Author Topic: Long Cecil (Read 13016 times)

Double D · « **Reply #90 on:** February 12, 2012, 03:56:41 AM »

Yeah but Jim, its coming UPS!

BoomLover · « **Reply #91 on:** February 12, 2012, 04:03:22 PM »

Whoops!

Double D · « **Reply #92 on:** February 12, 2012, 06:29:08 PM »

Scheduled Delivery:
Monday, 02/13/2012, By End of Day

Last Location:
Arrived - Billings, MT, United States, Sunday, 02/12/2012

Double D · « **Reply #93 on:** February 13, 2012, 01:05:39 PM »

Heard the doorbell ring and got there just as the UPS lady was walking away, she looked back at me and gave me a dirty look.. She always gives me a dirty look, but then the only thing I ever get delivered by UPS is heavy stuff.

You can see UPS tried to break it, but failed

Here is what was inside. That little shiny barrel is a 24", .458 barrel that will become a 450/500 on one of my Martini's.

These are no little bullets...

First learning point, 20mm bullets are bore riders

Tomorrow I will take some measurements, include a casting of the bore and start scaling to draw.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #94 on:** February 14, 2012, 07:33:55 AM »

Happy to see my packing surpasses the efforts of UPS to destroy packages and lose items.....
the little 24" 458 barrel looks like it belongs to a 10-22..........
I can't wait to see the progress on this project..... have fun!

moose53 · « **Reply #95 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:14:53 PM »

I see you ordered 20mm bullets . Does someone know if 40mm bullets are available?

Double D · « **Reply #96 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:26:05 PM »

Sure, they are, just they won't fit Long Cecil! http://www.cdvs.us/

moose53 · « **Reply #97 on:** February 17, 2012, 07:32:24 AM »

Thank You, I was able to contact them and receive photos and price list . May just have to make some myself , cost for buying them would add up quick.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #98 on:** February 17, 2012, 08:55:26 AM »

Weather they call themselves Big Sky Surplus or CDVS their prices are a bit high.........

Double D · « **Reply #99 on:** February 18, 2012, 04:34:35 PM »

I did the bore cast this afternoon.

Long Cecil had a groove diameter of 4.1 inch. This 20mm barrel has odd rifling 9 grooves with a groove diameter of .816.

Straight mathematics gives a scale of .199.

Using the known measurements of Long Cecil, I made an excel spreadsheet and came up up with the following numbers.

.199 rounded to hundredths is .20 or 1/5 scale. That is plenty close and will be a lot easier to work to.

Now to come up with measurements that are not known.

Double D · « **Reply #100 on:** February 19, 2012, 02:39:05 PM »

Well it looks like it's time to start drawing.

I took this drawing and enlarged it to print out 11" x 17"

Using my dial caliper, I took measurements from several know dimensions and all the unknown that I need to draw. I plug the numbers in and came up with this chart.

You may be wondering how I can get any precision measurements using dial calipers on a photocopy. First this isn't going to be a precise detailed scale model. This will be a representative model that will look like and work like Long Cecil. There will be no doubt when you see the finished gun it is Long Cecil.

Right now the plan is to build the profile up using DOM sleeves. Trunnions will threaded into the 20mm barrel and welded to the trunnion ring. The sleeves will be attached with Devcon steel or commercial JB weld.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #101 on:** February 21, 2012, 07:50:22 AM »

Are you going to build all the rings? Reading your chart it looks like you combined a few. 14 separate bands would be alot of fun to try and fit. This sounds really ambitious but I believe its nothing you cant figure out. This will really set the bar high.

Why not farm out the trunion ring? Have someone tig the trunions on? Is this because you are going to thread the trunions into the 20mm barrel?

When you are done I have a 75 mm barrel laying around you can build and send back to me.

Double D · « **Reply #102 on:** February 21, 2012, 08:53:45 AM »

Quote from: jamesfrom180 on February 21, 2012, 07:50:22 AM

Are you going to build all the rings? Reading your chart it looks like you combined a few. 14 separate bands would be alot of fun to try and fit. This sounds really ambitious but I believe its nothing you cant figure out. This will really set the bar high.

Why not farm out the trunion ring? Have someone tig the trunions on? Is this because you are going to thread the trunions into the 20mm barrel?

When you are done I have a 75 mm barrel laying around you can build and send back to me.

Right now the plan is to have barrel covered by a sleeve. The first ring of reinforce with be a rear section, trunnion section and front reinforce section. The second reinforce will be on one piece.

The sleeve is two diameters and that will necessitate the three piece first ring. I will be farming out the tig welding my welding skills are limited to gas welding by melting metal together...describing what I do with a torch to metal cannot described as welding.

Since I am gluing the rings on, the trunnion will go through the trunnion ring and sleeve and screw into the barrel. The trunnion ring will bee glued to the sleeve. In order the take stress off the glue joint the trunnions will be welded to the ring. This will also keep the trunnion from loosening up, backing out of the screw threads as the will if not welded.

This 20mm barrel will be heavy enough...besides 75 mm would scale out 3/4 scale and could not be shoot it at the CBCC.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #103 on:** February 21, 2012, 09:29:40 AM »

elegant and simple!!!
Why thread the trunions into the barrel? I must be missing something as you will place the trunion ring on the barrel up against the shoulder turned into the barrel correct? Then insert the trunnions and weld to the ring. Wouldn't the ring eliminate the trunnions from "backing out"? As the shoulder and trunnions in essence pin the t-ring in place?

I was just joking about the 75mm. If I remember correctly that is about a soda can size bore. Would be a neat mountain style gun though. I have been watching this dreaming about a deck style mount.

Double D · « **Reply #104 on:** February 21, 2012, 11:11:16 AM »

Quote from: jamesfrom180 on February 21, 2012, 09:29:40 AM

elegant and simple!!!
Why thread the trunions into the barrel? I must be missing something as you will place the trunion ring on the barrel up against the shoulder turned into the barrel correct? Then insert the trunnions and weld to the ring. Wouldn't the ring eliminate the trunnions from "backing out"? As the shoulder and trunnions in essence pin the t-ring in place?

I was just joking about the 75mm. If I remember correctly that is about a soda can size bore. Would be a neat mountain style gun though. I have been watching this dreaming about a deck style mount.

The trunnion ring abuts up against the shoulder that is on the sleeve over the barrel. The sleeve is glued to the barrel. The Trunnion will directly attach to the barrel making a more solid connection. The trunnion can be threaded or just a stud pressed inro the barrel. but it must be welded to the trunnion ring to dissipate the forward thrust.

Double D · « **Reply #105 on:** March 03, 2012, 06:46:22 PM »

Been doing some drawing, so I thought I would post what I got.

First the basic barrel. This is the 20mm the barrel as is cut to length.

The actual scaled length of the barrel is 24.16 inches. 24 inches is easier to work with.

Here is the sleeve.

The diameter at the minor end of the taper scales to 1.57 inches. I changed it to 1.75 so it wouldn't be so thin.

Double D · « **Reply #106 on:** March 07, 2012, 03:22:41 PM »

Okay here is Long Cecil with the first reinforcing ring layer.

Double D · « **Reply #107 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:13:35 PM »

And the second reinforcing ring.

Here is the build up so far.

Tomorrow, I will look this over and come up with a preliminary material list.

Then I'll start on the breech.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #108 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:08:16 AM »

Looking good and pip-pip

Passing through the thread and was wondering if you were going to have the full width of the trunnion rim base go into the ring or are you going to reduce the diameter and relief the rim base? With your intention to glue the trunnion I was wondering if one or the other is going to be easier.

Double D · « **Reply #109 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:04:53 AM »

Right now I am considering making the Trunnion ring and sleeve out of one piece of tubing. The Trunnion will through the sleeve and be pressed in 20 mm bbl. Ttrunnion will the be welded to the sleeve. From what I can tell there are no rimbases on Long Cecil. The end of the trunnion has a cap that is large than trunnion diameter.

jamesfrom180 · « **Reply #110 on:** March 09, 2012, 04:39:19 AM »

Thanks mis-read the drawing at the beginning. This is what makes these improvised pieces kinda fun.

jamesbeat · « **Reply #111 on:** March 09, 2012, 08:32:53 AM »

I had to chuckle when I read the name of this gun.

We have a supplier at work who's English is atrocious.
We always hate it when we get deliveries from him, because his invoices are almost impossible to understand.

I live on Long Island, and one of the boxes we received in a delivery was labeled 'Long Alan'

I wonder if Long Alan is related to Long Cecil?

Double D · « **Reply #112 on:** April 04, 2012, 05:53:41 AM »

I found the copy of Long Cecil Plans from The Model Engineer and Electrician Vol. XXX No. 662 January 1, 1914 that Colin sent me. I need to sit down and read the article. The drawings does give me some clues to dimensions of the carriage, which have alluded me.

The Letter to ATF was sent January 31, so a response should come anyday.

Double D · « **Reply #113 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:55:41 PM »

Quote from: Double D on January 31, 2012, 09:21:27 AM

Well the check is in the mail so to speak...sent this letter this morning.

January 31, 2012
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA

Dear Sir or Madam,

In 1899 during the 2nd Anglo Boer War, the Boer Army laid siege to the town of Kimberly, South Africa. The British army forces defending the town were out ranged by the Boer Artillery and could not return effective fire. The engineers of the De Beers Diamond Mine used common materials found in the mine engineering shop and in 22 days built a 4.1 in breech loading field gun to engage the Boer guns. This unique historic gun became known as Long Cecil.

I wish to build a scale model replica of this gun. The gun will be built as a hobby project and will be used to shoot blanks for signal purposes and projectiles for target shooting.

The gun will be built as close as possible to the original.

•   It will have a miniature screw breech with an 1877 de Bang obturation system.
•   Loading the gun will be via loose black powder. For safety purposes the powder will be contained in tin foil packets.
•   Cast lead or standard surplus projectiles will be used for target shooting.
•   The original gun used typical mid 1800 friction primers for ignition. This model will not have sufficient mass to safely use friction primers so ignition will be via common black powder cannon fuse.

I am aware of the Antique replica provisions of GCA and NFA and since the original gun was made 1899 to 1900 I know it will not qualify as an antique. It may qualify under the antique ignition provision.

Please advise what if any permits are needed to build this model gun in either 1/5 scale using a surplus 20mm barrel or 1/8 scale using a surplus 50 BMG barrel.

Sincerely yours,

Douglas B Dickens

Cut Bank, MT 59427

Cross your fingers.

Well I sent this letter last week.

Quote

Dear Sir or Madam,

On January 31, 2012 I sent the attached letter requesting determination on what procedures to follow to apply to build the model cannon referred to in the letter.
It has been more than 90 days since this letter was submitted. Can you advise the status of this determination request?

Right now I don't see this project getting started before winter 2013-2014

KABAR2 · « **Reply #114 on:** May 18, 2012, 03:32:39 AM »

There is an NFA tracking program that shows how long it takes from time a permit is applied for to approval it is averaging 6 to 7 months.... while this is a query depending on the agents case load it could be 4 to 5 months before you get a response ATF grinds along slowly and has gotten slower during the present administration....

Double D · « **Reply #115 on:** July 13, 2012, 02:27:27 PM »

Well, I sent a second letter in May asking for status of my request. I got no response.

Earlier this week I sent a letter to my congressman asking or help.

Hurry up and wait

keith44 · « **Reply #116 on:** July 13, 2012, 06:22:58 PM »

I have written a total of two letters to the ATF, both back in the early to mid 1990's. I have yet to receive even an acknowledgement of having written to them.

Good luck

Double D · « **Reply #117 on:** July 14, 2012, 01:38:08 AM »

When I write a letter I expect a response to, I get an answer. I will have an answer to this one. When then answer is not timely, then I move the issue up the chain.

In fairness ATF's Technology Branch have been one of the most helpful government agencies I have ever dealt with. Their response in the past have always been prompt, courteous and knowledgeable. I hope this is just an exception.

moose53 · « **Reply #118 on:** July 14, 2012, 02:39:48 AM »

Double D , I too am waiting for a response from the ATF about the breach loading bowling ball cannon. So I am following your post closely ,thanks for your lead in this matter.

armorer77 · « **Reply #119 on:** July 14, 2012, 04:26:14 AM »

There is still hope . 15 years ago I wrote the ATF about building a semi auto shotgun . They promptly replied that it was not legal as presented . Silence means they haven't found a reason to say no . Ed