Why America Should Spread the Wealth

[crustylicious]

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2011/10/11/Tax-Those-Who-Ruined-the-Economy-Its-Only-Fair.aspx#page1
 
 Many economists worry that making societies more equal through income redistribution or other means lowers economic growth. This “big tradeoff” between equality and efficiency, which is supported by comparisons of capitalist and socialist countries, implies that there is a limit to how much redistribution a society should pursue. At some point the tradeoff of more equality for less output – which worsens as we push toward more and more equality – becomes intolerable. However, while the tradeoff is quite unfavorable as we push to extremes, recent experience suggests there is a wide region where the tradeoff is hard to detect. Thus, worries about this tradeoff appear to be overblown.
 
For example, the Bush tax cuts were justified, in part, by the claim that equity had overshadowed efficiency in tax policy decisions. Taxes on the wealthy and the inefficiencies that come with them were much too high, it was argued, and lowering taxes would cause output to go up enough to lift all boats substantially. Accordingly, the lower end of the income distribution would fare much better after income trickled down than it would under redistributive policy.
 

There’s little evidence
that the Bush tax cuts
had any effect at all.

The economy did grow after the Bush tax cuts, but the rate of growth was unremarkable, especially for jobs, and there’s little evidence that they caused large increases in output growth as promised. In fact, there’s little evidence that the Bush tax cuts had any effect at all. The tradeoff simply wasn’t there.
 
And the tax cuts at the upper end of the income distribution did nothing to correct for the fact that although worker productivity was rising, wages remained flat – a problem that began in the mid 1970s. This was an indication that something was amiss in the mechanism that distributes income to different members of society. Workers were helping to increase the size of the pie, but income did not trickle down as promised and their share of the pie was no larger than before.
 
This is not the only way in which the distribution of income has become disconnected from productivity. While some argue that those at the top of the income distribution earn every cent they receive, and hence deserve to keep all of it, there is plenty of evidence that the compensation of financial executives, CEOs of major corporations, and others at the top of the pyramid exceeds the value of what they contribute to society by a considerable margin. That holds true even without the financial crisis, but how, exactly, can we justify the extraordinarily high income of this group when the result of their actions was to ruin the economy?
 
If those at the top of the income distribution receive far more than the value of what they create, and those at lower income levels receive less, then one way to correct this, at least in part, is to increase taxes at the upper end of the income distribution and use the proceeds to protect important social programs that benefit working-class households, programs that are currently threatened by budget deficits. This would help to rectify the mal-distribution of income that is preventing workers from realizing their share of the gains from economic growth.
 
And there is another reason why taxes on the wealthy should go up. Someone has to pay taxes, and the question is how to distribute the burden among taxpayers. Many believe, and I am one of them, that progressive taxes are the most equitable way to do this. In particular, the guiding principle is that last dollar of taxes paid should cause the same amount of sacrifice for rich and poor alike.
 
There has been an attempt to make it appear that taxes are mostly paid by the wealthy, e.g. the deceptive claim that half the people pay no taxes is part of this. But taxes are less progressive than before the Bush tax cuts, and when all taxes at all levels of government are taken into account “the U.S. tax system just barely qualifies as progressive.”
 
We face a choice between cutting key benefits for the middle class and creating an ever more unequal society, or raising taxes on the wealthy to preserve the social programs that lower-income households rely upon. We hear that raising taxes is unfair and that tax increases will harm economic growth. But there’s nothing unfair about correcting the mal-distribution of income that we’ve seen in recent decades, or about making sure the burden from paying taxes is more equitable than it is now. And there’s no reason to fear that economic growth will be lower if taxes are increased. Cutting taxes on the wealthy during the Bush years didn’t stimulate growth and raising taxes back to the levels we’ve had in the past – times when growth was quite robust – won’t have much of an effect either.
 
The claim that there is a tradeoff between equity and efficiency was a key part of the argument for tax cuts for the wealthy, but the tradeoff didn’t materialize. We sacrificed equity for the false promise of efficiency and growth, and society is now more unequal than at any time since the early part of the last century. It’s time to reverse that mistake.

[subdjoe]

You start, Crusty.  Send me your car and a laptop. 

[nomosendero]

You start, Crusty.  Send me your car and a laptop.

Indeed
 
That will happen the same day that Warren Buffett will write a check for those extra taxes he wants to pay.

[streak]

You start, Crusty.  Send me your car and a laptop.

Indeed
 
That will happen the same day that Warren Buffett will write a check for those extra taxes he wants to pay.

Yeah Crusty!
And while your at it go ahead an open up up your bank account to all of these illegal immmigrants( most who do not pay taxes) and that should really start to equalize the economic system!!

[ironglow]

  How much of your property have you already given to those who refuse to work Crusty ?

[mechanic]

Why wait on the government.  You have a gun.  You have banks.  Go get whats yours.  No different than the government stealing it, and probably more efficient.  In direct theft, you don't have millions of middle men, (government employees) siphoning it off.
 
For the life of me, I can't understand why people want to take the MOST prosperous country in the world and turn it into a third world nation, but apparently many do, and have about achieved their wish.  Our poor people would be the envy of most nations.
 
Hope you enjoy your nirvana when we crash our economic system completely.
 
 

[ironglow]

  Crusty;
  How many hours of wages per week, are you willing to give to the guy who would rather stay home and smoke dope ?

[Cabin4]

We already have wealth redistribution going on now. And look what we have to show for it.....

[SwampThing762]

Crusty,

Since you are feeling so charitable, please send me your big-screen television and living room furniture set.

ST762

[Buck-Ridge]

Unbelievable how so many words can make so little sense.

[crustylicious]

Unbelievable how so many words can make so little sense.

No kidding, you'd think that before making such ridiculous responses they would actually read the article, let alone comprehend. 

[ironglow]

  Hey guys; nobody mentioned Crusty's guns...so do I get "first dibs" on them ?

[Shu]

I read the article, the problem I have with this are the constant references to wealth redistribution and equality.
The taking of some one elses wealth and giving it to those who don't have it. Ok why don't we have the same wealth as others. Well some work smarter and were more successful. We should punish them for being succesful. Something about that just seems wrong.
 
Equality- well you are equal regardless of race, religion, sex or political affiliation. You have the equal right to earn as much as you can. You do not have the right to sit around smoke dope, beat your wife and demand those who work hard to give you thier income.
 
I am just not seeing how punishing the successful brings about equality or any other warm and fuzzy goodness to society. "The Bush tax cuts did not help society" line is getting rather old. Shall I go down the street and ask the man on welfare for a job? Who would you rather ask for a job A) the guy on welfare  B) The guy with a 100 million dollar business
 
"The top of the pyramid wealthy do nothing for society" "many CEO's make far more than they are worth" well those lines sure are good. They allow the government to control salaries and wages. Do you really want to have a business and have the government tell you how much you can make?
 
Punishing success and rewarding laziness is never the right answer look at what our school system is doing. It is on the decline, ever wonder why? Simple the harder working kids are made to be "equal" to the lazier kids. We are reaping the rewards of this aren't we.
 

[BUGEYE]

cutting taxes, by itself, does not help anything.  we need to create a business friendly ATMOSPHERE.
conservatives can cut taxes, but the business community knows that the next administration can undo everything.  it will take BOTH parties to ever bring back prosperity. as long as there are liberals with their give-away programs, NOTHING will get done. prepare for communism.

[BBF]

If the Socialist/Communists win it will be interesting to see how long the welfare bums are getting their cheque, food stamps and dope.

[Cabin4]

We already have wealth redistribution going on now. And look what we have to show for it.....

.
 
 
Wealth redistribution began with the Bolshevik Revolution of America in 1913 quietly and stealthly installed, concurrently with the Bolshevikism installed in another great Christian nation, Russia. Of course, the Russians didn't succumb so peacefully to this satanic and psychopathic cult as Americans did. The is Bolshevik Revolution intalled the central bank, The Fed, and a system of central control known as 'fractional reserve banking' to create a mountain of debt....as the globalist and int'l banksters are proud to say, "debt is the mountain that will never go away".
 
 Karl Marx defined the socialism-capitalism paradigm, and  argued that revolution was impossible in a society that lived on the family farm, debt free.. With coming industraialization he forsaw that urbanization and industrialization were both requirements for a Communist revolution....actually a warning. In the 1920s, half of all Americans lived on a farm. Family farms that remained free of debt, enjoyed full-employment during the 1930s. Naturally, those business' that used debt to expand, were destroyed at that time and assets transferred. 
 The Federal Reserve Bank is a Marxist and Fascist institution. It creates the debt necessary to enslave our Republic, and the politics that are required to increase our indebtedness. Whether this country spends money on social programs (Socialism), or military expansion  (Fascism), or corpo welfare (Corporatism) we end up borrowing money from the Federal Reserve. As an added bonus, this privately owned corporation also charges us interest to use its Federal Reserve Notes as our currency. This is Bolshevikism and redistribution of wealth and can only be corrected by 'dollar for dollar' banking principles and other socially responsible economics. 
 The Satanic Psychopaths behind the Fed are also behind the Demopublic Party duoploy....,Democratic Party,  Obama, the ignorancy of Labor Unions as spear carriers, and global communism. They also control the Republican Party, corporate behemoths, Tea Party spear carriers, the media, illegal immigration laws and the stock market as well.....the stock market serving as another private bank and laundery for ill gotten gains for wealth transferr.
 Its a win-win.....for them.   Since 1913 the transferr of wealth in fewer and fewer hands, offshore, and loss of middle America has been monumental...Yes, there has been tremendous wealth transfer alright and the peasants are getting restless..   ...TM7

Can you name 5, 6 or 7 big changes that think would solve this problem and put us on the correct course as you see it?
Bullet statements are better.

[ironglow]

proper taxation,,,especially ending less taxation on money made from money and more taxation on money made from labor...taxation would remain progressive.  Tax on a flat rate..after removing ALL loopholes
 
total campaign contribution reform and lobbyiest interference with $$s, and stop revolving door politics
  Any unused campaign contributions placed into general treasury..not to be a bankroll for the politician
 
control and reform of reserve fractional banking practices, and bring back Glass-Steagal Act, audit the FED
  Govt to audit the Fed regularly, don't bail out banks and buttout..let banks compete
end to big-to-fail crony capitalism, if necessary nationalize those companys that are crony capitalist in order to preserve Capitalism.     Make crony capitalism illegal (loss of office and jail)   Nationalize nothing..govt getting involved in business enterprises is another term for Fascism.
 
fast track and release of alternative fuel technologies
   [/color]Agreed, but in the meantime use our OWN natural resources..no sense sending our wealth to those who hate us..
 
end bankruptcy of perpetual wars by debt merchants
    Ending all wars is a noble endeavor, but very elusive..especially when faced with a Pearl Harbor or 9/11
 
arrest crony gamesters and banksters that swindled with phony paper, deraviatives gambling
   If proven, jail them like any other criminal
 
control stock market push button instutional trades and other gaming, end US citizen extraction of wealth by market pirateers.
  I agree that online stock trading added to our troubles..but to stop it encroaches on freedom.  Most who lost money that way, did it with their eyes wide open.
 
start gravitating away from fiat currency to a backed currency,,,back other than by perpetual wars.
  Agreed;  .. wars explained above.
 
do not allow dual citizens to lurk or inhabit government offices...
     Nothing wrong with dual citizenship, so long as one is American.  Pres & Vice Pres should be born American.
paper ballot and no election night media coverage...
   Paper ballots are no more secure than any other; re: 1948 Texas senatorial election and the "Duke of Duval" county, where the ballot boxes disappeared for hours, and showed up again.. bearing an overwhelming win for "Landslide Lyndon" Johnson.
 
preserve US social safety net for elders, create a simple single payer health care system parallel to private insurance HC for those that want it.
  All health insurance private and competitive..congress shares same insurance with the people.
break up to big to fail industries by Sherman anti-Trust Act, etc..including mass media
Foster numerous, smaller banks with favorable laws. Let's have lots of banks..and NO BAILOUTS..Jail terms for malfeasance.  No loans to those who obviously will not be able to repay a mortgage or other loan.
Tariff and fair trade controlls on offshoring globalist minded corps. Tax corps appropriately.
  Tariffs on ALL incoming from overseas.  A tax on corporations is simply another tax on the people (customers).  Isn't the govt taxing us enough already ?
 
Border controls...repeal Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, have all elected reps sign the Constitution. End 'opinion' crimes prosectuions..
  Build border fence 300 yards inside current fence, mine the area between, place plenty of warning signs on fences, stock plenty of turkey buzzards to clean up the carrion.
 
Shrink government and spending, but only reasonablely and perserve programs that make sense...institue new general auditing practices  Who decides which programs "make sense" ?
 
commence rebuilding infrastructure, and continue to prtect environmnet with simplified and understandable conservation regs.
  Rebuild infrastructure by bonded bids (no union preferences, no kickbacks).  Protect environment...but no tree-huggers allowed in decision making.   Any new regulation which inhibits production, must be a PROVEN need.

 
EDIT: and I forgot to mention, if debt is a big issue immediately institutue a "Tobin Tax'' on currency transaction, swaps, and speculative transactions; in fact control speculation which is wealth extraction process of middle America.
   If the debt is too big...stop the STUPID SPENDING !!!!  Jail those politicians who spent with careless regard for the taxpayers.
~~~~~~~~~~
 
That's good enough for starters I reckon.....TM7

 
 THOUGHT FOR THE DAY! "If the debt which the banking companies owe be a blessing to anybody, it is to themselves alone, who are realizing a solid interest of eight or ten per cent on it. As to the public, these companies have banished all our gold and silver medium, which, before their institution, we had without interest, which never could have perished in our hands, and would have been our salvation now in the hour of war; instead of which they have given us two hundred million of froth and bubble, on which we are to pay them heavy interest, until it shall vanish into air... We are warranted, then, in affirming that this parody on the principle of 'a public debt being a public blessing,' and its mutation into the blessing of private instead of public debts, is as ridiculous as the original principle itself. In both cases, the truth is, that capital may be produced by industry, and accumulated by economy; but jugglers only will propose to create it by legerdemain tricks with paper." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813

[Buck-Ridge]

Actually I was referring to the article. I just got off work. Worked hard today for my 12 hour shift. I'm not real keen on sharing more than the 4 hours pay the government takes to finance laziness , drug abuse,  and the results of peoples poor planning and choices.
 I kind of like the idea of maybe having a chance to make money. I think it's criminal for people to steal successful peoples money.
These people that want more money I have some good advice. Work harder, learn something that you can get paid to do, get off drugs,
look for work where people are hiring, and don't belittle the guy that has already done this. He probably has enough money to hire you.

[ironglow]

Ditto..Buckridge

[Hooker]

TM you had me going until you threw this in.

create a simple single payer health care system parallel to private insurance HC for those that want it.

Single payer is government speak for tax payers get to foot the bill for more dead beats.

Pat

[Cabin4]

create a simple single payer health care system parallel to private insurance HC for those that want it.

And that approach is a guarantee that private insurance won’t be around very long. Private insurance can’t compete on price with a tax payer subsidized insurance system. Employers would stop providing HC coverage because they know employees can just go get their coverage from the public provided HC insurance. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[magooch]

The whole problem with wealth redistribution is that it assumes that there is only so much wealth and if a limited number of folks have it, there isn't any left for the masses.  Nothing could be more wrong.  Just because Bill Gates has a ton of money and assets, it doesn't prevent anyone from making their own.  There are an infinite number of pies to be baked, so you don't have to limit yourself to trying to grab a piece of someone elses pie--bake your own.
 
The real problem is envy, lack of ambition and talent and just plain old lazyness.

[powderman]

BUCK-RIDGE. YEP. POWDERMAN. 

[Pat/Rick]

The federal gov't should only provide a military for the defense and security of the nation (foreign powers, border protection, defend sovereignty). The people should work to build the nation.Government should remain small as to avoid weakening a nation (present examples given daily). Welfare should be left to the family. If somebody's family don't want them because they're a dirtball, why would the public want them? We used to call these folks beggars and bums. Our Constitution and BOR's should be honored and adhered to by the letter, not espounded on, not deviated from.

[SHOOTALL]

 
Can you name 5, 6 or 7 big changes that think would solve this problem and put us on the correct course as you see it?
Bullet statements are better.

 
End the ablity of banks to create money, A local bank has to secure loans from the Fed. So the local bank takes in $100 in deposits and inturn deposits it with the fed. Then it can borrow $1000 to loan out. So where did the $900 come from ?
Term limits
No bail outs
Less govt.

[Cabin4]

1.    Campaign finance reform. Until we get big money out of political campaigns, you will never get big influence out.
 
2.    Term limits (congressional seats 4 terms, senate 3)
 
3.    Tax reform, end the gigantic tax loop holes for people and business. If you earn income, you pay tax as a person if you net a profit as a business you pay as well. Sliding scale is fine. 50% of working people pay no federal income tax by design in the progressive tax approach. Big corps avoid paying due to the loop holes.
 
4.    End the Fed
 
5.    Get us out of the UN
 
6.    Any foreign war or engagement of our military requires a congressional approval.
 
7.    No SS payments for $500k annual income or above.
 
8.    End Obama care
 
9.    Balanced budget amendment.
 
 
 
A good start and watch the federal government shrink after.
 

[SHOOTALL]

That's a start

[jimster]

Many economists worry that making societies more equal through income redistribution or other means lowers economic growth. This “big tradeoff” between equality and efficiency,

Really...the entire first post is meaningless due to one simple fact...you can't "MAKE" society equal or anything else by giving them what someone else worked for...you can however make them "dependent".
So really...the entire post is all worthless due to the failed ideology of even thinking you can make all people equal...everyone is not equal.  Period.  The only thing we can really do is beat back the government and make it small, they feed on ideologies such as this and grow real big, any money the socialists would HOPE to gain is sucked up by the very government they voted in, they are too ignorant and blind to actually see as the government grows they themselves get less and less.  They keep on voting funny though...they don't see the math, they don't see much of anything. 
 
The only possible answer is to beat back the government and the socialists that vote them in, and hold them down as long as possible, some will actually try harder to depend on themselves, this is a good thing.  There isn't enough wealth in the entire world to satisfy a government with no math and no budget and filled with corruption.  There is no talking to any of them, or pointing out their socialist government has given them nothing but pain, they will never get a thing from any government...they will always just hope they do. They are not free...they don't even sound free...they sound pathetic and helpless. They just need a boot in the butt and some common sense.   
Spread the wealth...bullcrap...CREATE wealth....government can't do that...only we can. 
 
The title of this thread is even false and misleading..."Why America Should Spread the Wealth"....truth is American has spread the wealth more than any place else in the universe, and the American people have been more giving than anyone else...although the stats do say conservatives give the most...but that is pretty much a given.  A socialist has nothing to give anyone, their stuff comes from the capitalist...a proven fact.  Socialism is dead without someone elses money.  We have to have some...but lets not get carried away with it.  Or they will become dependent on it to the point where they won't help themselves.
 
 
 
 


 

[DDZ]

Many economists worry that making societies more equal through income redistribution or other means lowers economic growth. This “big tradeoff” between equality and efficiency,

Really...the entire first post is meaningless due to one simple fact...you can't "MAKE" society equal or anything else by giving them what someone else worked for...you can however make them "dependent".
So really...the entire post is all worthless due to the failed ideology of even thinking you can make all people equal...everyone is not equal.  Period.  The only thing we can really do is beat back the government and make it small, they feed on ideologies such as this and grow real big, any money the socialists would HOPE to gain is sucked up by the very government they voted in, they are too ignorant and blind to actually see as the government grows they themselves get less and less.  They keep on voting funny though...they don't see the math, they don't see much of anything. 
 
The only possible answer is to beat back the government and the socialists that vote them in, and hold them down as long as possible, some will actually try harder to depend on themselves, this is a good thing.  There isn't enough wealth in the entire world to satisfy a government with no math and no budget and filled with corruption.  There is no talking to any of them, or pointing out their socialist government has given them nothing but pain, they will never get a thing from any government...they will always just hope they do. They are not free...they don't even sound free...they sound pathetic and helpless. They just need a boot in the butt and some common sense.   
Spread the wealth...bullcrap...CREATE wealth....government can't do that...only we can. 
 
The title of this thread is even false and misleading..."Why America Should Spread the Wealth"....truth is American has spread the wealth more than any place else in the universe, and the American people have been more giving than anyone else...although the stats do say conservatives give the most...but that is pretty much a given.  A socialist has nothing to give anyone, their stuff comes from the capitalist...a proven fact.  Socialism is dead without someone elses money.  We have to have some...but lets not get carried away with it.  Or they will become dependent on it to the point where they won't help themselves.

Very good post. The first part of Jimster's post is the reason I have refrained from posting to it. The topic makes no sense what-so-ever, and ideas like this are so stupid that it makes me sick. Let alone that some fellow Americans are so clueless they are all in for stealing others money.   The only post I feel that needs to be posted to the topic is the one above.   

[NWBear]

I actually agree with about 90% of C4's 9 points - a very well thought out approach.  Too bad the entrenched POL's would never go along with it.
 
My comment on Wealth re-distribution is that like any imbalance in nature it will be corrected.  Historically it is a rather violent event (not necessarily mobs in the street) but sometimes a systemic upheaval which has it's own form of casualties.  Unfortunately both the concentration of wealth and the correction (re-distribution) seem to be inevitable...