Author Topic: .45-70 vs. 416 Rigby (Read 38798 times)

bud340 · « **Reply #90 on:** May 26, 2006, 05:50:22 PM »

Quote

Bashaw Sports is a great business! Superior service and prices. I live in Whitecourt and I've bought a couple of guns from them.

bud340 see my comments about overloaded .45-70. Of course this is all IMHO but 2000fps MV with 400gr in a Marlin 1895?
Man that's some serious velocity! I hope that load is safe

Yes, it hits hard enough to be impressive for a 45/70 but in my thoughts it still isn't an "African monster killer" or even something I would want to use on plains animals. I would rather use my .340 that I have carried around for 25 years. There has to be a reason for the .375 to be considered a minimum and because of that alone I would take my new .375 H&H.

Demonical:
I feel the load is safe in "my rifle". There are not any signs of excessive pressure on the empty cases. They look and measure the same as the "store bought" 405 gr. Remington bullets I use for farm chores. The rifle also sounds good when you pull the trigger, it doesn't sound like a rifle that is going to come apart. That is about all I can say about it.

If you are going near Bashaw get in touch I am retired and have lots of time for coffee.

Demonical · « **Reply #91 on:** May 26, 2006, 06:04:43 PM »

Quote from: bud340

Quote
Bashaw Sports is a great business! Superior service and prices. I live in Whitecourt and I've bought a couple of guns from them.

bud340 see my comments about overloaded .45-70. Of course this is all IMHO but 2000fps MV with 400gr in a Marlin 1895?
Man that's some serious velocity! I hope that load is safe

Yes, it hits hard enough to be impressive for a 45/70 but in my thoughts it still isn't an "African monster killer" or even something I would want to use on plains animals. I would rather use my .340 that I have carried around for 25 years. There has to be a reason for the .375 to be considered a minimum and because of that alone I would take my new .375 H&H.

Demonical:
I feel the load is safe in "my rifle". There are not any signs of excessive pressure on the empty cases. They look and measure the same as the "store bought" 405 gr. Remington bullets I use for farm chores. The rifle also sounds good when you pull the trigger, it doesn't sound like a rifle that is going to come apart. That is about all I can say about it.

If you are going near Bashaw get in touch I am retired and have lots of time for coffee.

bud340 that sounds good!! Coffe and retired and BS about hunting and guns is a great idea!! I don't get down that way often but I will try to look you up.

As for the .45-70, I was talking about this issue with my buddy, who has lots of knowledge on the bench and he pointed out that barrel length can make a significant diff' on .45-70 velocity. I think EsoxLucius may have made this same point.

I am by no means an authority on reloading the .45-70. Please don't take offense. I just urge caution.

Cheers, Jim.

Downeaster · « **Reply #92 on:** July 18, 2006, 09:53:31 AM »

I don't reload for the 45/70 Marlin and I don't own one -yet ;. However, they are able to handle the Garrett and Buffalo Bore loads, which would, without question handle all African Plains Game, as well as Lions and Leopards (no problem). While African game laws may vary, Lions and Leopards could be taken out with much less than a 416 Rigby (which I agree is more powerful than a 45/70).

Check out the Buffalo Bore link:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#450M

Tell me those can't handle African game - please

JJHACK · « **Reply #93 on:** July 18, 2006, 10:08:41 AM »

I hate to prolong the agony here but when you shoot a lion with a hard cast bullet that zips right on through like an arrow with a field tip, don't expect much reaction from it.

You need ..............NEED.........a soft point jacketed bullet preferably a premium bullet to have a good responsible chance at knocking down and anchoring a lion. I suppose those who have never seen one shot and spin around with a premium soft point from a 375HH or a 416, then take off running so fast they vainsh, or turn on the hunters in the blind or standing in the bush it's probably hard to grasp this stuff.

Lions are not bullet proof, but they can cover 100 yards in about 5 seconds once shot through the chest with a properly constructed hunting bullet, much less a solid! There are video's we have taken with measured distance and time on the film. It's no stretch or embellishment to say 100 yards in under 5 seconds. You shoot one with a "no reaction" solid and then somehow manage to .......not panic.........when that lion is coming right at you and you have less then 5 seconds to make it right after the first one did not.

It's why a PH is required!

Killing DG is not the issue now, nor has it ever been. Crumpling it is the issue. Solids.....unless CNS hits are involved don't have any impact or crumple power. That's what jacketed softs are for. A square actually developed an extra soft bonded bullet for lions they called the lion load. Why is it you figure they went out of thier way to manufacture a special bullet just for lions .............and this with a high velocity centerfire rifle, not a 45/70!

Solids have no place in plains game or Soft skinned DG hunting anywhere on earth. It's a big mistake some folks only make one time.

Downeaster · « **Reply #94 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:47:13 AM »

Hi JHack,

I have never been to Africa, so I definitely will not question your expertise. I also agree about solids not being the best choice for thin skinned game (Plains and Lions/Leopards). What I was mainly referring to was the Buffalo Bore loadings as follows:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Per Box of 20
$46.19
Order Now!

Item 8B: 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!
Item 8C: 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3592 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!

Item 8D:
500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.)
A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the
deepest penetration on the largest game animals. Per Box of 20
$56.69
Order Now!
Item 8E: 300gr. Speer Uni Core @ 2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)
(Big Game up to 500 lbs. - Expander Load) Per Box of 20
$45.14
Order Now!

Exterior Ballistics

Item 8A 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-24)
Item 8B 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-23)
Item 8C 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-20)
Item 8D 100yds (0) 150yds (-6) 200yds (-17) 250yds (-33)
Item 8E 100 yds (0) 150yds (-2) 200yds (-8) 250yds (-18)

All the above velocities are recorded from factory stock Marlin rifles with 22" barrels.

When using Marlin Guide Guns with 18.5" barrels deduct an average of 50 fps with the above loads.

We use only factory stock firearms in recording velocities, so that you get true, actual field velocities with our ammo --- not exaggerated test barrel velocities

All .45-70 Magnum loadings are intended for use in the following firearms:
All Marlin Model 1895 variations made since 1972
Browning Model 1885 and 1886
New England Arms Handi-Rifle
Ruger #1 and #3
T/C Encore
Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps
New Production Winchester 1886

The 500 gr. load uses a dual diameter, bonded core bullet by Alaska Bullet Works. The bullet diameter in front of the crimp groove is .449 inch, while measuring .457 inch on the shank. This dual diameter allows for reliable chambering in rifles with short or no throats. This is a non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the deepest penetration on the largest game animals. This load is safe for use in any firearm designed for the other BBA .45/70 MAG. LEVER GUN cartridges.

Now, you have to admit some of these babies would slice through and drop (on the spot) African Plains game and Lions/Leopards.
I'm talking about the expanding bullets. When you combine those ballistics with the quick handling capabilities (considerably quicker than a bolt gun) of a Levergun, I bet they would work like the cat's meow.

I also believe that the heavy penetrator bullets would work on Cape Buffalo.

DC · « **Reply #95 on:** October 24, 2006, 06:09:52 PM »

I have both and have hunted with both. Because a caliber can do the job, ie 45-70, if a better choice is available, in this case the 416 Rigby, one should take it. I am sorry but a 400 Gr. solid coming out the tube at 2,400 fps is waaayyy better than a 45-70, any 45.70 load at any range.
African game has been successfully killed with both but for my money and my life, the 416 Rigby would be the choice hands down. By the way, the PH on the African hunt would be most nervous when you announced that you planned to use a 45-70.

Rev Buck · « **Reply #96 on:** October 25, 2006, 04:05:36 PM »

This is such an interesting and entertaining thread, I'm so glad to see you fellows keep it alive after all these years

. I have both a .45/70 and a .450 Marlin and I love them both. I truly believe the .450 is the best black bear round out there. A friend of mine in Tennessee makes up a load for me that pushes a 300 grain, .458 dia. Nosler partition at about 2100 fps. That's out of my 18.5 inch barrel, not a 24 inch test barrel. The Nosler holds together well at all velocities but still opens up all the way down to less than 1000 fps. Last year I shot a really large blackie with this load (6 ft. 8 inches long, 480 lbs.) and the results were impressive to say the least. Great entry and exit holes, awesome blood, and some of the most devastating internal heart/lung damage I have seen in 40 years of hunting. I would not hesitate to shoot almost anything out to 150 yards with this combination or to hunt plains game over a waterhole with it. It is obviously not a long range round; however it should do to the job on antelope of any kind at waterhole distances.

All that being said, of course, a black bear is not the same as a lion or an eland. As much as I enjoy my .45/70 and .450, when I get to hunt with JJ hopefully in a year or two, I think I will be sensible and bring along my .30-06 instead

, Rev

mk454 · « **Reply #97 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:09:20 PM »

wow, great thread but a couple things i've yet to see discussed.

jjhack -- well you're obviously a ph and make a lot of good points, however, i have a 416 rigby, 375 hh and a 45/70 guide gun along with a plethora of big bore pistols. i'd just like a clarification on a couple of fronts.

1) you equate a flat point hard cast with a field point. i assume this means you've not yet used one as that is most assuredly not correct. if you had, and had actually inspected the wound channel you'd see what i mean. in fact, the wound channel on a garrett hammerhead is quite impressive and is nothing like a field point. it's the round nose solids i have shot out of the .375hh and the 416 that have the "field point" effect. the hardcast are brittle depending on their makeup and some are, some most certainly aren't. the garrett's aren't. and neither are a few others. i've actually gotten better penetration with slower flatpoint lead bullets in both calibers. i in no way doubt your credibility as a ph, but many of your words seem to lead me to believe that you have very very little experience with the 45/70 or at least the garrett and other appropriate loads.

with the massive amounts of game taken by the 454 and the 475, how can the effectiveness be questioned of a 45/70. the bullets don't get upset and all i hear is ballistics. one of the most misleading topics ever. for example, shoot an elk with a 338 and a 30/30, at 50-100 yards the 338 certainly doesn't do anything noticeably different. seen em run in the boiler room with a 338 and seen em poleaxed with a 30/30 and vice versa.

soooooooooooo...............according to the logic here, i need to sell the above three guns b/c the 460 weatherby is "better" than all the above and leaves the lott in it's wake! i think most have seen the opposite experience.

in my calls to various ph's and outfitters, they seem to all vary on the 45/70 but it always come down to experience, those that have experienced it. would someone tell me about the 45/70 failures? many many many alaskan guides will swear on the ole' 45/70 over the 375 and 416's for large bears and i find that hard to believe mine in alaska would have used it and the garretts if the bullets were brittle and the wound was akin to a "field point".

btw, my favorite of the above is the 375 as an all around. just a great caliber and i'd use it on anything with the barnes bullets but my 45/70 will out penetrate either the 375 and 416 every day of the week.

mk454 · « **Reply #98 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:53:32 PM »

to clear up the above analogy on the elk with a 3030 and with a 338, i want to point out the results i listed are the way they are b/c both calibers are "adequate" for that given range and the game involved. one can't be "more adequate". lengthen it to 300 yards and we have a caliber with a definite advantage. i sure wish more on here did pistol hunting of tough hogs and elk. refining and understanding the different ways the cartridges "kill" and produce a wound channel would really shed some light here.

based on everything i and my mentors have done and seen, i'm actually opposite most on here. i think it's b/c the ballistics mean pretty much squat to me. another 300 fps doesn't necessarily mean anything in terminal performance. although sometimes it will. i'd rather use my 375 or 416 on the lions and use the 45/70 on the buff and elephants. i'm using solids on all big dangerous game like elephants, hippos, and buff, but when the game changes and i'm gonna use an expanding bullet (current favorite is the barnes) that's when imho the 375 and the 416 shine. i much rather center punch a lion with a 400 grain barnes x than a solid and the extra energy can be utilized.

no round nosed solid or any current load in the 416 has been shown to outpenetrate the best the 45/70 has to offer.

mk454 · « **Reply #99 on:** April 29, 2007, 10:06:35 PM »

one last thing, the above comments are only valid until i get an "over" .50 african rifle. then i will join the "ballistically elite" and can then look to smaller cartridges i would inevitably shoot better as "inferior". then perhaps i could get a job as a gunwriter or a ph and try and convince thousands of potential clients on how to "brain" a buffalo through the nose like the article in this 3 year old guns and ammo article says and i could mislead all those hunters.

in answer to the original post the comparison is that they're "different". it's like comparing my '06 to a .454. ones a bigger bullet, ones a faster much more powerful ft/lbs wise bullet. one is better on shots out to 400 yards than the other, the other is better close when the target bites back, imho. in the end both will kill anything you hit in a vital spot and will do so as well as an "ultra mag" and the analogy holds true for the 2 original rounds in question.

gwindrider1 · « **Reply #100 on:** April 30, 2007, 04:17:21 AM »

I've read these 45-70 vs.

debates on every site that I visit for years now. Will it ever end?

mk454 · « **Reply #101 on:** April 30, 2007, 06:34:31 AM »

James B · « **Reply #102 on:** May 13, 2007, 08:18:15 AM »

The debate will go on forever

. However unless you go to the garret site and read all the info with an open mind and an idea of the difference between power on paper and real killing power, one comes to the debate unarmed.

mk454 · « **Reply #103 on:** May 13, 2007, 11:23:44 AM »

penetration is a wierd thing, and i've watched my .454 casull actually penetrate better with certain loads that were slower with the same bullet. not enough heed is paid to bullets tumbling. that's what's hurt the .458 so much in the linebaugh seminar penetration tests. it tumbled affecting penetration on most shots. same with many large british calibers. it's the bullet type AND the velocity playing a role in penetration. that's why until you get up into the punch bullets many "lesser" calibers in the handgun realm have outpenetrated the .500 smith. the beauty of the garretts is the lower velocity and the fact he doesn't overdo the "hardness" like some others. they deform very very little.

paper ballistics are very misleading. many rifle hunters have no idea how a .44 mag can drop an elk at 50 yards when it doesn't "meet the minimum ft/lbs" some idiot came up with 20 years after the .44 was busy dropping game left and right with not near enough "ft/lbs".

deltecs · « **Reply #104 on:** May 13, 2007, 01:12:58 PM »

Well I'm no ballistics expert, but I have done my homework. No matter what you load in the 45/70, the .458 Win Mag will out perform it when the pressures are kept within acceptable limits of the rifle. IE. Ruger #1. The .458 Win Mag case is much stronger than the 45/70 case and thus will handle pressures better. Extraction will be more positive by a corresponding reduction in possible stuck cases. 300 fps does make a difference in penetration on game. Especially DG. Some calibers even need a reduction in velocity to achieve deeper penetration. The bullet used in these ultra velocity big bores actually tends to tumble and break apart. This is due to manufacturers jacket thickness for the same bore. A bullet cannot do all things at all velocities, so they make the bullets to perform as designed within a certain terminal velocity . If this TERMINAL velocity is not achieved because it is too slow, or it is too high, the bullet will not perform as intended or engineered. I want the bullet to act as it was engineered on DG. I'd use a caliber with a velocity in the mid to high end of the bullets range of operation, in case of a bit longer shot being needed. I'd forget energy, trajectory, and ballistics merits of any other caliber comparisons and concentrate on the one at hand. It has been proven time and time again, that a quality 480-500 gr .458 bullet needs to hit an animal at 2100-2400 fps for ideal performance on the game. If using solids, the same applies for the bullet to travel the straight line path into the vitals or brain without deflection due excessive speed. If you need a vehicle to go to work, a similar Chevrolet works just as well as Ford, both are the necessary means to an end. Why not just use the tried and true calibers or ballistic equal instead of endangering yourself, the PH, or his trackers unnecessarily. This does not make any sense to me. Just because it might work some of the time, might work most of the time, is not reason enough for me not to use a weapon and caliber that works every time.

James B · « **Reply #105 on:** May 13, 2007, 04:11:33 PM »

When Brian Pierce put the Corbon bullet through one cape buffalo and hit a second one and the bullet killed it too, penetrating clear through and being found under the hide on the far side of the second, I knew penetration is something the 45-70 does not lack in any way. How much more does one need than one that will kill two cape buffalo with one shot? That won't make it a DG rifle for some but its plenty for me.

mk454 · « **Reply #106 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:03:45 AM »

james -- point exactly. the 458 needs bullets traveling at a given speed for reason, the bullet tumbling as mentioned above. i sure haven't been present for every shot taken with a 458 but in most of the pics i've seen of recovered solids they've bent and deformed when hitting bone. this mirrors what we've seen at my cousins ranches. i have several cousins running alot of cattle out here in texas and whenever one of them breaks a leg in a prairie dog hole we have had to put it down and get an opportunity to put some rounds through some after they've been dispatched with the ole' .22. what we've seen is that 99% of the long round nosed solids be it from a .375 or a .458 deform and certainly don't exit in a straight line from where they entered. now i know many will start crying out that a 2000+ pound bull or steer isn't the same thing as an elephant or a hippo but i'm feeling pretty sure if it deforms on the cow bones it'll deform at least as bad on the dangerous game bones. WITH THE RIGHT LOAD, i.e. a garrett hammerhead, a corbon penetrator, a grizzly punch bullet, the 45/70 and actually the 444 marlin haven't hardly deformed much at all, and go STRAIGHT ON THROUGH. randy garrett says the ballistic deficiency in the 45/70 is what helps keep the bullet stable and going straight which does nothing but help it penetrate. in fact, and this will get me flamed, but my .454 has actually penetrated as well as anything, it's hard to gauge which round exits the best. the garrett exiter and 540 grain bullets have yet to fail to go end to end. not sure how much more one needs?

JJHACK · « **Reply #107 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:15:08 AM »

If a parachute worked once in a while would you jump with it?

mk454 · « **Reply #108 on:** May 14, 2007, 06:51:32 AM »

as i stated before, show me the examples of failed garretts, punch bullets, buffalo bore and corbons on good shots into the vitals. there's tons of examples of a 458 failing to penetrate adequately, is that the parachute you're talking about. keep in mind i'm not talking about some handloader using the wrong bullet as i'm talking about using the right bullet and load for the job but i've yet to hear of anyone complaining the garretts didn't penetrate well enough on anything. if i'm wrong i'll admit it. if you had the hunters fail with those or even have marginal performance give me the references and i'll check them out and come here and admit i'm wrong. randy and tim were very eager to put me in contact with anyone that they knew had used the ammo on DG, perhaps you would do the same?

mk454 · « **Reply #109 on:** May 14, 2007, 06:54:06 AM »

btw, appears their parachutes opened everytime.

deltecs · « **Reply #110 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:40:03 PM »

I don't know what bullets were used that bent or were deformed in cattle, but a monolithic, Woodleigh steel jacket, and a few other PREMIUM bullets don't. It is not for me to tell anyone what caliber or rifle to use. I stated my opinions and if you don't mind, I'll use the .416 400 gr at 2350-2400fps, .458 500 gr at 2175fps, or .423 400 gr at 2375fps on African DG. I've studied the reasons why PHs use the tried and true calibers for DG. Just because it works once or twice clear through the ribs is not enough for me. Did anyone take an autopsy to determine the bullets path clear through the animal.

mk454 · « **Reply #111 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:59:48 PM »

i certainly don't mind whatever you use and nobody else should either. not saying i'd use my 45/70 either. but not b/c it's not enough gun. and yes i've seen several premiums deform slightly and seen nothing match the straight ahead performance of the garrett exiter bullets and the punch bullets. you could clean em up and shoot em again. it's easy to tell when something goes left or right or deviates up or down. and a cows shoulder is a hell of alot tougher than the "thin" ribs. perhaps the hide not as tough but sizewise several were much larger than a cape buff.

interesting to note the difference in "paths" taken to achieve max penetration b/w handgunners and big bore rifles. sure the rifles have more power but the handgunners are most certainly on to something that's for sure.

mk454 · « **Reply #112 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:04:23 PM »

interesting what TR thought the .405 with softpoints was adequate for, the .375 HH with premium bullets isn't thought of as highly these days.

nomosendero · « **Reply #113 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:06:23 PM »

Quote from: mk454 on May 14, 2007, 06:51:32 AM

as i stated before, show me the examples of failed garretts, punch bullets, buffalo bore and corbons on good shots into the vitals. there's tons of examples of a 458 failing to penetrate adequately, is that the parachute you're talking about. keep in mind i'm not talking about some handloader using the wrong bullet as i'm talking about using the right bullet and load for the job but i've yet to hear of anyone complaining the garretts didn't penetrate well enough on anything. if i'm wrong i'll admit it. if you had the hunters fail with those or even have marginal performance give me the references and i'll check them out and come here and admit i'm wrong. randy and tim were very eager to put me in contact with anyone that they knew had used the ammo on DG, perhaps you would do the same?

Well put !! If anyone knows of a single failure with the punch, I would like to here about it. As far as PH's not knowing of the merits of this new slug,
that would be normal. It has happened with every bullet that has come down the pike at first, no surprises here & I would understand them being cautious with their clients. Looks good to me though.

James B · « **Reply #114 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:17:54 AM »

There is not a cartridge or bullet on the planet that will not, can fail. What works every time does not exist. However the point I am making is that the 45-70 with its best penetrating bullet will penetrate as much or more that ant other 458 round out there. As already said, use what you want and certainly if the same round was every ones cup of tea then it would be the only one out there. In Garrets testing 1600-1900 fps gave the best or most penetration. Penetration is not every thing nor is velocity nor is muzzle energy nor is sectional density and so forth. The 45-70 has proved itself for more years than any of us have been around and may well still be doing it long after none of us are around anymore.

All this said, the 416 Rem Mag is my go to rifle when the going gets really tough. Because of a very bad shoulder, I can no longer shoot the big rifles at will but the mild loads of the old 45-70 are still doable and if need be, I can max it out. Every one here has made some good points and discussion is what this site is all about. Best of hunting to all.

deltecs · « **Reply #115 on:** May 16, 2007, 01:04:13 PM »

Quote from: James B on May 15, 2007, 05:17:54 AM

There is not a cartridge or bullet on the planet that will not, can fail. What works every time does not exist. However the point I am making is that the 45-70 with its best penetrating bullet will penetrate as much or more that ant other 458 round out there.

This is simply amazing. Since both the 45/70 and .458 Win Mag can use the same bullet, the .458 traveling at approximately 250-350fps faster and I read that the 45/70 will penetrate farther. I sure am glad to read this fact, since I too have a bad shoulder and rifles in .30/30 and 30/06. Since the ballistics of the same bullets in the 30-06 are approximately 250-300fps faster, the 30/30 will out penetrate it. Now I don't have to be worried about whether or not the 30/30 will take a 1500# moose in the vitals when hit on an away running angle. It hasn't done that in the past but maybe the moose didn't realize that I was using the 30/30 instead of the 06.

James B · « **Reply #116 on:** May 16, 2007, 04:53:34 PM »

You might go to the garret and Corbon sites for their explanation. I don't recall if identical bullets were used in all the 458 identical in all the rifles tested or not. However with its best bullet, the velocity of the 45-70 was ideal and it penetrated 50 percent more than the Rigby and 30 percent for than the 458 Win Mag. I don't know if this holds true of other calibers with different frontal areas and sectional density or not. In the other post about penetration tests there is more info. Have a good one.

mk454 · « **Reply #117 on:** May 23, 2007, 10:34:35 AM »

deltecs -- what is loaded into the .458 tells you exactly the differential on penetration knowledge. to date it's considered an african cartridge and so is still loaded with some type of expanding pullet or typically a roundnose solid. i am not referring to what could be done, and yes they "could" use the same bullet but loaded as a factory round currently are not. if you loaded the same type of bullet as in the garrett into a .458 at that velocity it has a detrimental effect on bullet stability and form and therefore actually decreases velocity. for example, on my .454 casull, there's a limit to where velocity helps and where it starts to hurt penetration. what is a good velocity for an expandable soft point vs. a hardcast differ remarkably. no one is questioning ft/lbs, no one is questioning whether a .416 rigy with a softpoint will outpenetrate a .45/70 with a softpoint but it's an entirely different "event" when comparing the standard and i might ad "outdated" round nose solid with a flat point large meplat hardcast and that is where i think everyone gets hung up in this argument. a hardcast too hard or too soft is not all that great, however, the correct alloy and hardness is readily available and punch bullets eliminate all conjecture on the subject. a flatpoint does anything but just "zip" through. and anyone that's actually seen what happens when an animal is hit with the proper bullet with the proper meplat with the proper hardness knows this. the wound channels, penetration, and the "smack" on game is more than impressive.

this is why the "lowly big bore" pistols in every linebaugh penetration seminar have equalled the penetration of the largest rifle calibers. now take that same technology and apply it to the large bore rifle calibers and you get a penetration monster. load the beartooth hardcast flat point .600 nitro bullets at around 1500-1800 fps and you get a penetration juggernaut, in fact, better than the "faster" solid loads typically loaded for that caliber.

the 30/30 vs. the .30/06 comparo is once again, "a different event."

deltecs · « **Reply #118 on:** May 23, 2007, 12:05:20 PM »

Quote from: mk454 on May 23, 2007, 10:34:35 AM

deltecs -- what is loaded into the .458 tells you exactly the differential on penetration knowledge. to date it's considered an african cartridge and so is still loaded with some type of expanding pullet or typically a roundnose solid. i am not referring to what could be done, and yes they "could" use the same bullet but loaded as a factory round currently are not.

the 30/30 vs. the .30/06 comparo is once again, "a different event."

Interesting, that the 45/70 loads factory ammo that surpasses the penetration tests of the .458 Win. factory ammo. When you use bullets made for the velocity intended terminal ballistics and handload, the 45/70 will not out penetrate the .458 Win. You use a solid and I'll use a solid. You use an expanding and I'll use an expanding. You hit heavy bone or the honeycombed brain of an elephant and see if the 45/70 will penetrate eneough to reach the brain cavity from an glancing angle. It may be happen, it may not. I'm not going to use a 45/70 or 405 Win on thick skinned DG in Africa. You do whatever you believe you can do and then not when I am around. There is no doubt in my mind, no doubt with all the African thick skinned game hunters Ive talked with at Safari Club International annual meetings, no doubt in Alaskan hunters who I've contacted since this post, and definitely no doubt among PH's in written advice for hunting African DG. Persistence in comparisions like this and using apples versus oranges and justification of the results from one source just isn't going to convince me that the 45/70 is a better game stopper than the .416 Rigby, Rem Mag, and Taylor, .404 Jeffrey, Dakota, .425 Wesley Richards, or any of the mediuim velocity .458 bores as being a better round with deeper penetration.

mk454 · « **Reply #119 on:** May 24, 2007, 04:06:34 AM »

deltecs -- i truly understand your point, i also understand that the garrett, corbon, and buffalo bore loads for penetration are actually loaded down from their top potential b/c it hurts and hinders penetration with the bullets they use. on the AR forums there was listed a ph that carried a .454 fa 83. many wondered why he'd bother but that was the same ph that used it on an elephant charge several years ago and it wasn't a question whether it'd penetrate but what it'd hit when it when clean through the head. now go read about a couple of the lott failures b/c the hornady ammo was driving the bullet a bit too fast. needed a different bullet which hornady is now using, but the point is that the bullets where upsetting on impact and not penetrating straight and giving erratic performance. btw, the elephant skull doesn't offer more resistance than wet newsprint and all the above 45/70 rounds will outpenetrate any solid tried in the rounds you've listed. i realize you're not gonna be convinced and that's fine, but it's really easy to understand once you understand ft/lbs and velocity do not equal penetration.