Author Topic: Owning "Bad Guys" Guns (Read 3213 times)

flmason · « **on:** October 18, 2011, 06:06:59 PM »

Hi All,
When I was younger owned an M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, and a '41 P-38. So long time military fan here.

Fast forward 20 years, those guns are gone, sole 'em off in a down turn.

Picked up a '38 M91/30 the other day. Numbers matching, Izhesvk, the usual accessories, in pretty fair shape all considered.

But... was thinking about history and went looking around that date. Seems that was when Stalin was in power. I'm thinking these guns could've been used in the Ukraine genocide or similar?

What I'm mulling over is whether owning something like this is akin to have Charles Manson's weapons around the house, since essentially they were used for killing people? At this old age I'm wondering how folks manage to not think about that and buy 1, 10, 100 of these? LOL!

I guess one could argue that Russia was on our side in WW II and all that. Or that the P-38 has more of a bad "mojo" to it, and so on, but still wondering if this sort of thing is really something to want to own?

Interestingly I see veterans owning lots of them. Would've thought they'd be the first to say they should be melted down?

Thoughts?

Victor3 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2011, 03:11:45 AM »

I've never been even slightly concerned about such things. Military rifles are designed to kill people.

I have a Garand that might have been used to blow the heads off of several nice German teenagers who looked a lot like my Son. I also have two Nazi-marked K98's that may have been used to kill 1000 GI's or Jews for all I know. I make no connection between a hunk of metal and the person who used it 60 years ago for whatever reason.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 03:17:58 AM »

How about police trade in or other guns that could have been used to take peoples life. They are a tool nothing more nothing less. Only a human elevates/depresses the status of a gun/tool.

RevJim · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:15:03 AM »

I hear you, it took me over 30 years to allow myself to own an SKS/AK. I had many relatives, friends killed or shot up with them in Nam. I finally realized I was being too uptight, and played with both. I hate Commies (yes, I said hate) , talked with many old German conscripted soldiers of the 3rd Reich ('72-73 Augsburg) and admire the Finns for remodeling the Moison (and putting a hurting on the Ruskies) I've owned one each, a Finn M39 and a Nazi stamped battlefield pickup Mod98K. I enjoyed shooting all of them. As said, they are only tools, no different than the Fords/Chevys/Chryslers many of my friends/relatives were killed by or in. The problem nowadays is Hollywood has made your neighbor think "you" are the bad guy if you have one of these! Here in Utah, if you are putting your guns into the car to go to the range,etc, you have to have that AK/AR style rifle cased, or you will get the "Man With a Gun" call to your local PoPo, and you "will" get a ticket when they show up! So, the pump shotgun, leverguns, even the M1 rifle or Carbine looks "safe" to them. Sheeple!

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2011, 02:18:51 PM »

If, for instance, Manson used a S&W Mod. 10, would you have any second thoughts about owning a Mod. 10 exactly like the one he owned? Unless you idolized him, the gun would just be another Mod. 10. Only the actual gun he owned would have any kind of stigma attached to it.

flmason · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:30:09 PM »

Quote from: woodchukhntr on October 19, 2011, 02:18:51 PM

If, for instance, Manson used a S&W Mod. 10, would you have any second thoughts about owning a Mod. 10 exactly like the one he owned? Unless you idolized him, the gun would just be another Mod. 10. Only the actual gun he owned would have any kind of stigma attached to it.

No second thoughts about owning a new off the shelf one, with no history, that's for sure. But Charles' actual gun, would prefer to grind it up. Which is my point with any milsurp, and especially those from the other side. For example, my Mosin might, as Victor3 points out, have shot some seriously innocent people.

Sure, on some level it's just a collection of atoms, and any such associations are in our own minds, was curious how others feel.

As I was saying, when I was younger, no problem at all owning a P-38 with ensignia all over it. Had a chinese SKS but was one of the Norinco one's, NIB, so no history there. But even the Garand, that came back in from Turkey, I believe might have been used for something terrible.

As I get older I wonder about it a bit more. On more than one level. For example, as in, "Why do we idolize people killing machines?"

Sure I'll be the first to admit, I like the military designs. Just wonder about owning one's that were actually put to thier intended use these days. Heck I even worked in a military jet factory. But there are times when I realize that collectively, as a society we used them on people, even if I didn't fly it, nor even had worked on it... my taxed payed for it. So we're collectively guilty for the result to some extent.

Granted, there's the "just following orders" or "I'm just one taxpayer" line of reasoning as well.

In any event, I use Manson as an example because I believe just about anyone might prefer not to have that particular relic around the house. If simply because of what it reminds you of. Thought it would help to carry the idea across.

flmason · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:37:01 PM »

Quote from: RevJim on October 19, 2011, 06:15:03 AM

I hear you, it took me over 30 years to allow myself to own an SKS/AK. I had many relatives, friends killed or shot up with them in Nam. I finally realized I was being too uptight, and played with both. I hate Commies (yes, I said hate) , talked with many old German conscripted soldiers of the 3rd Reich ('72-73 Augsburg) and admire the Finns for remodeling the Moison (and putting a hurting on the Ruskies) I've owned one each, a Finn M39 and a Nazi stamped battlefield pickup Mod98K. I enjoyed shooting all of them. As said, they are only tools, no different than the Fords/Chevys/Chryslers many of my friends/relatives were killed by or in. The problem nowadays is Hollywood has made your neighbor think "you" are the bad guy if you have one of these! Here in Utah, if you are putting your guns into the car to go to the range,etc, you have to have that AK/AR style rifle cased, or you will get the "Man With a Gun" call to your local PoPo, and you "will" get a ticket when they show up! So, the pump shotgun, leverguns, even the M1 rifle or Carbine looks "safe" to them. Sheeple!

Lost a family member to a Chevy Blazer rollover, I can relate there.

Well, I don't feel any issues with guns in general. Am a big RKBA person, no one can make me feel guilty about that. It's just a fundamental part of American culture with a rather practical rationale.

I am surprised that you have problems in Utah. Ticket for what, exactly? I'd have thought Utah would've been a pro gun state. I do know it changes across the country. In Ca. you couldn't find a bow and arrow in a sporting goods store. Over on Iowa you can buy a Remington 770 at Walmart, if not some Weatherby's.

I guess in some level I'm wondering if a "home" should have such a tool in it. Sure an M1, "the good guys gun" doesn't worry me as much, but as I age, it does make me think more than in my 20's and 30's when the fact that it was a war relic made it all the more excellent.

flmason · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2011, 06:41:03 PM »

Quote from: Victor3 on October 19, 2011, 03:11:45 AM

I've never been even slightly concerned about such things. Military rifles are designed to kill people.

I have a Garand that might have been used to blow the heads off of several nice German teenagers who looked a lot like my Son. I also have two Nazi-marked K98's that may have been used to kill 1000 GI's or Jews for all I know. I make no connection between a hunk of metal and the person who used it 60 years ago for whatever reason.

Yeah, I hear where you're coming from in the abstract. But heck, that soldiers blood and sweat are probably in the stock, and maybe even some of the guts of folks he shot.

So on some level I guess I'm debating what might be metaphysical topics.

Victor3 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:34:23 AM »

It's also possible that the 1935 50 cent piece I have contains a tiny bit of the silver from the 30 coins paid to Judas.

Even if I knew for a fact that it did, I wouldn't sweat it...

Pat/Rick · « **Reply #9 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:50:41 AM »

I usually research the history era of all my arms. But I don't dwell on the acts that they could have committed. If I did that, ALL firearms would be ugly, how many lever guns were used to kill native Americans defending their homes? See what I mean? Naw. Me? I just like guns.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2011, 05:53:53 AM »

I will say its unnerving to see Americans dressed in uniforms of our enemy for anything other than a movie or reenactment . Something about respect I think.

Avyctes · « **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2011, 07:43:02 AM »

I got into a similar discussion on another forum about Japanese rifles. Some there had had family killed in the South Pacific, and are very seriously bigoted towards Japanese. They said they wouldn't have no filthy Jap rifle in their house and why would anyone want one.

My reply was that a rifle has no political affiliation, it's just a rifle. If there is anything evil going on, it's in the mind of the person controlling it. That person could just as easily be controlling a vehicle or anything else and using it for evil ends.

So yes, any military arm has the potential to have been used to slay. It's a military service rifle, so that goes with the territory. They weren't made to hang panties on in your parlor. They were designed and built to kill, to control, to subjugate, and whatever else nations with militaries use arms for.

I collect because I love firearms and I particularly love military firearms. I realize my 1940 Luger could have actually not spent it's entire service life in a holster but may have been used to execute a partisan in a field somewhere. I have no way of knowing.

If it really bothers you, you should probably give it up, clear your conscious, and go get a brand new rifle to shoot.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:48:44 AM »

For the first time I can remember here on GBO, I'm going to violate my own rule and actually criticize something. I apologise.

This type of thinking is incomprehensible and aggravating to me.

It is the reason that the anti-gun people can make others believe that such things as black rifles, bayonet studs, flash suppressors and pistol grips are inherently evil and should be outlawed! It is the reason that our own Garands cannot be repatriated, let alone some arms from other countries. It is the reason that mere words like "Saturday Night Special" and "Assault Rifle" conjure up images of innocents murdered.

Any machine is an inanimate object! It is a tool! It can have no evil intent! It is not inherently evil in of itself! Any reasoning person would never hold to such a perception.

I better stop. I'm getting myself all wound up and to quote some big green dude, "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry..."

'sides, I hear my AK calling me from the safe... "take me to a school yard...take me to a school yard..." OH! and my car, "Christine" is volunteering to drive me there!

Victor3 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:08:57 PM »

I gotta stop using cash...

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-08-17/news/17931231_1_cocaine-drug-detection-contaminated

Your money needs laundering.
A new study found that almost all the bank notes in circulation in this country are contaminated with cocaine.
An average of about 85% of US greenbacks had traces of the drug - up 20% since the same team did a similar study two years ago.
"To my surprise, we're finding more and more cocaine in banknotes," said Dr. Yuegang Zuo, who led the researchers at the University of Massachusetts.

us920669 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 21, 2011, 03:53:55 AM »

I wonder if the sample came from U Mass. On the weapons angle, yeah, I think about that sometimes too. When I was collecting I had guns from the Civil War and all the big wars, friend and foe alike. How about Japanese swords. They were not just uniform accessories - well some of them were, the ones that look European - but the samurai type carried by WW II officers almost certainly were used on someone, very likely a non-combatant.

If you want spooky, way back in maybe the early or mid 80s there was an auction at the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame or something like that, I think in Waco. They had a bunch of stuff from Bonny and Clyde. You could have gotten the sunglasses with one lens shot out, magazines from Clyde's BAR, I think there was a Colt Detective Special which Bonny had in a thigh holster (humm), on and on. I also remember a half pack of Chesterfield, or maybe Old Gold cigarettes that were hers. Now you know they were just total psychos, killed a lot of people who weren't even interfering with their crimes, and I got the list on that auction. Nothing brought very much money. Maybe that's a good sign.

GH1 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2011, 02:32:18 AM »

I understand your sentiment and can easily see why you would feel that way, but I also understand how someone wouldn't. Like many emotional matters there is not right or wrong way to feel about it, just different ways. If it makes you uncomfortable to own such a gun then you should sell it. It's a personal thing and you need to to what you're comfortable with.
GH1

jlwilliams · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2011, 03:19:26 AM »

Personally I don't see a problem with owning a "Bad Guy's" weapon. The same aplies to Lugers, old west guns with documented provenance to an 'outlaw' (read- criminal), and any other gun. It just doesn't bother me. AK rifles kill too many Americans and too many innocents. Owning one doesn't make one party to that.

Was my Broomhandle used by a good guy or a bad guy? Probably a couple of each. It's obviously been around. Was this M1Carbine used by a USGI to free Europe? Probably. Was it lend leased to someone who was less noble? Was it used to murder dissidents in Bolivia? Was it used to enforce 'order' in ElSalvador? I don't know. I hope not, but it's mine now and I'm only responsable for what it does under my watch.

That's my opinion. That said, I can see how it may bother you. Respectfully I'll say that if this is starting to bother you at this point in your life I wouldn't blame you if you walked away from military guns or all guns all together. If the idea of idolizing killing tools makes you feel ill-at-ease then don't do it. Maybe you want to get into something else. A relative of mine got big into vintage fly fishing gear for a while. Maybe sell off the weapons and buy a car or bike. Whatever. Point is, if it bothers you, move on to something that doesn't bother you.

If this is a hobby for you, and it sounds like guns are a hobby, then it should be pleasurable. Hobbies are supposed to bring some joy into our lives. If it's stressing you just let it go.

flmason · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2011, 08:34:08 PM »

Quote from: Victor3 on October 20, 2011, 11:08:57 PM

I gotta stop using cash...

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-08-17/news/17931231_1_cocaine-drug-detection-contaminated

Your money needs laundering.
A new study found that almost all the bank notes in circulation in this country are contaminated with cocaine.
An average of about 85% of US greenbacks had traces of the drug - up 20% since the same team did a similar study two years ago.
"To my surprise, we're finding more and more cocaine in banknotes," said Dr. Yuegang Zuo, who led the researchers at the University of Massachusetts.

Went to law school (and dropped out) back around '95. One of the cases you study is one where the prosecution of an alleged drug dealer took a pile of the bad guy's money and had it analyzed for coke. The prosecution argued there was so much coke in the money, he had to be a dealer.

Defense went to a mint and got a bag of random shredded money, ran the same test, came up with the same amounts...

LOL!

flmason · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2011, 08:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Victor3 on October 20, 2011, 02:34:23 AM

It's also possible that the 1935 50 cent piece I have contains a tiny bit of the silver from the 30 coins paid to Judas.

Even if I knew for a fact that it did, I wouldn't sweat it...

LOL! Interesting perspective.

I've hardly handled money since debit cards became available. I was somewhere a while back and had to get some real cash for something, can't recall what. Cab ride or something... the money had colors and the president pix were larger. I realized I hadn't handled any paper money in years. Didn't even realize it had changed.

flmason · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2011, 08:50:11 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on October 20, 2011, 08:48:44 AM

For the first time I can remember here on GBO, I'm going to violate my own rule and actually criticize something. I apologise.

This type of thinking is incomprehensible and aggravating to me. It is the reason that the anti-gun people can make others believe that such things as black rifles, bayonet studs, flash suppressors and pistol grips are inherently evil and should be outlawed! It is the reason that our own Garands cannot be repatriated, let alone some arms from other countries. It is the reason that mere words like "Saturday Night Special" and "Assault Rifle" conjure up images of innocents murdered.

Any machine is an inanimate object! It is a tool! It can have no evil intent! It is not inherently evil in of itself! Any reasoning person would never hold to such a perception.

I better stop. I'm getting myself all wound up and to quote some big green dude, "you wouldn't like me when I'm angry..."

'sides, I hear my AK calling me from the safe... "take me to a school yard...take me to a school yard..." OH! and my car, "Christine" is volunteering to drive me there!

LOL! All's fair. I asked for opinions. No worries here. I posted in good faith. You're answering in good faith. Criticism and critiical thinking, when intended to get to a solution, when constructive are all good. Even if the "power of postivie thinking" crowd hates it, LOL!

No anti-gun sentiment here. 2nd ammendment was born out of real conditions. As long as the world can be a hostile place, defense is important. Even before we get to game harvesting, etc.

Not incomprehensible at all. Consider the long, long history of how symbology and people relate. Heck all that pentagram and witchraft stuff etc. Of course that's not what I'm talking about here, but it's an example of how alot of people believed a symbol had some power. Heck some people still believe in astrology. Which is really confusing things by thinking planets have some power vrs. the fact that the sky was just a big clock that could be used to track cycles and such.

Humans have a long history of that sort of thing.

Heck isn't that the sort of thing religious wars have been fought over? Our god/bible is the "right" one, and so forth? I've hear wiccans critique Christians and vice-versa. And yet both could be completely made up. Wicca might be, if I understand it's history correctly.

The level I'm thinking on is that of knowing where it went, what must be in/on it, and how possibly american vets feel about having the other sides tools kicking around at every gun show and gun shop and why/why it does/does not worry them.

I mean, let's take a concete case to illustrate. Had a buddy years ago who was jewish. At the time I didn't know it though. Took him out to the gun club, brought along a Super Blackhawk, a S&W and such. For whatever reasons, left the 1941 AC Walther P-38 home. Always was glad I didn't bring it in retrospect. I mean how might he have felt about a gun with Nazi stamps all over it. "Here ya go bro... take a few shots with this one."

So anyway, from the emotional perspective I think it's a fair line of thought. Also from the perspective of looking at it and saying, "Why at this late date do we still have to shoot at each other? We've split atoms, landed on the moon, sent junk over to mars, why can't we solve famine and f-ing business cycles and get rid of the reasons we drill holes in each other with lead?"

(P.S. Wasn't it Winchester's wife who made the crazy house because of something about '94 Winchesters being used on Native Americans?)

P.P.S. Just for the record, since I noticed your bylines, I'm not some anti-gun liberal. Used to work at GESP and had clearances. This isn't some angle at convincing people to give up the 2nd ammendment.

BTW, what's this "Christine" stuff about? Have to admit, I'm not following that.

flmason · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2011, 08:58:57 PM »

Quote from: jlwilliams on October 22, 2011, 03:19:26 AM

Personally I don't see a problem with owning a "Bad Guy's" weapon. The same aplies to Lugers, old west guns with documented provenance to an 'outlaw' (read- criminal), and any other gun. It just doesn't bother me. AK rifles kill too many Americans and too many innocents. Owning one doesn't make one party to that.

Was my Broomhandle used by a good guy or a bad guy? Probably a couple of each. It's obviously been around. Was this M1Carbine used by a USGI to free Europe? Probably. Was it lend leased to someone who was less noble? Was it used to murder dissidents in Bolivia? Was it used to enforce 'order' in ElSalvador? I don't know. I hope not, but it's mine now and I'm only responsable for what it does under my watch.

That's my opinion. That said, I can see how it may bother you. Respectfully I'll say that if this is starting to bother you at this point in your life I wouldn't blame you if you walked away from military guns or all guns all together. If the idea of idolizing killing tools makes you feel ill-at-ease then don't do it. Maybe you want to get into something else. A relative of mine got big into vintage fly fishing gear for a while. Maybe sell off the weapons and buy a car or bike. Whatever. Point is, if it bothers you, move on to something that doesn't bother you.

If this is a hobby for you, and it sounds like guns are a hobby, then it should be pleasurable. Hobbies are supposed to bring some joy into our lives. If it's stressing you just let it go.

Good points.

I'll always be a gun fan. Chances are good, if it was an M1 Garand, 03 or somes such, probably wouldn't have been thinking about it as much. But grew up during the cold war, and my particular MN is from the Stalin era. So whether intrinsic or it was beat into my head by the TV, was wondering about these sort of issues.

I'll be first to admit, I'm a fan of military technology. If but that it's generally not done with come cock-and-bull marketing plan in mind, but tooling to really do a job under tough conditions. For whatever reasons I find an most military rifles more attractive than sport hunting rifles like a Model 700. But I realize from the perspective of art/esthetics that bass ackwards.

But at the same time, hypocritically enough, gotta love the jeweled bolt on a Weatherby Mark V, LOL!

In any event, I generally buy guns with the idea that they have to do what they are for, which is fire when the trigger is pulled, and they have to be reliable. My personal $$$ situation stinks at present and well, the MN hit a number of marks for me. Cheap, dependable, powerful, it's military (as was saying above) and so on. So I caved in and bought the thing. Were I wealthier at present, yeah, I'd have gone for something new, as someone else suggested, something without a history.

Or perhaps more honestly, were I wealthy I'd have two collections. One with all the military stuff and one for actual personal use for the usual sporting purposes.

flmason · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2011, 09:05:46 PM »

Quote from: us920669 on October 21, 2011, 03:53:55 AM

I wonder if the sample came from U Mass. On the weapons angle, yeah, I think about that sometimes too. When I was collecting I had guns from the Civil War and all the big wars, friend and foe alike. How about Japanese swords. They were not just uniform accessories - well some of them were, the ones that look European - but the samurai type carried by WW II officers almost certainly were used on someone, very likely a non-combatant.

If you want spooky, way back in maybe the early or mid 80s there was an auction at the Texas Ranger Hall of Fame or something like that, I think in Waco. They had a bunch of stuff from Bonny and Clyde. You could have gotten the sunglasses with one lens shot out, magazines from Clyde's BAR, I think there was a Colt Detective Special which Bonny had in a thigh holster (humm), on and on. I also remember a half pack of Chesterfield, or maybe Old Gold cigarettes that were hers. Now you know they were just total psychos, killed a lot of people who weren't even interfering with their crimes, and I got the list on that auction. Nothing brought very much money. Maybe that's a good sign.

It's not so much about spooky as about what the piece symbolizes (the Reds), what it may *actually* have been used to do (genocide?), and what sort of crud is still in it, LOL! After all, I keep hearing this thing about "pissing in Mosin barrels" or some such.

But of course if you wanted to follow that line of logic out, Japanese cars wouldn't be here, chinese products perhaps not either, and so on. No idea how one draws a line on these things. I think it, of neccesity is probably personal.

My car, ironically was built in Hiroshima. Been wondering for 10 years now, how much carbon from vaporized japanese people are in it. Quite honestly, had I realized where it was made back when I bought, might not have.

I mean, ask yourself this. If they leveled what's left of Aushwitz and put a BMW factory there... would you want one? Would a Jewish person want one? Why, why not?

Difficult issues, to be sure.

flmason · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2011, 09:21:52 PM »

Quote from: Pat/Rick on October 20, 2011, 05:50:41 AM

I usually research the history era of all my arms. But I don't dwell on the acts that they could have committed. If I did that, ALL firearms would be ugly, how many lever guns were used to kill native Americans defending their homes? See what I mean? Naw. Me? I just like guns.

But you wouldn't be wrong.

To me, if you did think about those things, it might lead you to make more considered judgements if you have to use a gun.

And think Winchester's wife did go nutz worry about the Native Americans that Winchester Rifles were used on. My usual thinking on that is that the Native Americans were killing each other too. Doesn't make what went on correct. It was just how expansionism worked at that time. A tougher time in some ways to be sure.

I'm going to tentatively argue that if folks did think about the larger and deeper ramifications of things, it might be a step toward making a better world.

As to guns and ugliness. A couple of thoughts. First, for me, guns, especially nicely made ones are a form of industrial art and can be very beautiful from the perspectives of fit, finish, design, and so on. But secondly, yes all guns are ugly as they are for killing. But... the problem is, everything we eat has to be killed, save maybe milk. So if there's a god, I question why is it this way? Why can't we just absorb sunlight or something. But like it or not, life as we know it, and nature is largely about what east what. So there's really a dual view there. To the person the gun feeds... it's a good gun. To the deer that just got shot, not so good.

I think it was Marquis Du Sade of all people that said, "Life is nothing but teeth attached to a digestive tract looking for other such entities to eat." Sad but true.

Some other such writer said something to the effect of, "...and each life sticks it's head up above the pile of bones of the lives it has consumed, faces the sun and says... life is good..." or something to that effect.

To whit, there are tines when I regret the cow that had to die for the burger I just ate, and other times when I'm hungry enough the thought doesn't cross my mind.

In any event, I have my questions about why it *has* to be like this if there was some all life loving god who could do *anything* without limit. Seems like a sucky system to me, if anything and everything were possible.

Victor3 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2011, 02:17:21 AM »

Quote from: flmason on October 22, 2011, 08:36:18 PM

I've hardly handled money since debit cards became available. I was somewhere a while back and had to get some real cash for something, can't recall what. Cab ride or something... the money had colors and the president pix were larger. I realized I hadn't handled any paper money in years. Didn't even realize it had changed.

Right....

How do people pay you to cross over you bridge?

flmason · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:11:46 PM »

Quote from: Victor3 on October 23, 2011, 02:17:21 AM

Quote from: flmason on October 22, 2011, 08:36:18 PM

I've hardly handled money since debit cards became available. I was somewhere a while back and had to get some real cash for something, can't recall what. Cab ride or something... the money had colors and the president pix were larger. I realized I hadn't handled any paper money in years. Didn't even realize it had changed.

Right....

How do people pay you to cross over you bridge?

Haven't had to use a toll bridge in years except once this year over around New York. Actually pulled into a lane that didn't accept debit cards and had to take an envelope and mail the payment it. Was on a business trip at the time, was looking for a place at 10 pm. to get to an ATM... missed that last turnoff... was stuck on some bridge near La Guardia. The LEO gave me a seriously hard time, LOL!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:36:49 PM »

I think you can look at the craftsman ship and the history of the fire arm. Bad guy guns are usually well made and cheap that can be used for hunting, home defense, or target shooting.
Everyone wants an M1 garand in their collection along with a 1903 and or a 1903A, and even a Krag (carbine and or rifle)
Looking at what the powers used against each other.
For a while I had a K98 (WWII) and a 98Gew (WWI) and seeing he difference between them is very little and how they are very different. Shooting them gives you an idea of what they went through and how good they were when compared. I aslo had both American rifles of WWI as well as the two rifles used by the British. I had a Mosin Nagant but do not like it or the Arasaka. The safety.
The Tokarov 38 and hte M1 spauned the Mauser 41 and the M1 carbine spauned the STG-44 that later spauned the AK and the whole idea of an assault rifle.

flmason · « **Reply #26 on:** October 23, 2011, 08:41:25 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on October 23, 2011, 07:36:49 PM

I think you can look at the craftsman ship and the history of the fire arm. Bad guy guns are usually well made and cheap that can be used for hunting, home defense, or target shooting.
Everyone wants an M1 garand in their collection along with a 1903 and or a 1903A, and even a Krag (carbine and or rifle)
Looking at what the powers used against each other.
For a while I had a K98 (WWII) and a 98Gew (WWI) and seeing he difference between them is very little and how they are very different. Shooting them gives you an idea of what they went through and how good they were when compared. I aslo had both American rifles of WWI as well as the two rifles used by the British. I had a Mosin Nagant but do not like it or the Arasaka. The safety.
The Tokarov 38 and hte M1 spauned the Mauser 41 and the M1 carbine spauned the STG-44 that later spauned the AK and the whole idea of an assault rifle.

I hear that.

Yes, I agree, the MN safety isn't real confidence inspiring. It may be very positive when engaged, but it is a pain to use.

I did own a Springfield Armory M1 years ago. The Military Armory, not the folks over in Ill. I miss that one. My favorite of all time, despite there being better guns since.

Have shot the K98's and sporterized 98's in various calibers. Has to be about the best military bolt action I can think of. But haven't had the opportunity to try all of them. Had a buddy with one of the 6.5 Japs that he got from a grandfather... he went out and bought some 6.5 machine gun ammo or something and managed to jam an over sized cartridge into the chamber and get it stuck. Suffice to say he wasn't real gun literate, LOL! In any event, I'd say my #1 choice in a bolt action would be the 03 Springfield, simply because it's 30-06. Caliber aside, #1 for me would be the K98 to be sure.

Well, after looking over a detailed teardown for my little NEF 20 gauge... I'm remembering why I like Mil designs. At the very least field stripping was a consideration, LOL!

Can't deny liking a nice 700 or Weatherby though. I can appreciate the sort of sports car refinement those sort of arms have. But in the end, I'm the type that would probably pick an accurized military design every time if I had to depend on it. But that's just me.

The other MN shortcoming, aside from the safety strikes me there's no good way to mount a scope without having to tap it. The scout mounts strike me as prone to problems, but that's just an impression.

For now I'm going to keep the thing. Would've like an M38 or M44, but will do for now.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #27 on:** October 24, 2011, 09:07:37 AM »

Quote from: flmason link=topic=243153.msg1099398790#msg1099398790

BTW, what's this "Christine" stuff about? Have to admit, I'm not following that.

Steven King novel & movie. That's her in the background.

A possessed car that possesses the lad that buys her...

Dweezil · « **Reply #28 on:** October 24, 2011, 01:24:47 PM »

I think the only military rifle I would't buy based on history would be a Yugo AK. Why, you ask? Because in the Bosnian conflict, military command and control completely broke down in the resultant genocide. Many of the Yugo weapons from that bloodbath were poorly maintained, if at all, the bores are pitted. It can be a crapshoot finding one in good shape. If I was just looking for a piece of history, ok, fine, but I wouldn't want one as a shooter.
I think the colorful, often bloody, history is part of the appeal of milsurp weapons. I like history, and I like holding, preserving and shooting a piece of history.

1911crazy · « **Reply #29 on:** October 24, 2011, 03:25:18 PM »

I knew most of my guns have killed but thats not my fault nor will they kill anyne again. I don't hate the enemy because they were fighting for there country while you fought for ours. I always worried about noises in the safe?? Ghosts and guns vibrating or shaking but nothing in all these many years yet.