.45-70 vs. 416 Rigby

[JJHACK]

There is no mixed message at all.

Use what you like, you're welcome to seek out a PH/outfitter that will take you with anything you choose. Maybe this part of the post was glossed over or misunderstood.

One thing that would have to be accepted however,....... is the knowledge that if you shoot that bull and it runs off, it's your money in the form of a trophy fee that is running off. If he runs off and the PH shoots, are you comfortable with your trophy being poked with a 45/70 and killed with a 458Lott?

Nobody is shooting a second shot at the same instant of the first that works for me. However none of them are going to let an animal run off that has been hit, tracked up and needs another hit to end the situation.

I simply cannot write anymore clearly then I have already. If you don't agree, or don't like my opinion, or believe what I'm saying then you're certainly welcome to go after these animals at high volume and develop your own first hand opinions after you've seen a bunch shot and followed up.

Enjoy!

[straydog]

      Guys,
 I think maybe the realistic thing to do is at least for the first trip out to Africa
 at least for me, is for trying the plains game.Man I don't know for the first time out
I don't know if I want to dump 15-20K on Buff or 35-40K on elephant at this point.
I think the prices like JJ has for the whole stay 10-14 days are VERY good and realistic
for me at this time without my wife going ballistic on me.Heck actually you can hunt those plains
animals cheaper than allot of hunts here in the USA.I think the thing to do is hunt 3 plains game
or so and take my wife and let her do a photo safari.That would really be cool and maybe she
would come back again then MAYBE I could try a DG but probably I would do some other plains
game though.JJ do you thing a model 70 winchester in 300 mag would work ok for the plains game
I have a 6-18x redfield on it??? Now I am really getting stoked for a trip over there.you know just  a       
year ago going to Malibu Ca.for 2 weeks ending up blowing over 12K,man Africa would be so cool??
      I also would like to buy some hand made items the natives sell too.
       See you guys later and many safe hunts--Straydog   

[Zelsdorf]

I shoot a P-14 Enfield converted to 45-70.  Top load so far is 60 grs. Re7 behind a Barnes original semi spitzer 400 gr.  With a 26" barrel, I will put this load and rifle up against any 416 as far as killing power goes.

[Graybeard]

Yet another dumb response to a seriously dumb thread. Why does this go on forever? First you are GROSSLY over loading the round. Even in a strong action like the Ruger #1 Hornady lists 55 grains as max for a 350 grain bullet. The Barnes is 50 grains heavier and tougher meaning you are more over the safety limit with it.

With the 350 and 55 grains velocity is listed as 2100 fps. With a 400 grain even with proof load pressures you are likely running you'd be lucky to match that velocity using the Barnes bullet. It is still a short fat bullet that loses velocity fast and you are wanting to compare it to a .40 caliber 400 grain of vastly superior BC going 2400 fps.

Ya might wanna stick to squirrel hunting.

[dukkillr]

Why does the 45-70 inspire so many people to these arguments?  It's almost like these people are personally offended when someone points out the limitations of it.  What gives?

[BMKindoll]

As I said before in another post, and this is coming from someone who doesn't own a 45/70 rifle, is this:

The "non 45/70" crowd will claim that it's ridiculous for someone to try and rationalize why a 45/70 would be effective for DG.  But yet these are the same people that are arguing AGAINST something that has already been proven to work effectively in the exact capacity being discussed here.  I find that ridiculous.

And I think for some people, including myself, it rubs them the wrong way when people come to these forums and put down any caliber that they don't use personally, simply because they don't use it.  All of this going against rationality simply based on the fact that "I'm a guide, and I wouldn't use it, so it must be crap and totally ineffective" (Disclaimer: Nobody actually said this, just to clarify.  It's just the mentality some folks convey)  I agree experience in a particular profession is important.  But it don't make someone an expert.



Brandon

[Tonk]

I own several lever guns and really enjoy them a lot, I hunt hogs, deer, blackbear with them but I would never consider them in the same class as my bolt action model 70 .416 Remington, .458-Lott or even my .375Wby.

I look at these threads and posts on lever gun 45/70's like comparing an S-10 pickup truck to a full blown Superduty F-350 4x4. Now this ought to simplfy things for just about anybody. Mr. Hack has spent a lot of time trying to educate many but you just can't not cure Stupid or an IQ that is below the table top.

[BMKindoll]

So is the guy that used a 45-70 to legitimately take down DG in Africa stupid?  Does he have a low IQ?  Because I think someone that ignores the facts and listens blindly to what someone, who calls himself an expert, tells them is not so bright.

Have some tact folks.

Brandon

[Graybeard]

One LAST time and if this don't end it then I likely will just lock it down and end it.

No one including Jim has said you can't use a .45-70 in Africa. It's legal most places for at least some of what is classified as dangerous game. It's just that it is quite marginal. Hell you have a professional backing you up. If you want to put one bullet into your animal then let the pro kill it for you that's what he's paid to do so yeah he'll do it for you and not tell the world he had to.

Jim's point mostly is that it's NOT a dangerous game STOPPER meaning it's not what ya want in your hands when a wounded big five animal comes looking for blood of the fellow who punched that hole in it. Why is it so hard for you folks to comprehend what the man is saying to you.

Many of us here have and use .45-70s. I find them no better at killing deer than a .243 to be honest. I'd sure not chose one to hunt Africa with should I decide to go there which I don't figure I ever will. It's a stunt mostly and what whoever "that guy" was failed to tell you is that most likely the majority of his game was killed by his professional hunter.

[efremtags]

This is debated to death, but it seems that the different sides never really listen to each other.

There is a difference between an adequate hunting round and an adequate DG stopping round. They both have a place and mixing the 2 causes arguments.

a 45-70 is not a DG stopper. The gold standard for a DG stopper is the 470 NE (2150FPS 500Gr 5000ftlb). If your gun/ammo is not at least this, it is not considered a stopper period end of discussion, 100 years of history don't lie. The advantage of a stopper, it will drop anything that walks inside of 75 yards. For some animals, that means a near miss will usually produce enough concussive effect to slow things down a bit. That's when you see elephant head shot but miss the brain, but they still fall long enough for several follow up shots that will hit.

The gold standard for adequate hunting round is the 375 HH (2300 FPS 300GR 4000ftlb). This is the legal minimum.

Now the confusion is the 45-70 is a true big bore (above 40 cal). But since it lacks case capacity, it can neither drive a heavy bullet fast, nor a light bullet with a high enough BC to make it compete with smaller dia calibers.

Is the 45-70 suitable for DG, well in my opinion it is on par with a 375 inside of 100 yards. Look at factory ammo comparison:

45-70
Buffalo bore 350 gr. J.F.N. (2100 fps / M.E. 3500 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22 - 24" Bar.)
Grizzly Ammo 400 gr. PUNCH  W.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3600 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22-24" bar.)

300HH
Federal 300 gr TBX (2470 fps, ME 4064 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)
Federal 300 gr TB solid (2470 fps, ME 3966 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)

I have not seen anyone disucss these 2 relevant comparisons in a fair dis-passionate manner, I have heard how the 375 will shoot farther thus negating the effectiveness of the lever gun. Duh, it's skinny and fast, that doesn't prove anything regarding the stipulated limits (which are reasonable) above. With good bullets i can't see how a 375 can be considered utterly world class and a 45/70 touted as a stunt.

To answer the 45/70 DG fanatics out there, there are photos of probably a dozen guys out there who shot elephant and other big stuff, lets say 25-50 in the world since the 45/70 has stepped foot in Africa. the classics (470NE, 458WM, 416 class) have killed thousands upon thousands, there is no comparison to make here, regardless of who is making the claim, but some Phs on this site do not have to be stuck-up ish when stating the obvious (some have been highly responsive with great positive feedback, you know who you all are).

[tracker370]

Well put.

[dukkillr]

This is debated to death, but it seems that the different sides never really listen to each other.

There is a difference between an adequate hunting round and an adequate DG stopping round. They both have a place and mixing the 2 causes arguments.

a 45-70 is not a DG stopper. The gold standard for a DG stopper is the 470 NE (2150FPS 500Gr 5000ftlb). If your gun/ammo is not at least this, it is not considered a stopper period end of discussion, 100 years of history don't lie. The advantage of a stopper, it will drop anything that walks inside of 75 yards. For some animals, that means a near miss will usually produce enough concussive effect to slow things down a bit. That's when you see elephant head shot but miss the brain, but they still fall long enough for several follow up shots that will hit.

The gold standard for adequate hunting round is the 375 HH (2300 FPS 300GR 4000ftlb). This is the legal minimum.

Now the confusion is the 45-70 is a true big bore (above 40 cal). But since it lacks case capacity, it can neither drive a heavy bullet fast, nor a light bullet with a high enough BC to make it compete with smaller dia calibers.

Is the 45-70 suitable for DG, well in my opinion it is on par with a 375 inside of 100 yards. Look at factory ammo comparison:

45-70
Buffalo bore 350 gr. J.F.N. (2100 fps / M.E. 3500 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22 - 24" Bar.)
Grizzly Ammo 400 gr. PUNCH  W.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3600 ft. lbs.) (in guide gun, likely 100-150fps in a 22-24" bar.)

300HH
Federal 300 gr TBX (2470 fps, ME 4064 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)
Federal 300 gr TB solid (2470 fps, ME 3966 ft lbs) (in 24" barallel)

I have not seen anyone disucss these 2 relevant comparisons in a fair dis-passionate manner, I have heard how the 375 will shoot farther thus negating the effectiveness of the lever gun. Duh, it's skinny and fast, that doesn't prove anything regarding the stipulated limits (which are reasonable) above. With good bullets i can't see how a 375 can be considered utterly world class and a 45/70 touted as a stunt.

To answer the 45/70 DG fanatics out there, there are photos of probably a dozen guys out there who shot elephant and other big stuff, lets say 25-50 in the world since the 45/70 has stepped foot in Africa. the classics (470NE, 458WM, 416 class) have killed thousands upon thousands, there is no comparison to make here, regardless of who is making the claim, but some Phs on this site do not have to be stuck-up ish when stating the obvious (some have been highly responsive with great positive feedback, you know who you all are).

BUT I HAVE A 45-70 AND I LIKE IT!  I READ ON THE INTERNET WHERE SOME GUY SHOT 2,487,812 TYRANASAROUS REXES WITH ONE AND NOT A SINGLE ONE EVER TOOK A STEP!  Why can't people accept this?  Me personally?  No, I've never actually seen any dangerous game outside of a zoo but I've read alot on the internet, AND I LIKE THE 45-70! 

[JJHACK]

A .223 in the hands of a cool hunter that is experienced and a good shot that can place his bullet exactly as needed can very likely kill any animal alive on this planet.

I don't think anyone would doubt the effectiveness of the .223 solid placed with flawless anatomical precision. The .223 is an easy rifle to shoot, and deadly accurate.....we could do this. Archery is also an option that has been used frequently and legally. As are Muzzle loading rifles. I've had hunters with these options. There are however some concerns with these as options.

Flawless anatomical precision is not available very often. We don't get to make that choice. In the grand scheme of things the hunter has the least control of this recreational endeavor. The Game and the weather control far more then the human. The habitat adds to the mix and wind also creates issues. So we have actually very little to do with the big picture except to be placed into "THEIR WORLD" and hope we fit into it and get back out unscathed.

The choices you make when you enter this world are usually up to you. With some guidance from the law, or professionals that you work with to accomplish this. Many attempt this every year. Many are successful many come home feeling successful, but may not judge the success or tell the whole story as it actually occurred.

I was guiding bear hunters for 15 years in Idaho and Washington with hounds in my younger years. I took plenty with a bow, and of those I had at least a dozen that ran out of arrows trying to shoot a treed bear and hitting branches or glancing bad shots into the bear. These hunters used my gun to kill the bear. Several wanted to enter the bears into Pope and Young and asked if I would go along with this since they actually hit the bear with an arrow and it would have eventually died. 

Mr.Ross from Ross Archery now called Bowtech I think, hunted Grizzly bear on Kodiak island with his bow. At 10 yards his guide shot the bear with a rifle. before the first arrow was released. Fred Bear shot 5 polar bears before he killed one that was not hit with a follow up rifle shot.

The point of this is, there are a lot of things that people read about, or there might be a level of assumed status with things that leave some of the facts out of the story the more it's told, or the longer it lives. A fellow PH in RSA had the most successful and fully booked DG camp I have ever known. I did not work with him but felt he was such a great success with incredible knowledge on DG having been involved with this for such a long time. Over the years I became fairly good friends with one of the guys working for him. I learned of a few techniques they used to hold these DG hunts. They were almost all in RSA which has/had a significant level of exemptions for hunting all game, but in this case Dangerous game.

Something that is not well known about RSA over the last 25 years is the amount of Lion farms that exist. Lions are raised in a farm/zoo like environment for hunters. They are connected to a 500-1000 acre very high electric fence enclosure. This allows the big beautiful full maned lion that has never been in a fight to wander around and have the hunter stalk and shoot this big lion. Some hunters don't get this as they hunt over bait and never realize the size of the enclosure, some don't care they can tell any story they want when they come home.

There is an exact situation used for the other species of DG as well. Hunt the client for 3-4 days hard all over the open bush country. Then Bring the hunter in before first light to sit in the blind over a small water hole which is the only water on the small fenced property. Now he has no idea he's on 250 acres and he's not walking around, the Buffalo, elephant, lion, etc. is released at the other end just after light. He eventually gets to the water and the hunter shoots. when the hunt is over the excitement and adrenaline is so high the visitor never realised what he just did. And in some cases they do and simply don't care they can tell any story they want when they get home.

When your DG comes from a country like RSA many very experienced African Hunter will simply roll their eyes with the thoughts of this kind of hunt. Countless people have called me to talk about booking a hunt in RSA for DG. The ones who have heard these stories ask about the option of Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Mozambique, Zambia, they really don't want the stigma of an RSA DG hunt among their peers. There are tons of free range wild DG in RSA. However over the years it's become somewhat of a stereotype of "put and take" or Canned hunting.

It's not all this way, nothing I use in RSA will be done this way. I think this is disgusting. The vast majority of this hunting is in southern South Africa out of Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape. Much of the hunting for DG where Marketing is concerned is done this way. It's predictable, controlled, can be set up for filming with far greater precision. Video can be taken all over Africa in parks, and then the actual hunt can be made on one of these Canned properties. When the footage and photo's are done, the script is written and the marketing campaign is set in motion.

My suggestion is to ask the hunter involved or the company providing the marketing information where the hunt took place, who was the outfitter. You will see a trend here that fits exactly with the success stories of how these things settle out. One of the reasons is the legal issues involved with firearms and archery laws outside of RSA in Africa. You can no longer hunt with Archery in Tanzania. RSA has rewritten the laws on Canned Lion hunts. This is coming to an end now.

So if you're truly interested in the real story behind all the hype and marketing. Look further into this. There is way more to the story and way things are done when money is the driving force and especially where the male ego is concerned!
 

[Graybeard]

Yes efremtags that's kinda what I was getting at with fewer words. Folks just don't seem to get the difference in what ya might get by with for hunting especially when backed by a professional with a real stopping rifle and what a stopping rifle is. That a particular round might kill game even effectively when properly placed doesn't make it a DG stopper.

[dave hall]

There no way in hell if somethings gos bad with DG I'd want just a 45-70 in my hands. 416 Rigby or 458 Lott at the least.The 45-70 is on the small end of the .458 class of cartridges.

[straydog]

JJ's last response was spot on!
Let's just put an end to this dead horse.
If someone want's to shoot DG(if legal)say with a 400gr punch bullet 45-70 fine.Hopefully it does you well.
If it floats your boat do it.
Is it as lethal as the other BIG AMMO(.416/.458/450 nitro/.470 on and on ----NO
I love the 45-70 as much as the next guy but let's be truthful.
Would it not be nice to say,I took that elephant with one shot by just myself(after spending $30K)Yeah!
So,me I will take a .458 Lott

Real is Real!  If that don't sink in nothing else will!

[jakes10mm]

I'd look at the whole discussion a different way:  Traditional Bowhunter...traditional cartridge (45-70 Govt).  I hunt PA deer with a Ruger #1 in 45-70.  Early on, I handloaded max loads for the "modern rifle" category.  After enough complaining from my shoulder, my standard deer load is now a 405gr cast bullet traveling at ~1400 fps.  As was mentioned in another post, when you move to a more "marginal" cartridge, accurate shot placement becomes more critical.  Our degrading marksmanship skills has given rise to the overkill cartridges. 

[don heath]

I Hunt Zimbabwe where the .45 -70 is technically only legal for small game. I have personally shot elephant and buffalo with a revolver, shot a buffalo with a bow and a lion with a Martini Henry (basically a .45-90 - black powder only load) I have guided clients who have used bows, ML Black powder guns and hand guns on lion, buff and ele. Heck I have even had a couple use a .45-70

a) Buffalo and Elephant are two different problems. With a (realistic) load a 400grn bullet from a .45-70 is adequate for buff from just about any angle. With a Barnes solid or other similar bullet, a .45-70 will work for a frontal brain shot on ele cow or side brain on a big bull. No amount of 'hot loading' will ever make the .45-70 suitable for a PH's back up rifle.

b) The client is paying- use what you like. I personally dislike backing up clients- 90% of wounded game recovers so if the client shoots badly, that is his problem - unless it is likely to stand on me. Then intervention seems reasonable The client must simply understand the limitations of the weapon system he is using- and I use the term system deliberatly- sights, firearm type, bullet type (or bow type/draw weight/arrow style). All affect his ability to cleanly take the animal being hunted, and affect the PH's decisions reguarding appropriate shooting angles etc.   

[Zelsdorf]

JJHack, I wonder how you judge will to live in an animal?  I shoot a 26 inch barrel P-14 Enfield converted to 45-70.  I increased the length of the throat to not restrict the amount of powder I can load.  62 grains of RE-7 behind a Barnes 400 gr. semi spitzer should pretty much match what a factory 416 produces.  I can use the same charge behind a 500 gr Hornady.  For those who shoot lever actions, two quick shots from a 45-70 is sure to be better than one from a 416.  Might not be the first choice for Cape Buffalo, but with the right load, it should work.

[Graybeard]

Enough of this BS I'm locking this one down.