Author Topic: .17Hornet (Read 7257 times)

tobster · « **on:** October 06, 2011, 11:30:22 AM »

Just recieved my copy of Rifle Magazine. They have a short article describing the 17Hornet cartridge that Hornady is supposed to start loading. Has anybody else heard about this? I remember years ago when Kimber of Oregon made a few 17KHornets but of course ammo was a handloading proposition. Way too pricey for me back then. Maybe I'll get a chance at an affordable production rifle in that caliber.

GatCat · « **Reply #1 on:** October 09, 2011, 04:00:58 AM »

Not to long ago I had a .17 Hornet made up, on an NEF rifle ( used a centerfire frame, a .17 HMR barrel that fit it just fine, and had it re-chambered ). Bought all the reforming dies, etc., but haven't gotten around to loading for it, yet. Now, I hope that my chamber, and the new Hornady round are one and the same. Should be, it would seem. I'm glad it was "domesticated", seems like a very sensible round. Load it down to .17 M2 or .17 HMR levels for quiet, cheap shooting, or use the full-load rounds, which I think are 20 gr. at 3600fps.
I think that there is reloading data that pushes the 20 gr. bullets even faster.
Mark

Catfish · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2011, 09:15:01 AM »

I`ve been shooting a 17 AH for several years. I will tell you that it can go from safe to dangerious with 2/10 of a grain of powder. I have always used H-4227 and 10.4 gr. is max in mine, but might be over in yours. I have seen where you can get alittle more velocity with Little Gun, but my accuracy is so good I never tried it. My gun loves the 19 gr. Calhoon bullets and shoots point blank to abt 290 yrds. I would not hesate to try a coyote with it out to 250 yrds. It`s a great little round.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2011, 10:57:10 PM »

I read the article and thought the cartridge was a 17 K Hornet. With the straighter case taper and a more pronounced shoulder. If your rifle is a 17 Hornet it likely won;t work. The Ackley might work but I'd still check angles on the shoulder etc.. Lil-Gun mkes a standard Hornet a real hummer.. I don't have a clue what it'd do for a 17 Hornet. Was in on some experiments by a friend many years ago and he finally settled on the 17 Ackley Bee as the best and easiest to load for 17 cartridge. Almost the same ballistics as a 17 Remington with less powder..so fouling was lessened.. Worked really well on p'dogs..

IOWA DON · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:58:50 AM »

I had a 700 Rem in .17 Remington and both the first and second barrel had severe throat erosion in 900 rounds. I read that a .17 Hornet barrel will last over 10,000 rounds. I have two .17 Ackley Hornet barrels for my Thompson Center TCR single shots. A 20-grain A-Max bullet at 3,650 fps zeroed one inch high at 100 yards is less than one inch low at 200 yards so its a real good good rifle on small varmints to 200 yards. I've gotten a few coyotes with mine, the furthest at 150 yards and they all went down quick. The same for the few fox gotten with it and the furthest was 225 yards. Also, with a 15-grain Berger bullet at 3,950 fps its a good long range squirrel rifle, but head shots only.

Catfish · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:51:15 PM »

It all started back many years ago when a guy name Killborne wanted to get more velocity from his .22 Hronet, so he blowed it out and to this day it is still known as the 22 K Hornet. Hot on his heels came a guy named P. O. Ackley and he started blowing outabout every case he could find and giveing the a sharper shoulder. While Killboune and I`m sure others, was blowing out cases before Ackley ever got started, Ackley more or less standardized the shape and shoulders his versions and published books and data for his versions. I have heard of the 17 K Hornet and the .17 Ackley Hornet but I believe they are the same round. If there really is 2 sets of drawing they would be very very close and preformance would be the same.

Dekker · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2011, 03:51:14 AM »

Here's a copy of the ad.

GatCat · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2011, 07:13:23 PM »

I can't enlarge the ad big enough to read...does it say anything about it being the "same"?? I think it probably is, the article in "RIFLE" mag says that Hornady legitimized a wildcat....
Mark

Catfish · « **Reply #8 on:** October 31, 2011, 04:23:07 AM »

From the looks of the picture it appears that it does not have quite as steep a shoulder as the 17 AH which would mean a grain or so less powder. GatCat forming brass is really simple. I like to use mica, but graphit works just as well. I use an old bullet box with Number 12 shot and a spoon full of mica mixed in it. Just dip the necks in in the shot for lube, and run them through your sizeing die and load. If you want to take no chance on crunching brass run them through your seating die first. H-4227 is my powder of choice and 10.4 gr. is max. load in my gun. Start around 9 grs. with a 20 gr. bullet and work up about 1/10 gr. at a time. Do it in hot weather as this round can go over presure fast due to it`s small capicity. If yours is not the 17 AH you would want to start lower than 9 grs., 7 or 8 grs.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #9 on:** October 31, 2011, 05:32:32 AM »

Any idea what new rifles might be coming out in this load?

(edited for clarity)

BassChamp · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2011, 06:26:22 AM »

I wonder if you could get a barrel for a G2 in this caliber?

Ladobe · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2011, 09:01:26 AM »

I've had most of the 17 wildcats over the years, including several 17 Ackley Hornets and a 17 Squirrel built from the Hornet case. Mostly in Contender handgun and carbine barrels, but also some single-shot rifles. As already said the 17AH is a dandy cartridge, and it is easily capable to about 350 yards on varmints, and about 250-300 for predators. I certainly wouldn't have a problem going after a coyote at 250 with one, or a fox well past that. Prepping and forming brass is some work when you do them in the thousands like I did, but they hold up well if not pushed to the max even without annealing. Hot loads are not really necessary to get a very accurate and consistent load. If I wanted more speed I simple used lighter bullets (I shot 17-30gr in mine depending on use). Never had a 17 K Hornet and can't remember the specs for them, but a fireformed 17AH has a 35 degree shoulder with nearly a 14 grain capacity (water). Note I said water. I've seen 17AH firearms hit max with less than 9gr of powder, so they and their chambers are not created equal. As said, a very small increase in powder can spike a load in small cases, 1-2 tenths of a grain can be all it takes in the 17AH/17Squirrel. Temperature extremes can do so as well. Since I have lived on the desert for over 20 years, I had summer and the rest of the year loads for mine even though my standard loads were always a sweet spot below max. Also heard a lot of talk that Lil'Gun was the powder for all Hornets, but I never used it in any of my 17 & 22 Hornets and stayed with the older standard powders. My favorite for both 17/22 Hornets was WC680, a milsurp 1680 I could get 8# of for just over $50 shipped and it would load over 5500 17AH's. I bought my brass in 500 round boxes about 4 at a time, and bullets in 1-5K quantities. Sure made loading the 17AH cheap. Even so the 17HMR was their demise and eventually replaced them as I could do almost anyting with them I could with the 17AH, AND didn't have to spend the endless hours at the reloading bench prepping brass and fumbling with small bullets. Regardless, the 17 "Hornets" are one of the most fun to shoot firearms you will ever own... so everybody ought to try at least one.

FWIW-YMMV

dorothy daily · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2011, 09:53:43 AM »

pt&g list both 17ah and 17khornet reamers,if my memory is still serving me i believer the hornady 17 will have a 25 degree neck all three are supposed to be slightly different. my dies including form,are rcbs 17 k hornet,for which i have been waiting for a 17k hornet reamer from dave kiff almost 4 months and took a phone call direct to him to get it headed my way. i am going to do both a h&r and contender,both 17hmr, but the h&r is 1n9 and the contender 1n10 twist. these to go with the recently reamed 17mach4.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2011, 02:10:24 AM »

Just wondering outloud- with Hornaday offering factory loads, will the factory loads be just the same as the older wildcats? Or maybe somewhere in between a 'classic' 17 hornet and a K horent and an AI hornet? They have undoubtedly got SAMMI specs sought and specified.

Also, still wondering what new production guns will be available in the new load. Handis? Maybe a bolt gun or two? If so, made by.......who? Savage? Marlin? Remington? The possabilities are endless. I'm gload to see a bit of life in the small bore world. The 17 caliber has been pretty slim pickins (factory offering wise) for quite some time. Not so long ago 17 rem was it. Then we get a couple of rimfire 17s. That's fun. Now we see the first new 17 cal centerfire since forever. Cool. I'm watchin.........

Maybe I'll go as my buddy Google what he knows about the SAMMI specs for the 17 hornet, and maybe who's offering guns. Sometimes he has good info, all-be-it dispersed with offers for stuff I can't imagine anybody wanting.

Hank08 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2011, 06:17:21 AM »

I'm just hoping it's a full length Hornet case and will chamber in my .17 AH. Even if it's slightly different, it won't be after firing. Picture looks close. As someone else said, I've found that sizing to .17 first in my seating die then in tbe size die works much better than just the size die.
H08

Ladobe · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2011, 09:16:22 AM »

jlwilliams,

I looked yesterday and couldn't find case specs on the Hornady site that indicate which previous cartridge it will follow the closest, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't use the full length Hornet case like the other 17 Hornets from the velocity they advertise. Did find that the first rifle that is slated to be offered for it is the Savage Model 25, and would expect others to jump on the bandwagon. As you said the commercial 17 Rem was it for a very long time until the 17HMR and 17HM2 came along - the rest were wildcats. But 3-4 years ago the 17MachIV was also commercialized as the 17 Rem Fireball. So with the 17 Hornet there will now be a pretty good range of commercial 17's to cover most situations.

After all the 17's I've had, a perfect "commercial" cover it all stable of firearms in this caliber would be the 17HM2, 17 Hornet, 17 Rem Firball and the 17DT or 17 Athena (if either was commercialized) - the 17 Rem if not. The only fly in the tea cup is the limited commercial loads available for each, so you'll give some up from handloads tuned to each firearm.

Hank,
The 17 Rem Firball is close enough to the 17MachIV that its factory ammo can be shot in a M4 chamber. Saves brass prep and reloading time from 221 Firball if you have a M4. Would bet Hornady's 17 Hornet will be about the same - possibly shootable in the AH and the K. Also agree forming 17 Hornets is not as much trouble as used to be associated with it. While I had custom 2-stage form dies and so used them and annealed at first, I soon learned to forget the annealing and to do all my fireforming in the killing fields while hunting. It was all the other brass prep steps with a small case and fumbling with small bullets reloading that made the 17HMR more attractive to me.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #16 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:44:38 AM »

I did a little cruising yesterday too. I saw some pics of the case and some pics of other, previosly made 17 hornets. Not being really expert on the subjuect (and not having the cases and a caliper in my hand) it looks to me like your assesment is right. It looks like a shortened case and the shoulder is pushed forward like an Ackley. It seems that they looked at all the previous 17 hornets and picked the features they like. Good way to go, but not quite right for anybody who is all set up with an older configuration. I think that the availability of factory formed brass (or loaded ammo) and 'standardised' dies etc is a good thing.

There is a bit of discussion over on saubier. No surprise there.

I don't know if I'll jump up and run to get the first Savage 25 that hits the shelves, but I'd certainly consider either a Contender barrel or a Handi rifle. I find either of those to be good ways to sample a cartridge without getting too committed. Then if it's not for me I can easily enough put a barrel and dies up on the Graybeard classifieds. Or, if it's all I want it to be, well then I'm all set.

Ladobe · « **Reply #17 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:29:14 AM »

Here's the 17 Ackley Hornet case dimensions to compare to if anybody finds them for the 17K Hornet or Hornady's new offering....

1armoured · « **Reply #18 on:** December 14, 2011, 04:40:07 PM »

Here's an article in Accurate Shooter .com about the Savage Model 25 and .17 Hornady Hornet.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/savage/
-
and a YouTube video;
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTWrstCABMs

and some info from Savage;

http://www.hornady.com/store/17-hornet-20-gr-V-MAX-Superformance-Varmint/

If the round is not generally available yet, then looks to be sometime in 2012.
(and then Savage have to produce the rifle !!!)

From the looks of it and the blurb,
I doubt that it will chamber in any other .17Hornet variations.
The COL is advertised to be the same, and it should fit all Hornet actions,
but,
With a shorter neck than the AH etc, it looks as if the body might be too long.

I might just end up with a Model 25 in .17, to partner my Model 40 Hornet.

cheers,
SS

alan in ga · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2012, 06:34:30 AM »

My most shot 17 Ackley Hornet barrel is still very accurate at just over 6,000 rounds. Most all were 1680 powder which is my favorite power for the 17AH. I've built 3 or 4 17 Ackley Hornet rifles but kept this one for my gopher shooting in Montana. I can shoot it up to 600 to 800 rounds without cleaning! If you have a good bore it will not foul, at least in my experience with a dozen or so 17 AH rifles [several buddys have them, too].
The 17 Hornady Hornet may not be 'exactly' the same dimensions as the 17 Ackley Hornet but I truly believe it will be JUST as accurate as the 17 Ackley Hornet. My 'die formed' cases look totally weird and still shoot super accurate when first shot and fireformed in the 17AH chamber.....just as accurate as later reloaded in fully fireformed cases.
I've been reloading since 1967. Been shooting since before that. The 17 Ackley Hornet is my favorite centerfire round to shoot. Now Hornady is going to make dies cheaper to buy and this fun similar round available to some of you that don't reload or have access to rebarreling machinery [or a good 'smith]. CZ is supposedly going to produce the 17HH in their 527 action and every CZ factory rifle I've shot has been just about as accurate as some $300 custom aftermarket barrels I've used! Dies were over $100 for the 'wildcat' 17 Ackley Hornet, now Hornady will have them for under $40 I guess.
I attended the Atlanta, GA SHOT SHOW years ago [when it was here] and asked Walt Berger [Berger Bullets] what was his favorite round to 'just shoot' and he said the 17 Ackley Hornet. Got the same answer from a custom gun build company owner. Fun is fun!
And I agree with Ladobe, again, THANKS TO HORNADY, we have the 17 HMR, another HOME RUN product that nips at the heals of the 17AH, except you don't have to save the empty cases. I took a CZ 17HMR to Montana and enjoyed the ease of loading the clips which have mild springs under the follower....easy to push 5 into the clip in your lap while the other [always take 2 clips!] is in the gun while riding around in the gopher fields!

The Old Redneck · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2012, 11:44:17 AM »

Alan in Ga, I can't believe you are still shooting that old 17 ah. Some people just like either little bullets, or those .458 flying anvils you shoot. I still have not decided what to try this 17 HH in. May try a Contender barrel.

Ladobe · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2012, 04:06:57 PM »

Quote from: 1armoured on December 14, 2011, 04:40:07 PM

...From the looks of it and the blurb,
I doubt that it will chamber in any other .17Hornet variations.
The COL is advertised to be the same, and it should fit all Hornet actions,
but,
With a shorter neck than the AH etc, it looks as if the body might be too long...

The main difference between the new 17 Hornet and 17 Ackley Hornet is the shoulder angle (25/35.62), not enough difference IMO for either not to be chambered in each other with soft Hornet brass, and if fired they would just fireform to the chamber shot in. SB safe as long as the ammo in not at maximum load for either (which at 3650 FPS isn't). When you get close to max in a 17AH it doesn't take much powder to reach or exceed it IOW - probably the same for the 17H.

alan in ga · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2012, 05:40:07 PM »

Quote from: The Old Redneck on January 22, 2012, 11:44:17 AM

Alan in Ga, I can't believe you are still shooting that old 17 ah. Some people just like either little bullets, or those .458 flying anvils you shoot. I still have not decided what to try this 17 HH in. May try a Contender barrel.

Well one thing for sure, I've shot a LOT of rifles, and the .458 Win Mag [factory gun] and the .458 American I built were fun, but I could stand only so much 'fun'. There is definately a 'FUNNER' factor with the 17s and similar rounds. Very fast, very accurate, and very LITTLE recoil and muzzle blast. Guess I'm just getting to be a wimp, but so be it.....love the 17s. I've sold about everything but a few rifles in .250 Savage and .250 Ackley Improved but even those rifles just don't get shot much if I get some range time.
What's REALLY PATHETIC on my part is a really nice CZ 527 American in 7.62x39 that I made from a carbine. I told a gunsmith friend of mine that was going to the range to shoot a few groups with it to see if "I liked it". Is that not the pits?.....asking a friend [one of the few I trust to just take my rifle....to "shoot it for me"? {can't believe I told this in public forum : 0

tuck2 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2012, 10:16:33 PM »

The data I got from Hornady showed that the MAX load 10.1 Gr of Lil Gun powder behind the 20 Gr V Max bullet in Hornady cases with Winchester primer had a MV of 3,750 ft/sec from a 24 inch barrel. The 25 Gr HP bullet MV was 3,350 ft/sec with a MAX load of 9.2 Gr of Lil Gun powder. Have been looking around for different rifle brands , Ruger, CZ, and Anschultz may also be comming out with a 17 Hornady Hornet. I enjoy shooting 17 caliber rifles so I ll add the 17 H rifle to my 17 HM2, 17 HMR, 17 Fireball, and 17 Rem rifle group, when one comes out that I like. Hornadys web site lists cases , FL reloading dies, and loaded 20 Gr V-Max ammo . I entered the 20 Gr B.C. 0.185 bullet into my ballistics program with a 1.5 PBR and 3,750 ft/sec MV at 3,850 Ft elevation, scope center 1.5 in and got: at 50 Yds -0.05 in, 100 Yds +0.68 in, 150 Yds + 0.59, 200 Yds - 0.45 in, 250 Yds - 2.62 in, 275 Yds -4.17 in, and 300 Yds - 6.05 in. I live in prairie dog country and dont go out on windy days so the little 17 H will work out fine for me.

bowhunter27295 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2012, 03:12:27 PM »

Has anyone seen any information about this round being chambered by CZ?

Also, how fur friendly is the 17 round? I watched the video on youtube and it looks rather......stout. Seemed to really sling those prairie dogs. I trap so I put up the fur but I have a friend who is dying for me to go predator hunting with him. He's a big yote hunter with other predators as secondary. Yotes aren't worth the trouble to skin but I still do it. Fox are bringing decent prices this year. I want to knock them down quick but not cut them in half or blow a baseball size hole in them. I'd like to consider a range of 200 yds max. I reload so I could make a load for either size animal I assume. It's just that fox and b'cat are so thin skinned. Input?

Thanks.

Ladobe · « **Reply #25 on:** March 29, 2012, 07:56:34 AM »

I have been a huge fan of 17's for many, many years, used them constantly for predator and varmint hunting and had a bunch of firearms chambered for them. So my opinion is biased...

When pelt hunting you can get a splatter with just about any bullet if the shot placement dictates it, but in general the 17's are more fur friendly than any other caliber. Bullet choice is a key just like with any other caliber, I preferred 25gr, but with the 17's laser accuracy shot placement is seldom a problem. IMO the 17AH/17H is as fur friendly as you can get short of the 17 Squirrel or 17HMR on predators, and is the quintessential cartridge for thin skinned fox. Far more often than not you'll get a micro entry and no exit. Add the accuracy and hydrostatic shock of the 17's and they put them down hard with a good hit. The 17's are simply the varmint and predators hunters dream caliber when matched to the game and ranges IMO. In a pinch any 17 can be used for any predator within its effective range for that predator. The traditional best match up for coyotes has always been the 17 Rem and the wildcats that are in the same class ballistically with it, but those on down to the mid case sized 17's give up nothing but a little range on them. The mid cases are perfect to their effective ranges. But the small cases for fox are hard to beat if you want pelts. Here in the west where shots can range from in your face to the next county the mid case up 17's are probably the most popular. Even so I tended to prefer the mid's down as I seldom had much problem getting the preds in reasonably close. If they are hanging up long its often very long... time for the 24's, 25's and 26's. Contrary to popular belief a 17 driven fast is not affected by reasonable wind as much as some think. Wind had to be getting more serious to very serious for me to move up to the 24, 25 and 26 caliber wildcats.

Anyway, for your 200 yard max a 17AH/17H is more than enough up to coyotes, but so was the 17HMR for me too in reasonable wind even just shooting 17gr TNT's.

bowhunter27295 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 30, 2012, 04:30:01 PM »

I haven't been here that long but that was a very much appreciated post. Nice to hear some real world experience and applications.

Many thanks friend.

nomosendero · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:39:48 PM »

Quote from: bowhunter27295 on March 30, 2012, 04:30:01 PM

I haven't been here that long but that was a very much appreciated post. Nice to hear some real world experience and applications.

Many thanks friend.

Welcome aboard !!

poncaguy · « **Reply #28 on:** April 07, 2012, 05:18:47 AM »

I wonder how it compares to the Remington 17 Fireball, which I have....and love.

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** April 07, 2012, 03:21:15 PM »

Quite a bit slower, just go to the hornady site & look. www.hornady.com