Author Topic: 45/70 BC reloading (Read 1804 times)

original · « **on:** October 19, 2011, 04:31:48 AM »

I am going to get geared up to reload for my h&r 45/70 BC that I have never shot before. It seem like from the other post that the 405gr are what most people like. The local cast place has the 405gr hard cast and sized to .459 the lighter bullets are .458 My question is if they are hard cast will the .001 make that much of a difference. I was also leaning towards getting the Hornday dies. Any ideas about the pros and cons of different die sets? Any input on the brass and powder selection would help also. thanks again.

tacklebury · « **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:14:03 PM »

I have heard lots of good about the 405's. I am currently loading mostly 350 FP from Hornady. I like RL 7 powder and use it exclusively now. I haven't found a lead my BC will shoot consistently enough for me. Slug your bore and go .001 bigger minimum if you want accuracy. If you will be pushing leads with modern powder, you will want a gas checked version most likely for anything over 1600 fps anyway. If you stick to jacketed, you have a lot more options. If you want to do BP loads, make sure you fill the case with a drop tube and get a little compression on the bullet with jacketed. If you are using leads, you will want gas checks OR grease cookie OR under bullet wad (ie. walters etc) to keep accuracy up. If you want to do BP I recommend reading this link:
http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm

I like Lee and started out with the Bang-n-Tap original Lee Loader soon realizing this was a bit of a pain and quite noisy, I've upgraded to a Lee Handpress with std. Lee dies. I load for 9 different calibers and every die is a Lee. For pistols I always buy Lee Deluxe sets and I own a Factory Crimp die for every caliber. Not saying this is the only way, but it's my way anyway. hehe

Really though, to see if you like it or want to do it long term, might consider this set up. Everything fits in a box and I don't need a dedicated loading area. The only smokeless powders I use for .45-70 are RL7 and Unique for round ball loads.

Here's a pic of several .45-70 loads I make:
Hornady 350 gr. FP

Hornady 300 gr. HP

Hornady 325 gr. FTX

and 157 gr. Hornady Round Ball

cwlongshot · « **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2011, 01:40:56 PM »

Quote from: original on October 19, 2011, 04:31:48 AM

I am going to get geared up to reload for my h&r 45/70 BC that I have never shot before. It seem like from the other post that the 405gr are what most people like. The local cast place has the 405gr hard cast and sized to .459 the lighter bullets are .458 My question is if they are hard cast will the .001 make that much of a difference. I was also leaning towards getting the Hornady dies. Any ideas about the pros and cons of different die sets? Any input on the brass and powder selection would help also. thanks again.

Generally speaking .001 larger diameter is normal for a lead alloy bullet. But once you start rolling your own, casting your own slugs is a kissing cousin to reloading. You can experiment. But for now, yes .459 lead or lead alloy (Hard cast) will be just fine.

I do not have the new Hornady Dies, I do have a couple sets of the "New Dimension" dies and do not like them. My first choice in dies is Redding. But I have more RCBS than anything else.

The 45-70 is quite a forgiving cartridge to load for. You can load light stuff to buffalo busters. RL7 while good, is better for the top loadings. IMR 4198 is another good one and is also better for the top loadings. IMR3031 is another long time 45-70 favorite powder... For light stuff Trail Boss and XMP 5744 are excellent choices.

What is your main concerns in loading for the 45-70?

CW

manatee1947 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2011, 02:37:35 PM »

I second the above comments, RL7 for jacketed loads (I use 300jhp & 47 gr ) and IMR4198 for most cast. I use 33.5 gr with a 330 gr cast, for me that is a tackdriver, and 385 gr with 30 gr is also an excellent load. SR4759 is also good for reduced loads, and I plan on doing more work with it in the near future. Lee makes some inexpensive molds (under $20) , I use a 340 gr flat nose and the 500gr pointed both with excellent results, you can always upgrade. A coffee can of wheel weights and a Coleman stove and you can be in business.

original · « **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2011, 11:17:57 PM »

Thanks for the info guys. My main concern with the 45/70 is just loading inexpensive and getting the best I can out of it at the range, no hunting. I picked the gun up very cheap and mainly wanted the 357 barell that came with it now it is just sitting in the safe and figured it was time to play with it a bit. I was leaning towards getting the hard cast 405gr from the local place that cast them and they have that slight tapper on the base so I dont know if I would be able to have the gas checks on them or not. I guess I will give them a try. I dont have the time or knowledge to cast my own. I also never had the redding dies so I will probably give them a try.

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** October 20, 2011, 08:33:19 AM »

Those 405 gr bullets are probably from a Bevel Base Magma mold and they do not take gas checks. The bevel is there to ease loading into straight cases. Nevertheless I do expand the case mouth slightly.

The Magma 405 gr mold comes in two versions. One has a single grease groove the other has three. I don't know enough to recommend one over the other. I have a box of the latter on the way from a commercial caster in Canada and will try them out ASAP.

I have the 350 gr bullet and it shots excellent from one of my Handi's and crappy from the other. Redding dies are top dollars, there is nothing wrong with the LEE set and I do not like the New Dimension Hdy's either. If you want to spend a few more $ go with RCBS.

For plinker loads, Trail Boss is another useful powder.

flashhole · « **Reply #6 on:** October 20, 2011, 11:51:02 AM »

This might help you a bit. With RL7 powder you will have to load light if using lead bullets. Most manuals break out the 45-70 loads into 3 catagories - Springfield Rifles - Modern Actions Like yours and the Marlins - Strong actions like the Ruger #1. Shooting lead you will be working with Springfield Rifle loads. You will find out pretty quicly if you are loading too hot. You will get excessive barrel leading. Nothing wrong with the Hornady New Dimension dies, I used them a lot when I had my 45-70. If you are interested in buying them (shown in the photos in the link) shoot me a PM. I will include the micrometer adjust. Remember, recoil on a 300 grain bullet is a lot less than recoil with a 400 grain bullet.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/49

GH1 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 20, 2011, 02:53:37 PM »

I have a Handi in .45-70 that I reload for. I use .459 cast RNFP on top of 25 gr AA5744. According to the folks at Accurate this should be right arond 1275 FPS, give or take. I've not chronied them so I can't say for certain. Of course, other powders can give you much great velocity but that's the load I happen to like.
Anyway, the .459's shot well and had no leading.
If you're looking for a light target load nothing is better in the .45-70 than Trail Boss, around 13 grains or so. Eay shooting ,reliable, and accurate.
GH1

cwlongshot · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2011, 12:53:15 AM »

Quote from: GH1 on October 20, 2011, 02:53:37 PM

I have a Handi in .45-70 that I reload for. I use .459 cast RNFP on top of 25 gr AA5744. According to the folks at Accurate this should be right arond 1275 FPS, give or take. I've not chronied them so I can't say for certain. Of course, other powders can give you much great velocity but that's the load I happen to like.
Anyway, the .459's shot well and had no leading.
If you're looking for a light target load nothing is better in the .45-70 than Trail Boss, around 13 grains or so. Easy shooting ,reliable, and accurate.
GH1

BOTH Excellent loadings I have used the 5744 many times. Both expressly designed for this use.

IMHO, FAR better choices then the pistol powders Unique and 2400.. Both excellent powders in there own right, but when used in big cavernous cases they scare me... I don't like tempting fate, she can be quite fickle.

CW

gary0529 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 21, 2011, 04:40:52 AM »

Let me +1 on the 3031 and a "light" 300 gr. bullet. Easily produces 1 1/2" groups at 100yds with scope.
I made the mistake just once of loading up a 460gr lead to full house levels and sported a beautiful purple/yellow bruised shoulder for a week(Marlin 1895 GG).

I have yet to find a whitetail that does not die quite quickly when hit in the boiler room with a 300 grain Hornady.

I am too old to appreciate getting the snot knocked out of me by recoil. YMMV but I will avoid the heavier faster loads out of respect to the recoil.

Gary

GH1 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 21, 2011, 02:14:00 PM »

IMHO, FAR better choices then the pistol powders Unique and 2400.. Both excellent powders in there own right, but when used in big cavernous cases they scare me... I don't like tempting fate, she can be quite fickle.

I couldn't agree more. Before the advent of TB folks wanting light loads had to deal with pistol powders that might be position sensitive and /or require fillers. There's plenty of data on their use. However, TB and 5744 are bulky enough to adequately fill the large case and offer reliable ignition and accurate shooting.
GH1

Swampman · « **Reply #11 on:** October 21, 2011, 02:19:13 PM »

Unique works great and you don't need gas checks or fillers. Get the .459s or even bigger if you can.

IMR-4198 is awesome.

Buckwheat Jack · « **Reply #12 on:** October 21, 2011, 06:37:58 PM »

I load for my 45-70 Handi. I use bullets cast of wheelweights in Lee 450 grain RFP mold. My favorite loads are that bullet with 9.6 grains of Unique for ploinking and 24 grains of IMR 4198 for longer range. Can go higher, but I prefer not to receive more than I get when shooting.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 21, 2011, 07:02:56 PM »

Quote from: GH1 on October 21, 2011, 02:14:00 PM

IMHO, FAR better choices then the pistol powders Unique and 2400.. Both excellent powders in there own right, but when used in big cavernous cases they scare me... I don't like tempting fate, she can be quite fickle.

I couldn't agree more. Before the advent of TB folks wanting light loads had to deal with pistol powders that might be position sensitive and /or require fillers. There's plenty of data on their use. However, TB and 5744 are bulky enough to adequately fill the large case and offer reliable ignition and accurate shooting.
GH1

X2 on Trail Boss. I just got my first 45-70 (G2 Carbine) and I've only tried Trail Boss loads so far. It was accurate with both cast 300 and 405 grainers. I love Unique and 2400 but I'm not going to tempt fate with those in a 45-70 case either.

For my next can of 45-70 powder I was thinking of either 5744 or SR 4759.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2011, 12:23:50 AM »

I don't understand the fear of Unique. It's been working well since before most of us were born. Trail Boss is more expensive and works no better.

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2011, 05:10:14 AM »

2400 is no problem with cast or jacketed bullets, I've used Blue Dot on cast as well without endangering myself or rifle.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:15:13 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 22, 2011, 12:23:50 AM

I don't understand the fear of Unique. It's been working well since before most of us were born. Trail Boss is more expensive and works no better.

I know Unique works well in the 45-70. The fear for me comes from the fact that I'm human and have the ability to make a mistake. I double charged a 45 LC case with Bullseye once. Luckily I was shooting it in a Contender and nothing happened. From that point on I vowed to only use powders that at least filled the case halfway so a double charge would be painfully obvious.

Trail Boss might be more expensive than Unique but it works just as well with light loads. In the 45-70's huge case the dollar or so extra that it costs to load a box of ammo is well worth the added safety in my opinion.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2011, 11:46:56 AM »

I have said it before and I will continue until I am gone... ANY TIME a case is charged with powder that will not cover the flash hole when that case is horizontal is a possible bomb!

That means, I'm with DB73 and will ONLY load with powders that come to 3/4 filling that case.
Its simple, if your loading powder in case and you don't get at it at least 1/2 full. That powder is NOT designed to be used in that cartridge. Anyone who knows reloading, knows ALL the most accurate loadings have near or over 100% of there case capacity with powder. Don't believe me, go look it up.

It's NOT that it will not work, you guys using it, KNOW it will. All I am saying is you are rolling the dice every time you drop the hammer... I HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN!!! I will NOT gamble and all I wish to do here is to inform because knowledge is power. Maybe I am a bit more careful than others. Some may feel too much so and that's fine. If you know what your doing and are willing to live with the repercussions associated with those decisions, fine. But new loaders may not fully understand and may simply be applying false hope because they read so and so did it or does it all the time...

I'm off my soap box now....

CW

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2011, 01:03:06 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on October 22, 2011, 11:46:56 AM

ANY TIME a case is charged with powder that will not cover the flash hole when that case is horizontal is a possible bomb!

Myth invented by people who double charged a case and didn't want to admit it.

anachronism · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2011, 07:33:28 PM »

If you're hunting deer, a 325 gr cast bullet is plenty. Deer are plenty impressed with it's performance, and at woods ranges, it will shoot through them in any direction with reasonable loads. I never favored the 405 gr. In my experiences, deer never needed quite that much killing. I always used powders in the IMR4198 range, but Unique would do too.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:55:56 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 22, 2011, 01:03:06 PM

Quote from: cwlongshot on October 22, 2011, 11:46:56 AM
ANY TIME a case is charged with powder that will not cover the flash hole when that case is horizontal is a possible bomb!

Myth invented by people who double charged a case and didn't want to admit it.

Maybe in the "swamp".

But not in my reality.

Double charging a strong action 45-70 like our handis, with unique would very likely simply result in higher velocity and bigger thump on the shoulder.

Sure it would be UNSAFE and over pressure standards for this caliber. BUT NOT nearly as grossly over pressure as if detonation occurred.
I am not referring to careless or distracted reloading practices that result in double charged cases.

CW

Swampman · « **Reply #21 on:** October 23, 2011, 05:16:03 AM »

There's no such thing as detonation. The notion was invented by folks who double charged a case while reloading.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2011, 10:20:12 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 23, 2011, 05:16:03 AM

There's no such thing as detonation. The notion was invented by folks who double charged a case while reloading.

Well, what could I have been thinking all these years, obviously I must have been mistaken.

Thank you so much for clearing that up for me Swamp!! It really is quite a load off my mind, knowing the "truth"...

CW

BTW, Keep a stirrin' there swamp, one day you will get it right.

Swampman · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2011, 12:39:01 PM »

You are mistaken and that has been proven in this instance.