Author Topic: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede  (Read 963 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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     When we saw a photo of an Armstrong Naval Gun by Shooter2 in his world ordnance tour thread, we thought, that set of parallel metal plates looks familiar.  We saw a very similar set of parallel plates on the bottom of the Ericsson designed gun carriage for the 11-inch Dahlgren Guns in the Monitor’s turret at the Monitor Center in Newport News, Virginia.  The Marine Archaeologists who cleaned and studied the turret and it’s contents also built a full size replica of the turret’s interior with all the guns and carriages hauled to the surface from the discovery site.  We are wondering if any of you members or guests know if these parallel plates are part of a braking or recoil limiting system common to both carriages?  In the photos Mike and I took at the Monitor Center in 2008 you can see what are likely actuators of such a system,  the large bronze hand wheel on the Ericsson Gun Carriage and the 90 deg. Throw lever on the Armstrong Naval Gun model.  Anybody know how it works??

Mike and Tracy

 
Shooter2’s photo showing parallel plates on the Armstrong Naval Gun carriage.  See also that elevation is via a curved rack bolted to each side of the tube and pinion gears and shafts and hand wheels.




 
Shooter2’s photo showing a possible brake system activation lever with a 90 deg. throw.




 
Full size model of what was found when the Monitor’s turret was hauled to the surface.  Note set of parallel plates on the Ericsson gun carriage.




 
Close-up photo of plates and Marine concretion on Cap Squares and Trunnion end.




 
Outside the replica turret looking in.  Is there enough room under the carriage for other carriage braking parts?




 
Possible bronze brake actuating hand wheel, bronze Cap Squares and bronze cap for an Elevation Screw supporting Bolster bolt.
 



 
Replicas of the two 5,000 pound, rotating wrought-iron gun port  shutters.




 
Note that most of the damage to the Ericsson screw is on the trailing edge of each damaged blade.  Could this mean that the screw was in reverse when the ship hit the sea floor stern first and upside down?  Was the Monitor backing just before her fatal plunge on Dec. 30, 1862 off Cape Hatteras?


 
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Re: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2011, 05:55:17 PM »
If the screw was free wheeling-windmilling as she sank stern first, would the trialling edge them become the leading edge?

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 05:02:53 AM »
In answer to Mike & Tracy, You are correct in your guess, it is a “plate compressor” intended to counter recoil. Its principle was described in a paper in 1866 by the Royal Navy as:

“Frictional iron plates, suspended from bed of carriage between parallel balks of timber placed lengthway on bed of slide, pinched together by two levers, one on each side, which are acted on by screws worked by handwheels on the outside of each bracket.”

The idea had been around for many years previously, in competition with the common compressor carriages that gripped the side members of the undercarriage of great guns.

All before hydraulics were introduced, of course.

Starr

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 11:08:58 AM »
   

 If the screw was free wheeling-windmilling as she sank stern first, would the trialling edge them become the leading edge?
 

      I consulted the "Old Salt", my business partner, Mike and he agrees with you, Double D.  He also said that the ship probably would not have been 'backing' very slightly, as I thought, in order to keep the tow line tight, but that even if the propeller was not rotating as she struck the sea-bed, the trailing edge would have struck first if she plunged stern first and upside down as we have read.  I would venture that, considering the weight of this armored ship and the large amount of energy expended at impact, the bit of propeller housing aft of the propeller, would have been crushed in an instant, upon stern contact with the sea-bed.  Thanks, DD.
 
 
 

 In answer to Mike & Tracy, You are correct in your guess, it is a “plate compressor” intended to counter recoil. Its principle was described in a paper in 1866 by the Royal Navy as:
 
 “Frictional iron plates, suspended from bed of carriage between parallel balks of timber placed lengthway on bed of slide, pinched together by two levers, one on each side, which are acted on by screws worked by handwheels on the outside of each bracket.”
 
 The idea had been around for many years previously, in competition with the common compressor carriages that gripped the side members of the undercarriage of great guns.
 
 All before hydraulics were introduced, of course.
 
 Starr     

 
       Many thanks, Starr, we were fairly certain of the plate set's purpose, but had nothing on which to base that assumption.  That information is very, very interesting to us, because we are keenly aware of the powerful effects of recoil based on our extensive test firing of the reduced scale seacoast guns which we make.  Once, while testing 'Counterhurter' compression on our 100 Pdr. Parrot Rifle, we screwed both of them down tight to positively stop recoil of the tube and Upper Carriage.  THAT was a mistake!!  The whole 80 pounds of gun and 65 pounds of bench lifted up and back, tilting an alarming 35 degrees!  We have much admiration for the genius of John Ericsson who had to design his Dahlgren gun carriage so that it would stop in a very short distance within the confines of the 20 foot diameter turret, but not so quickly as to destroy itself.
 
 "The idea had been around for many years previously, in competition with the common compressor carriages that gripped the side members of the undercarriage of great guns."
 
      A most perfect and easily understood example of this lies in the way that the 150 Pdr. Armstrong Rifle of 1864 works.  It  resides at the USMA at West Point, New York.  Large bronze hand wheels on each cheek turn a single-lead screw which has both right hand and left hand threads.  Wrought iron brake shoes, on each side of the Chassis rails, hinged near the bottom of each cheek are pushed outward above this hinge pivot and this subsequently causes the lower portion of the shoes to move inward to grip the Chassis (Undercarriage), rails.  We could not see much of this mechanism when we studied this gun and carriage at West point and again when it was on loan to Fort Fisher, North Carolina, but we believe that the Jack Coggins book entitled Arms and Equipment of the Civil War  has an excellent depiction of this common compressor braking system. 

     It's good to remember that however crusty, cantankerous and irascible he may have been, that Captain John Ericsson was a brilliant naval architect, engineer and ship propulsion expert who created a fine revolving turret and an excellent gun carriage as well.
 
 Tracy and Mike
     
   
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Starr 2011

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Re: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 02:19:24 PM »
 There’s a long article in the Journal of the Royal United Service Institution, 1865, Page 496, on “Modern Carriages for Heavy Naval Ordnance”, giving British thinking on the subject of different types of friction compressors.
 
http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=NXVDAAAAcAAJ
 
I have always been curious as to why, as metal-on-metal, they didn’t seize-up when the piece was fired.
 
Ericsson was indeed a fine engineer.  In Britain he is best known for his railway locomotive of 1829, his steam fire engine of the same period (the first ever built), and for his invention of a screw propeller for ships. He was never involved with ordnance in Britain.
 
Starr

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: He Disliked the US Navy - Thought the British Stingy- An Irascible Swede
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 02:50:04 AM »
Starr 2011,

This book contains detailed descriptions and drawings of some U.S. Navy carriages. XV-inch Turret-Carriage, PP. 377-384. A section on English Naval Gun-carriages begins on P. 404.

A Text-Book of Naval Ordnance and Gunnery, prepared for the use of the cadet midshipmen at the United States Naval Academy by A.P. Cooke (1880)
http://ia600304.us.archive.org//load_djvu_applet.php?file=29/items/textbookofnavalo02cookuoft/textbookofnavalo02cookuoft.djvu
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.