Author Topic: .45-70 vs. 416 Rigby (Read 38804 times)

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #120 on:** May 24, 2007, 07:06:41 AM »

Wet newspaper doesn't equate to muscle and bone under real life situations either. What you 45-70 guys whom think it is a DGR need to do is quit reading and actually make a safari with one for DG. Fact is most 45-70 user think they really have a DGR just because of bullet diameter....show up at any DG camp and see what the man getting paid to show you some DG to shoot thinks of your 45-70. When he's done laughing he'll offer to let you use the camp rental DGR or send you packing.
The 45-70 is what it is, a short fat case that can't hold enough powder under a 450 - 500 gr bullet cause it is just 2.5" in lenght....no wet newsprint test is going to change that fact. Keep it stateside for shooting blk bear and feral pigs and you'll stay safe.

mk454 · « **Reply #121 on:** May 24, 2007, 07:25:44 PM »

gemsbuck -- you've been given ample opportunity to provide good evidence, documented examples of failures of the garretts and the like, to date you've provided nothing other than the same antiquated argument that it's all about powder capacity and velocity which has been more than proven to be false. the results of penetration into wet newspaper, while certainly not bone, do provide significantly more resistance than hide and muscle and the tests mirror what is seen in real life. vince lupo's ph laughed when he brought his 45/70 out of the case, but after he saw the results, not the powder capacity, the ph wanted his rifle. fast, accurate, and the results spoke for themselves.

by your own reasoning the 460 weatherby should be heads and shoulders above the .458 lott but in real life it sure hasn't been shown to be the case. how could that be, the lott has a pitiful case capacity in comparison. it's because your constant referrals back to velocity and case capacity are only 1 part of the several factors that factor in to penetration.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #122 on:** May 25, 2007, 12:49:09 AM »

Mk please show or tell us ignorant members how many head of Dg you've killed with a 45-70 and I'm not speaking hogs or ANY NA bear. Have you dusted off a few < 200# deer? Maybe a nasty 300 # feral hog? Possibly a 400# black bear? At the very least you killed a few 10' browns in your time with that 45-70.

What do all those have in common...(thin skin)

James B · « **Reply #123 on:** May 26, 2007, 03:59:01 PM »

Its like the AC vs DC current. Which will kill something the most dead? Do you hit an animal with a 20 ton rock or a 25 ton rock? The 416 which I own and the 45-70 which I own will kill any animal on the planet and both have killed every animal n the planet many times as have rifles like the 303 British and certainly the 30-06. Many elephant's have been killed with the 223 as well by poachers. FPS with bullets over 400 grains does not add to the penetrating ability and both rifles in question here have more than enough penetrating ability.

mk454 · « **Reply #124 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:35:45 AM »

jamesb -- thank you for making my point.

gemsbuck -- i think i've got the thick vs. thin skin thing down just fine. why don't you add to the thread by addressing ANY of the points i've hit on any other post previous to this one instead of saying the same worn out thread over and over and over again.

mk454 · « **Reply #125 on:** May 29, 2007, 07:39:50 AM »

perhaps you could make more assinine assumptions about me, though it is easier to do than actually addressing my points about penetration.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #126 on:** May 29, 2007, 06:17:51 PM »

My God, can't this thing just die?

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #127 on:** May 30, 2007, 01:51:21 AM »

Quote from: mk454 on May 29, 2007, 07:35:45 AM

gemsbuck -- i think i've got the thick vs. thin skin thing down just fine. why don't you add to the thread by addressing ANY of the points i've hit on any other post previous to this one instead of saying the same worn out thread over and over and over again.

could it be the same old worn out facts are still the same...still waiting for your in field experiences with the 45-70 as a DGR...a few pics would be nice

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #128 on:** May 30, 2007, 01:56:50 AM »

Quote from: Dusty Miller on May 29, 2007, 06:17:51 PM

My God, can't this thing just die?

It will never die as long as shooters can buy a 45-70 for $500, look at the bullet diameter and claim they have the ultimate DGR. 99.9% of them will never nor have ever shot anything remotely considered DG. But I'm with you let's allow the issue to die. The ignorant will always claim a 45-70 has the metplat to be used regularly to kill an elephant or cape buffalo ...only time they'll quite is AFTER they attempt it. I just hate reading "facts" gleamed from some bullet makers web site as proof!

James B · « **Reply #129 on:** May 30, 2007, 08:40:53 AM »

Been there and done that. Never needed to read Web sites. Now I can let it die. I for one NEVER SAID the 45-70 was the optimum or ideal, just thats its done in every species on the planet and will continue to do so for probably another 100 years or so. By the way, Whats wrong with a rifle that most all shooters can afford? Guess it does not fit in with the snob factor.

Many thanks to Ruger, NEF and Marlin.

mk454 · « **Reply #130 on:** May 31, 2007, 12:47:10 PM »

it's a simple matter of getting references on the hunters that have done that. that is not the question. the real question is why the same old worn out rhetoric each post gemsbuck? issue is dead. 45/70 is plenty, not the ultimate, but sufficient at the least.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #131 on:** May 31, 2007, 01:22:11 PM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK on May 25, 2007, 12:49:09 AM

Mk please show or tell us ignorant members how many head of Dg you've killed with a 45-70 and I'm not speaking hogs or ANY NA bear. Have you dusted off a few < 200# deer? Maybe a nasty 300 # feral hog? Possibly a 400# black bear? At the very least you killed a few 10' browns in your time with that 45-70.

What do all those have in common...(thin skin)

I have to agree with you on a lot of your posts. I own both the 45-70 and the 416 Rigby. If I went on a DG hunt I sure would not choose any of my 45-70's over my 416 Rigby.
Can a 45-70 be used and work, sure it can. But there are a lot better choices out there and most if not all PH's won't take anyone out with a 45-70 for DG.

mk454, you want everyone to give you proof, why not show us your proof? And please answer GEMSBUCK question here. I don't know why this has to be such a big deal

mk454 · « **Reply #132 on:** June 01, 2007, 11:19:53 AM »

i have contacted most of the individuals that have done that. never said I did anything. right now it's a matter affording time for an african safari, now i know several locals here in lubbock that have killed asiatic water buffalo with bows, pistols, and several types of rifles. hunting african game in texas is an easy proposition and it sure is interesting the difference b/w what many of the ranch owners think is adequate here vs. in africa. i guess the animals have kevlar in africa. i don't want some "proof" from gemsbuck. what he implies is that not only would it be a stunt, but that the .45/70 is inadequate. i have simply dug up numerous examples of those that have "been there and done that." i fully realize that the .45/70 does not have the muzzle energy of many of the above listed cartridges but as i've stated, it penetrates plenty, as do several pistol calibers. i have in fact, stated my own results on penetration tests on roughly 20 or so dead cattle and realize fully this is different than live "dangerous game" but it would be highly dishonest to not accept, penetration is penetration.

i have gotten numerous references from the seemingly "evil ammo makers" as gemsbuck implies, and have contacted those individuals so i'm not sure what other "proof" there needs to be.

now redhawk, please show your objectivity and demand proof or instances of "FAILURES" with the cartridges i have listed and demand some proof from gemsbuck of the same! notice, i haven't listed failures with the .458 lott due to the wrong bullet being driven too fast. that would certainly be disingenuous. howver, i due have a free range bison hunt with a 454 casull scheduled for january. now i'm sure that MUST be inadequate. what do i need? a .458 WM at the least?

btw, i am presently trying to contact ph's used by the "been there and done that" crew and will get more info soon, i just humbly request simliar from you as well.

mk454 · « **Reply #133 on:** June 01, 2007, 11:31:21 AM »

go to www.vincelupo.com and take the email, get in touch with someone there, one of the many that has "been there, and done that." see what he says.

btw, one of the bulls shot into was a breeder bull that had broke it's leg in a prairie dog hole. had to be put down. it was some sort of hybrid and estimated (though old and fat) to weigh in near 3000lbs. significantly larger than any cape buff anyone is likely to cross. this was where i was originally humbled when my cousin bet his .45/70 would out penetrate my .416 rigby cz with solids. he won that day.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #134 on:** June 01, 2007, 12:36:10 PM »

mk454, what you fail to realize is, a breeder bull with a broken leg is a lot different than a Cape buffalo charging you at 25 yards. It is obvious you are the expert in the ballistic abilities of all rounds, so I will leave you with all your vast knowledge.

No where did I say a 454 Casull is under gunned for a Bison, but the chances of you getting charged is a lot less than if you were hunting Cape Buffalo. Remember it is not just penetration, but actual stopping power that counts. (Energy Transfer) The 416 Rigby sure has more than the 45-70.

African game is much tougher than North American game, that my friend is a fact.

mk454 · « **Reply #135 on:** June 06, 2007, 10:34:36 AM »

.........and...........despite your condescending tone in the post of being an expert in the ballistics of ALL rounds which i certainly never made the claim, the fact on a charge is whether you can 1) crush the shoulders and stop the buff or other thick skinned game by causing a structural failure or 2) hitting the CNS. that energy transfer you speak of will not do it.

no matter what you think of the man, mark sullivan has an outstanding dvd talking about stopping power, etc. he goes through the video evidence of where he placed the shots on his charges, and proved beyond a shadow of doubt that to stop a charge it's a brain shot, hit the spine or somehow crush the shoulders if you can get two off in time and place them precisely enough on a frontal charge. he also shows an example of a charge where he has his 600 nitro and is backed up by his son and another friend and he plants a solid and a soft point dead in the chest on the buffalo and it does exactly nothing to stop the charge.

is what you need for a charge is penetration ability to get to the brain the spine or crush the shoulders and both the .45/70 and the 416 will do that. and no the .416 won't stop a charge in the chest of a buff due to energy transfer. you can take your condescension straight to the man that made the video and call him a liar as he has "been there and done that".

i have not talked to you or posted anything resembling the derision and smart a$$ comments you've made. i'm done with this nonsense and typically agree with most of what you've posted here over the last several years, however, if disagreement brings that attitude i've got nothing left to say.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #136 on:** June 07, 2007, 02:02:27 AM »

Quote from: mk454 on June 06, 2007, 10:34:36 AM

..... i've got nothing left to say.

Thank goodness for that! "A 3000# breeder bull" and your pals 45-70 out penetrating a CZ 416R with solids....I know you Texans like to spin a yarn but that is a little much even for a Texan to expect anyone to believe!!!!

And another internet "fact" junky bites the dust! Come on back son when you at the very least shot some PG with your 45-70. I can only imagine how that report will read.....1500yard kill with a open sighted 45-70 knocking him right off the horse he was riding...just like the old cowboy yarn of the old west

mk454 · « **Reply #137 on:** June 07, 2007, 09:27:13 AM »

well, YOU GEMSBUCK, know nothing of me, you can call names all you want, but have yet to respond to any point made. and you act this way whenever anyone disagrees on this point with you. you truly are the definition of an internet keyboard jocky that says on the internet things in a tone he'd never use face to face. now you disparage texans on the whole, what a keyboard jock. and i'm plenty old enough and experienced to NOT be called son by you. condescending posts don't win an argument.

mk454 · « **Reply #138 on:** June 07, 2007, 10:01:54 AM »

I shot a 400gr .458 Rem JSP that was designed for use in the 45-70 out of my 458WM @ 1800fps into a bull bison over 2000#. I hit him in the right ham as he was walking away from me..I was shooting for the base of the tail and hit him a few inches to the right of there. It exited out his throat...that was 5 ft of penetration thru muscle and bone with a bullet never meant to be used for that caliber or penetration. I never recovered the bullet as it exited but I'm sure it was little more than a ragged chunk of lead without the jacket.
Now imagine what a premium .458/450gr bullet @ 2100fps is capable of doing.
I've never agreeded much with what JJ posts but he is correct that is one hell'va lot of power, with limited applications anywhere in the world.

who does the above sound like, that almost sounds like something I'd say. oh wait, that was your own post from a while back. so now when a softpoint, out of a .458 at the same velocity a garrett solid hammerhead/45/70 of 420 grains will go, will now penetrate 5ft of buffalo, now you are claiming the garrett isn't suitable for DG, you are now officially double talking out both ends. oh wait, a garrett, a soft point, a .458, all exiting a buffalo is somehow not good enough penetration? cape buff of a smaller weight may a slightly thicker skin, may be more prone to charge, and may fight lions daily, but penetration is penetration.

next up, more of your inconsistency. where you go saying you think the .338 win mag is suitable for cape buff, and now you're saying the .45/70 isn't adequate.

charlatan.

mk454 · « **Reply #139 on:** June 07, 2007, 10:10:32 AM »

Greybeard they come from Hogden's own reloading data. I was born in 1955 and have reloaded for 30yrs. I also own both the calibers I am speaking about. And know that the 9.3x62 is considered illeagle in most Africa for DG where it is .375+.
My point is not if the 338WM is legal but rather can it with good bullets kill a cape buff and do it with authority...the answer based on first hand knowledge is a resounding yes using 250gr Nosler Partitions CT Gold@ 2750fps, 1 shot complete passthru 20 foot tracking job! My father in 1960 used a .308 200gr @2650' in a 30-06 for a two shot kill on a 43" cape buffalo, while his PH used a 458WM on the same outing and later sold it for it's poor performance.
Would I use it on a hippo or elephant surely not but that isn't the topic here. Would I pick a 338WM loaded with anything to Zim. with the sole animals on my license cape buff? surely not I own a Lott for them and later today will own a 416 Rigby as well

author of this quote -- GEMSBUCK

now the .338 with noslers are great but garretts/buffalo bore/grizzly punch bullets arent'?

i guess it's fine to dig your heels in on an issue on point of ego/pride rather than on basis of facts, just at least do so on the same side of the issue and you'll retain more credibility.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #140 on:** June 08, 2007, 12:53:07 AM »

I thought you went away, could it be you once more skirted what you said previously?
Yes a 338WM will kill a cape buffalo as will a 45-70 but neither are intended for such work. And the buffalo you quoted me on was a dullard bison...a long way from a cape buffalo. Do you even know what they both look like....oh yes from internet pictures.
I once more suggest if you wish to be taken seriously post some pictures of yourself with a cape buffalo lying at your feet.

mk454 · « **Reply #141 on:** June 08, 2007, 06:22:36 AM »

well aware of what bison are funny man, and i'm sure you're aware 5ft of pen. is 5 ft of penetration. i don't care a whit how many cape buffs you've killed. you've used the same condescending tone with PH's on this forum.

now address your doubletalk. you never come back and post dealing with anything of substance. wouldn't matter how many buff i've shot of any type, it'd never be enough, you've argued with PH's here and claimed they didn't have enough experience!

you're an internet keyboard jockey that won't be taken seriously b/c anyone on this board can go back, look at your posts, and see your contradictary posts, see your poor attitude and argumentative nature indicitative of someone that is a smart mouth from behind a keyboard. probably scared of your own shadow.

btw, i don't have to go anywhere, i've been here longer than you have.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #142 on:** June 08, 2007, 07:47:03 AM »

Quote from: mk454 on June 08, 2007, 06:22:36 AM

btw, i don't have to go anywhere, i've been here longer than you have.

You sound more and more like a Jr high 13 yr old on the playground!
Why not take that PH aside an ask him how many and when was the last buffalo hunter he had as a client?

.
You know on second thought I don't see the harm in letting you think a 45-70 is a DGR. A big bore yes but so is a 41 mag, 44 mag and 45 Colt, you might wish to get one of those calibers in a long gun and call that "your stopper". Let Mark Sullivan's film crew cut it on a DVD for you and he may offer you a partnership!!!

mk454 · « **Reply #143 on:** June 08, 2007, 02:41:17 PM »

still avoiding posting anything of substance? sure you are, keep in the insults coming and your credibility lowers all the time.

got any vids of you stopping a buff charge?

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #144 on:** September 16, 2007, 04:33:00 PM »

I just have two questions for the people down playing the 45/70.

One have you ever done it, with the right bullet. 700 grn hard cast.

And i want to know if the ph's on here allow for pistol hunters if I am willing to pay 15,000 for a hunt.

JJHACK · « **Reply #145 on:** September 17, 2007, 03:49:24 AM »

You can hunt Buffalo with me and use anything you like, handgun, archery, rifle, muzzleloader, you pick and we hunt! I had two hunters in 2007 hunt buffalo with black powder both killed nice bulls. Let me know, I'm booking for 2008 and the season is close to filled now. I have only space from Mid June on now.

opatriot · « **Reply #146 on:** January 10, 2008, 09:40:10 AM »

WOW .. HOT TOPIC ....... I think there is sorta a romance thing that goes on with the 45-70 ......I have thoughts of the good old days out west when im shooting my old lever gun .... back when men where able to move freely and homestead if they chose ......... when grisley bears and bison roamed free ....... As far as an African game hunting round .. I dont know .. ?? I have seen wrightups of guys hunting in africa with there 44 mag. pistols ........ soooo I dont know .... ?? I would like to think so though ........... kind regards .......... davey

Xyzzy · « **Reply #147 on:** February 11, 2008, 08:22:42 PM »

It boggles my mind that this discussion has been going on for ~5 years now. Even more difficult to believe is that I'm adding to it now.

One thing that's been alluded to that I feel needs clear and direct restatement is:
- compressed loads + hot climate = bad. Sometimes very, very bad.

Pressure can become unpredictable, resulting in unsafe conditions, extraction failures and powder clumping (causing the round to underperform). Perhaps there are exceptions, but I'd steer clear of it anywhere that gets hot. For these reasons, I'd think any sane comparison should exclude "overfull" cases whenever Africa is concerned, no matter what the cartridge.

Allow me a brief aside...
My father, while in the U.S. Air Force in the 1960's, during his very limited free time, built a custom .243 from a mauser action. Hand carved, oil rubbed stock. Match trigger and barrel. The first gun he ever built, a beautiful piece and a tack driver to boot. Fast forward to 1981 and he gives it to me as my 21st birthday present.

I love my .243, and no, love is not too strong a word. I would not trade it for a Ferrari with a Purdey in the trunk.
It has served me quite well over the years (its semi-retired now), however, it is not (objectively)
- the most powerful or accurate gun ever made (or that he's made)
- the most exquisitely checkered
- the most anything for that matter
Like all things in this world, you can always find better.
None of these facts diminish the nostalgia. Nor does the nostalgia alter the facts.

Graybeard · « **Reply #148 on:** February 12, 2008, 04:47:25 AM »

You seem to be confusing a full case or compressed load with high pressure. The two have no direct correlation. It is high pressures and especially the use of powders that tend to increase pressures in high temperatures that you should be concerned with and to which I think you are alluding but use the term full case and compressed loads instead. The two are not the same.

efremtags · « **Reply #149 on:** February 18, 2008, 08:16:49 AM »

I am sure I will take a lot of heat for this post......

Lets start with some facts:

1) The 416 Rigby has more KE potential in comparable rifles when loaded to its potential than a 45/70
2) The 416 Rigby has more history on African game than a 45/70
3) The 45/70 is capable of killing any animal in the world with factory available +p loads
4) The 45/70 solid WFN will out penetrate a 416Rigby softpoint
5) Penetration is not the absolute factor of killing power, but a large part of it

That said, popularity of one vs the other has more to do with geography and history than killing power. Africa was primarily colonized by the British, so it is logical that British arms manufacturers have more long term presence on the continent. The same holds true in the US, where the famed buffalo hunters used 45/70 not .375 or 416 to hunt with.

There is a lot of comparison regarding penetration tests. This can be skewed greatly, comparing mismatched ammo and coming up with wild results. of course a WFN will penetrate at medium velocity compared to a softpoint, but compare wound channels and you will see that there is more to it.

Whats is fact, that animals are killed by massive tissue damage. To do this 2 things must happen, the bullet must reach the vitals then damage them. This has more to do with impact energy and bullet shape/construction than mere penetration alone.

A 416 or 375 with good softpoints are more apt generate this damage than a 45/70 WFN. However on a front brain shot of an elephant, a 45/70 540gr will likely perform better than a 416 soft point or maybe even a FMJ round nose because penetration and shape dictate so.

I would definitely hunt Africa with a 45/70, but would not tout one as a stopper or backup gun for the simple fact that penetration may be good, but stopping power may be lacking at more than point blank range.

The nitro expresses (470 - 500) are popular because they blend moderate velocity (2000 - 2200FPS) with big diameter heavy bullets (500gr +). The 45/70 is falls exactly at 2/3rd the power of these rounds in many respects. Lets compare:

540GR at 1550FPS 45/70 appx 2900FT Lbs
510GR at 2150FPS 470 appx 5000 Ft lbs

Velocity is about 72% (slightly above 2/3rd)
KE is about 58% (slightly below 2/3rd)

420GR at 1800FPS 45/70 appx 3200FT Lbs
510GR at 2150FPS 470 appx 5000 Ft lbs

Velocity is about 83% (at above2/3rd)
KE is about 64% ( at 2/3rd)
bullet weight at 82% (above 2/3rd)

This is a good apples to apples comparison as both are intended for use with solids at their best .A 416 is better with soft points and has too many dynamics to make direct comparison easy.