Not a sgl Christian Church left in Afghanistan.

[powderman]

Not a Single Christian Church Left in Afghanistan, Says State Department       By Edwin Mora October 10, 2011 Subscribe to Edwin Mora's posts       
  (AP Photo.) (CNSNews.com) -- There is not a single, public Christian church left in Afghanistan, according to the U.S. State Department.
This reflects the state of religious freedom in that country ten years after the United States first invaded it and overthrew its Islamist Taliban regime.
In the intervening decade, U.S. taxpayers have spent $440 billion to support Afghanistan's new government and more than 1,700 U.S. military personnel have died serving in that country.
The last public Christian church in Afghanistan was razed in March 2010, according to the State Department's latest International Religious Freedom Report. The report, which was released last month and covers the period of July 1, 2010 through December 31, 2010, also states that “there were no Christian schools in the country.”
“There is no longer a public Christian church; the courts have not upheld the church's claim to its 99-year lease, and the landowner destroyed the building in March [2010],” reads the State Department report on religious freedom. “[Private] chapels and churches for the international community of various faiths are located on several military bases, PRTs [Provincial Reconstruction Teams], and at the Italian embassy. Some citizens who converted to Christianity as refugees have returned.”
In recent times, freedom of religion has declined in Afghanistan, according to the State Department.
“The government’s level of respect for religious freedom in law and in practice declined during the reporting period, particularly for Christian groups and individuals,” reads the State Department report.
“Negative societal opinions and suspicion of Christian activities led to targeting of Christian groups and individuals, including Muslim converts to Christianity," said the report. "The lack of government responsiveness and protection for these groups and individuals contributed to the deterioration of religious freedom.”
Most Christians in the country refuse to “state their beliefs or gather openly to worship,” said the State Department.
More than 1,700 U.S. military personnel have died serving in the decade-old Afghanistan war, according to CNSNews.com’s database of all U.S. casualties in Afghanistan. A September audit released jointly by the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction and the State Department’s Office of Inspector General, found that the U.S. government will spend at least $1.7 billion to support the civilian effort from 2009-2011.
According to that report, the $1.7 billion excludes additional security costs, which the report says the State Department priced at about $491 million.
A March 2011 report by the Congressional Research Service showed that overall the United States has spent more than $440 billion in the Afghanistan war. Christian aid from the international community has also gone to aid the Afghan government.
Nevertheless, according to the State Department, the lack of non-Muslim religious centers in Afghanistan can be blamed in part on a “strapped government budget,” which is primarily fueled by the U.S. aid.
“There were no explicit restrictions for religious minority groups to establish places of worship and training of clergy to serve their communities,” says the report, “however, very few public places of worship exist for minorities due to a strapped government budget.”
The report acknowledged that Afghanistan’s post-Taliban constitution, which was ratified with the help of U.S. mediation in 2004, can be contradictory when it comes to the free exercise of religion.
While the new constitution states that Islam is the “religion of the state” and that “no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam,” it also proclaims that “followers of other religions are free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites within the limits of the provisions of the law.”
However, “the right to change one’s religion was not respected either in law or in practice,” according to the State Department.
“Muslims who converted away from Islam risked losing their marriages, rejection from their families and villages, and loss of jobs,” according to the report. “Legal aid for imprisoned converts away from Islam remains difficult due to the personal objection of Afghan lawyers to defend apostates.”
  In this image made available from the Afghanistan Presidential Palace, Afghan President Hamid Karzai, center, shakes hand with new U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan Ryan Crocker at the Presidential Palace in Kabul, Afghanistan on Monday, July 25, 2011. (AP Photo/Presidential Palace) The report does note that “in recent years neither the national nor local authorities have imposed criminal penalties on coverts from Islam.” The report says that “conversion from Islam is considered apostasy and is punishable by death under some interpretations of Islamic rule in the country.”
Also, in recent years, the death punishment for blasphemy “has not been carried out,” according to the State Department.
According to the State Department report, the United States continues to promote religious freedom in Afghanistan--even though the country no longer has even one Christian church.
“The U.S. government regularly discusses religious freedom with government officials as part of its overall policy to promote human rights,” according to the report.
According to the State Department report, more than 99 percent of the population, estimated between 24 and 33 million people, is either Sunni (80 percent) or Shia (19 percent) Muslim. Non-Muslim religious groups, including the estimated 500 to 8,000 strong Christian community in the country, make up less than 1 percent of the population. Other non-Muslim groups in the country are Sikhs, Bahais, and Hindus.

       More peace, love, and tolerance from the you know whats. POWDERMAN. 

[BUGEYE]

after much thought, I think we should pull out of there and iraq and let them go back to killing each other. we've lost too many good men/women.
I wonder where the last Christian Church will be in this country ?

[powderman]

BUGEYE. You can bet it won't be in Cali or Wash DC. POWDERMAN. 

[SwampThing762]

Yup, that is Muslim tolerance.   Hope the apologists here take notice.  That is your future if they ever get a true foothold here in America.

ST762

[mdwest]

I have spent a considerable amount of time in Afghanistan.. most of it in Kabul and Bagram.. but have also spent time out west in Herat province, down south near Kandahar, east around Jalalabad, and in central Afghanistan tooling around in Logar.. I started going to Afghanistan in 2004, spent most of 2007 there, and then made frequent trips back in 2008, 2009, and made one trip in 2010 (I have not traveled there this year).
 
Depending on where you are in the country.. Afghans can actually be fairly tolorant people.. The Tajiks for example (predominantly in the north) pretty much dont trust anyone.. and simply want to be left alone.. As long as you arent screwing with them.. they could care less about what you do.. as a general rule they are FIERCELY opposed to the Taliban.. hate AlQ and all Arabs.. and very appreciative of what the US has done.. I imagine you could build all the Christian churches you want in the Panshir valley (where the Tajiks live) and no one would care.. you just wouldnt have anyone show up for Sunday services.. they are all Muslim.. and for the most part have no interest in our religious beliefs..
 
The Pastun (predominantly in the east and the south.. but they are the majority of the population and are all over the country) on the other hand are a mixed lot.. the Taliban are Pastun.. Pastuns are also the predominant tribe/group in Pakistan all along the Afghan border.. there are some Pastun are employed by US firms (to include the US military).. that are not only trustworthy, but are somewhat "westernised" after a 10 year presence of US troops.. they wear western clothes, like western food, watch western TV, speak decent english, etc..
 
that said.. the Pastun are also the group that as a whole is the most intolorant of the west.. this is where most of the "fundamentalists" come from.. this is where the Taliban come from.. etc.. if you build a church in Pastun areas.. expect it to be burned to the ground.. the question is not a matter of IF.. it is a matter of WHEN..
 
There are other tribes/groups in Afghanistan as well.. with varying degrees of tolorance/intolorance...
 
It is also important to understand that often, acts of violence in Afghanistan have little or nothing to do with religion (although religion is often a convienient excuse or cover up).. many (most) acts of violence against groups other than the miliary are about drugs and/or money..
 
screw with the opium trade in any way (to include telling someone it is religiously wrong to grow, process, or use drugs).. and you are going to get a visit from some very angry afghans..
 
MOST Afghans are not nearly as religiously motivated as you might think.. like many "Christians" in the US that go to church every Sunday, but dont really practice what they claim to believe (its more of a show than it is a way of life..).. MOST Afghans go to "church".. but really are not hard core "believers"..
 
for that matter, a large number of "Taliban" arent associated with that group because of their religious fundamentalism or beliefs so much as it is about empowerment and protection for their other endeavors (drug trade and other criminal acts)..
 
I can assure you that religious differences between the Afghan people and the west are only one of many issues.. Their views on society, law, right vs. wrong, etc.. are completely different in many areas as well..
 
If anyone expected a 2000+ year old culture to change in 10 years and become totally accepting that "our" way is the "right" way of doing things (whether we are talking religion, values, laws, or even how to wipe your butt after a bowel movement (yes.. they do this differently...)).. you were sadly mistaken..
 
Give them another 10 years of exposure to everything they consider "bad" about the west (ipods, monster trucks, fast food,the internet, etc).. and we'll have them "conquered"...
 
it wont be a military operation or the building of baptist churches that does it though.. (although having the military on the ground brings in the ipods, ford trucks, burger king, and DSL connections..that will ultimately "convert" them to our way of thinking...)....
 
they have to WANT what we have to offer first.. then they MIGHT be open to other things western (like religious tolorance)..
 
they dont WANT the Bible.. any more than you want the Koran right now..
 
some of them are addicted to Katy Perry and Ozzy Osbourne though.. by next year even more will be having midnight cravings for quarter pounders with cheese and greasy french fries...
 
progress is being made...   
 

[SwampThing762]

mdwest,

Thank you for your service to your country, and your incredible level of commitment based on your time spent in a war zone.

Your post is informative, coming from a first-person point of view who dealt with different groups of Islamic adherents.   I will confess that my experience is somewhat different.  I do know some Muslims who are very kind people, but there are many more that act very differently towards non-believers than fellow Muslims. 

My opinion is also formed by the fact that Muslims perpetrate the greatest number of terrorist attacks in the name of Allah, claiming that all of the dead people are non-believers.   The Koran also states that conquered non-believers must convert to Islam or be put to the sword.   

Based upon these perceptions, I will admit I do not hold the religion of Islam in high regard.  Frankly, my opinion of Islam is the same  as the Islamic position towards Christianity and Judaism.   

I can only hope, and pray, that the Muslim world will, over time, come to the realization that they must cultivate peaceful co-habitation with people of other faiths.

ST762

[BBF]

Swamp thing:
Your  second to last sentence wraps it up IMO. The Muslims want to have Christian teaching, values and Churches in their land just as much as some here would like Sharia Law, Mosques and the Koran in this country.

[mdwest]

no need to thank me for my service.. I did serve.. but it was a long time ago (got out in the mid 90's).. all of my trips to the land of the unbathen goat herders has been for the private sector (although in support of the Department of Defense and State Department)..
 
Honestly, I think that is what has given me a different a deeper and more relevant perspective though than the average soldier that goes over and stays on the FOB/Camp other than to go out on an occasional patrol.. I've actually had to go out and "live among them" to a certain degree.. had several Afghans work directly for me over the years, etc.. Ive been to their homes, eaten meals with their families, etc...
 
Dont get me wrong.. Islam as it is practiced by extremists and fundamentalists has no place in my world.. I think at its core Islam is a faulty religion that can be manipulated to encourage violence and intolorance (of course almost every major religion in the world has at one time or another been used to manipulate people into violence for ill gotten gain)..
 
I have read quite a bit of the Koran.. I have had very lengthy discussions about Islam with both Sunni's and Shi's.. with muslim arabs, muslim persians, muslim asians, and muslim africans.. and think I have a pretty decent handle on what their "book" teaches, what some Imans teach, what the "average" muslim (if there is such a thing) believes, etc..
 
What I have found is that Islam is even more varied and fragmented than Christianity is.. if you think there are fundamental differences between the different groups that call themselves Christians (Catholics, Prodestants, Amish, Coptic, Mormons, etc..etc..) you should look at Islam.. its far worse.. they cant agree on much of anything from sect to sect, country to country, culture to culture, or people to people.. What one mosque teaches.. another one might totally refute.. depending on which sect it belongs to, what country it is in, who the Iman is, who the audience is, etc.. globally, they are seriously confused if you try to lump them all into one group rather than separate them into distinct sets like we do with all the groups that call themselves "Christian"..
 
And then you have to factor in.. that like Christianity.. where most people that claim they have a belief, but really dont practice those beliefs.. Islam is much the same.. culturally people living in Muslim countries pretty much have to claim to believe.. and go through the motions of being a believer.. but the vast majority of them are not truely practicing muslims or even close to being radicalized.. they are like most other humans.. they want to have a job, make some money, live with their families, and for the most part be left alone.. they know what their Iman SAYS.. and they know what the Koran commands them to do.. but their willingness to actually follow through (like most "Christians") is typically pretty poor..
 
all that said.. again, I think the religion makes it pretty easy to manipulate people to violence and intolorance when you combine what their book says, what their Imans preach, and the social and economic inequalities found in most Muslim countries..
 
when someone has nothing.. presenting the argument that "this is the way to obtain "something"" (whether that "something" is money, salvation, fame, or even simple praise) can have certain appeal..
 
the real problem (In my opinion) is there are a ton of very poor, uneducated, and very desperate people in this world.. and they are very easily manipulated.. I dont think they are born "bad".. and I dont think Islam by itself makes them "bad".. but desperate people do desperate things and bad people have learned to manipulate others that would otherwise be "good" through the use of Islam.. The religion is used as a tool..
 
Most mulsims have a very different way of thinking about things than we do.. but then again.. so do the Japanese.. so do the Chinese.. etc.. we are a very curious people to most Asians.. but for the most part these differences offer little threat or no cause for alarm..
 
that said.. until the Muslim world figures out how to fix their political, economic, and social problems.. radicalization is going to continue to be a problem.. and has to be something we (the west) have to defend against and protect ourselves from.. if that means we take an aggressive approach and erradicate them from the earth.. then so be it.. if "talking" to them makes things better.. Im good with that too.. there is no one answer.. every region, sect, group, etc.. requires a different response..
 
and until we (the west) learn to put our foot down and demand that if you want to come to our countries that you need to adopt our practices and culture as opposed to trying to usurp it with your own.. we will continue to discuss things like Sharia law in the US, etc.. (how many schools in Texas are using Spanish as the primary language for teaching now instead of English? Muslims arent the only people trying to push their culture on us or refusing to accept ours.. we are pretty much weak across the board when it comes to this type of thing...)
 
sorry for the LONG response.. (felt like I was writing "War and Peace" here).. just something I thought I had a little personal insight on to offer..
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

I live in Tennessee...
 
guess what is less than 5 miles from my house.. and is THRIVING..
 
a Sunni Mosque..
 
there are NUMEROUS mosques in Tennessee and Kentucky.. in both the major cities, and in the smaller cities as well...
 
 
Dont fool yourself.. our presence in Afghanistan has very little to do with the Afghans.. they are one of the poorest countries on earth.. landlocked.. no deep water ports.. very few airports capable of handling large aircraft.. no real valuable exports (to include its people).. etc.. there is almost nothing there that attracts the chinese other than strategic positioning.. they have made very little effort to enter the country.. most of the major governmental investments outside of the US and NATO have been from Pakistan and a little bit from India..
 
There are multiple globally strategic reasons for being there however..
 
because it is largely lawless (and has been forever).. it is a place that has previously been a safe haven for people that do have the economic and physical means of being a threat to our country to "hang out"..
 
also.. look at a map...
 
most people would tell you that Iran is the single greatest threat to the US..
 
what is on the left side of Iran? what is on the right side of Iran?

we are "pulling out" of Iraq this year.. but coincidentally leaving logistics personnel and other support units in place.. and keeping military personnel at 3 places where the airfields can support C17's and C5's.. (rapid mobilization of US troops back into theater if necessary)..
 
the draw down plan in Afghanistan still leaves troops at Bagram, Jalalabad, and Kandahar when everything is "over".. again.. all have major airfields capable of handling large numbers of large aircraft and are easily defensible..
 
Leaving troops in Afghanistan also leaves "eyes" on Pakistan, a nuclear nation with deep ties to extremism and terrorism..
 

Being in Afghanistan has nothing to do with the Afghans anymore.. and it has very little to do with AlQ and OBL anymore either..
 
The real fight with AlQ is now in Africa and the Arabian peninsula.. once they are wiped out there.. it will move again.. (hopefully not back to Afghanistan).. most of the "fighting" in Afghanistan is either with Taliban and/or bandits/criminals..
 
 
 
 

[mdwest]

I should add that I actually agree with you TM7 (although my response may not sound like it) in some places..
 
I dont think we will see a "lawful" afghanistan in our lifetime.. they arent ready.. and dont want it.. those who think this is an objective (there are some within the US government) need to spend more time there.. it aint going to happen..
 
I also think we should scale down our presence substantially.. quickly..
 
 

[mdwest]

there will always be "exceptions" to any rule.. within the first couple of years after 9/11 there were a range of attacks on various mosques throughout the Southeast... everything from vandalism to an actual burning..
 
but I have also seen a real change in "acceptance" if Muslim culture in the southeast over the past 6-8 years..
 
I have yet to see a full blown Burkha anywhere in the south other than at Disney.. but I see women in head scarves, wearing traditional arab clothing, etc.. all the time.. you would have never seen that in the 1990's (at least not with the frequency).. I see persian and arab resturants in most of the major cities.. and "white" people frequenting them.. hookah bars.. etc..
 
The "American" culture is going away... small piece by small piece..
 
and being replaced with Mexican culture, European socialism, Muslim traditions, etc..etc..
 
I'd say we have become incredibly tolorant (to the point of fault) of everyone.. and have little interest as a country of retaining our own values anymore (sadly)..
 
Hopefully we will one day learn that tolorating others doesnt mean you have to give up your own values in the process...
 
 

[powderman]

until we (the west) learn to put our foot down and demand that if you want to come to our countries that you need to adopt our practices and culture as opposed to trying to usurp it with your own.. we will continue to discuss things like Sharia law in the US, etc.. (how many schools in Texas are using Spanish as the primary language for teaching now instead of English? Muslims arent the only people trying to push their culture on us or refusing to accept ours.. we are pretty much weak across the board when it comes to this type of thing...)

 
MDWEST. That pretty well says it. POWDERMAN. 

[mdwest]

I would not dismiss the drug connections...Ever read Dope, INC...?
 
Iran is now flanked and surrounded by NATO forces...
 
 
>>TM7

I havent read Dope, Inc.. but I will look into..
 
I agree with you on the drug connections.. they shouldnt be dismissed at all..

[nw_hunter]

there will always be "exceptions" to any rule.. within the first couple of years after 9/11 there were a range of attacks on various mosques throughout the Southeast... everything from vandalism to an actual burning..
 
but I have also seen a real change in "acceptance" if Muslim culture in the southeast over the past 6-8 years..
 
I have yet to see a full blown Burkha anywhere in the south other than at Disney.. but I see women in head scarves, wearing traditional arab clothing, etc.. all the time.. you would have never seen that in the 1990's (at least not with the frequency).. I see persian and arab resturants in most of the major cities.. and "white" people frequenting them.. hookah bars.. etc..
 
The "American" culture is going away... small piece by small piece..
 
and being replaced with Mexican culture, European socialism, Muslim traditions, etc..etc..
 
I'd say we have become incredibly tolorant (to the point of fault) of everyone.. and have little interest as a country of retaining our own values anymore (sadly)..
 ************************************************************************
Hopefully we will one day learn that tolorating others doesnt mean you have to give up your own values in the process...

*****************************************************************************


Good point! We need to take a lesson from the wild kingdom! Birds of a feather flock together, but for the most part they get along with the other species. Lord help them if they ever form a government

[SwampThing762]

I live in Tennessee...
 
guess what is less than 5 miles from my house.. and is THRIVING..
 
a Sunni Mosque..
 
there are NUMEROUS mosques in Tennessee and Kentucky.. in both the major cities, and in the smaller cities as well..
 
Good, I was talking tongue-in-cheek, btw....but I think there has been some mosque burnings in those two states..Mufresburg comes to mind.  Also, pretty Bible Belt...not too tolerant of moslems...would you say...? But of course, I think there use to be some chruch burnings, too.,...black churches.


Muslims have been killing other Muslims and non-Muslims since the days of Mohammed, and is a religiously based campaign of genocide, and then building their victory mosques on the consecrated sites of other peoples.  The killing of blacks and burning of black churches was simply a hate-based crime.   Both are wrong.

Dope, Inc?  Sounds like a cheap version of the French Connection.    Nonetheless, the drug lords must have means to clean their money.  Generally speaking, it is easier to clean the money through legitimate businesses, even if it takes a little longer.   Wall Street is the last place I would put drug money as the stock market is so fickle.   Anywho, money laundering is all the same when you get down to it.

ST762   

[yellowtail3]

Informative posts, mdwest... thanks...