain stands on everything....but to some people who visit here...what would it matter?  You can't even buy a gun if they take your wealth, so everyone best already have guns and ammo to begin with, because when these idiots are done messing around with our country, one gun and ammo to go with it will be worth more than anything else you have.  You'll need it.

Offline BBF

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IMO   Exchange the "must have" from guns to food, shelter and water and I agree. 
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Offline jimster

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Quote
IMO   Exchange the "must have" from guns to food, shelter and water and I agree.

You may not be able to keep your food, shelter and water without guns.  So I figure guns are toward the top the list.

Offline ironglow

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  One new pheonomena for the last election and this one also, which is disturbing..
   
  Some folks who are evidently conservatives, are spend more time criticizing conservative candidates than they do the radical liberals we have to get out of the seats of power in Washington.
  All they can accomplish by trying to politically assassinate the conservative candidates..is to give ammo to the "progressives" who are at this moment, destroying our country from the seats of power in Washington.
 
  Think everyone, "divide and conquer" is an old war strategy, let's not fall for it !
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Offline powderman

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Quote
IMO   Exchange the "must have" from guns to food, shelter and water and I agree.

You may not be able to keep your food, shelter and water without guns.  So I figure guns are toward the top the list.

 
YEP. Agreed Sir. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
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Offline nw_hunter

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  One new pheonomena for the last election and this one also, which is disturbing..
   
  Some folks who are evidently conservatives, are spend more time criticizing conservative candidates than they do the radical liberals we have to get out of the seats of power in Washington.
  All they can accomplish by trying to politically assassinate the conservative candidates..is to give ammo to the "progressives" who are at this moment, destroying our country from the seats of power in Washington.
 
  Think everyone, "divide and conquer" is an old war strategy, let's not fall for it !


I personally don't think it's Divide and Conquer when we try to weed out Liberals pretending to be Conservatives from the GOP. Remember the Liberal Republican picked to run against 'O" last election?The lesser of two evils is the true Divide and Conquer position.

We don't need to point out the Liberals in the Democrat party.They shine like a billboard! It's the sneaky ones hiding in the Republican party that need to be exposed. What good does it do the country to replace a Liberal Democrat with a Liberal Republican?We did it with GW and got the Department Of Homeland Security to reduce our freedoms and endless wars to waste money on we don't have.Obama was handed the Patriot Act to shove more of the Draconian policy's down us. Instead of Divide and Conquer, we need to separate the Wheat from the Chaff in the Republican party. You cannot do this by being silent "IMO"
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Offline billy_56081

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I have to say he seems to support the 2nd amendment fully from the things posted here. Having a sound bite taken out of context looks like something at first, but when put in context it is nothing. I still wonder why an admitted Obama supporter and voter would be posting devicive things abour conservative candidates!
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Offline BBF

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Quote
..............

You may not be able to keep your food, shelter and water without guns.  So I figure guns are toward the top the list.

  "towards" I agree. :)
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Offline nw_hunter

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Here is how the GOA weighed in on Herman Cain and his stand on gun issues.

http://www.gunauction.com/news/article/20111009-GOA-Where-is-Cain-on-2nd-Amendment.cfm
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Offline ironglow

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Here is how the GOA weighed in on Herman Cain and his stand on gun issues.

http://www.gunauction.com/news/article/20111009-GOA-Where-is-Cain-on-2nd-Amendment.cfm
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   It is pleasing to note that GOA was courteous enough to ASK rather than TELL..when obviously they are not sure.
  Here is a video that should answer their question, and also clarify the incendiary video clip which was posted to start this thread.  Watch the whole video,(only 1:03 long) it will clarify completely...then check out the other videos of the "Herminator", if you really want to know more..
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGb9Fu-ckSY
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Offline Heather

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If Cain thinks that states can ban guns then he is an idiot!!!! The 2nd amendment clearly lays out our right to bear arms as an unalienable right guaranteed under the CONSTITUTION. Then the 10th amendment clearly states that all powers NOT granted to the Federal Government are reserved to the States and the people. According to the CONSTITUTION we all have the right to bear arms no matter what state we live in. The BIll of Rights guarantees that no Federal or State government can infringe upon these rights!!! Wake up people and think for yourselves! Read and understand the constitution and then things like this become very simple to understand. 
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